https://www.quora.com/What-do-Protestants-and-Catholics-think-of-Mormons/answer/James-Hough-1

[Stephen168]

Something that’s happened with a lot of historically heretical bodies is their eventually coming around to doctrinal orthodoxy.

Take the early Monophysites (who became today’s Oriental Orthodox) and Nestorians (who became todays Assyrians) - they used to proclaim a heretical Christology, but today they’ve come to an orthodox formulation for their Christology.

The same principle effected the Adventists, they used to hold some really fringe beliefs and it was questionable if their baptisms were valid, but now they hold more orthodox doctrine.

Likewise Mormons in the 19th and early 20th centuries held clearly heretical views, but over time and today they are becoming much more orthodox.

Maybe, slowly, over time, God is letting these groups better understand him and guiding them into a better, fuller understanding of himself.

I think you are correct, but at a cost.

Joseph Smith was the founder of the latter-day-saint movement and he led them into heterodoxy then out of Christianity all together. As Mormonism returns to Christianity, by rejecting polygamy, allowing blacks to the priesthood, accepting the idea of a trinity, rejecting Joseph Smith’s definition of what it means for the Book of Mormon to be ‘true’, and accepting philosophy as a way to the truth, I think they will return to to their roots and Christianity. Returning to the beliefs of God as a spirit, creation ex nihilo, one uncreated God, the Christian trinity, and the Book of Mormon as an allegory can’t be too far away. After Mormonism rejects the teachings of Joseph Smith, how can they still believe he was a prophet who restored Christianity. Therefore, what is the reason to become a Mormon.

 

[AngelaMarie]

This is interesting, indeed.
Yes, Mormonism today is very much nothing like what Joseph Smith, and then Brigham Young, ruled over.

It will be curious to see as they continue to evolve, if Mormonism will give up it’s heretical doctrines and become Christian (in a theological definition) sense.

If anyone has studied early Mormonism and looked at 21st century Mormonism, they clearly are not the same. 19th century Mormonism is more evident the fundamentalist Mormon communities (ie Warren Jeffs)

I did take a look at the website and they seem to be taking on the liturgical seasons of Advent and Lent more. Clearly a break from their past, and more of an adherence to Christiandom

 

[AngelaMarie]

They will have to reject the idea of the Book of Mormon as being historical fact, that is for sure. But doesn’t that make all of Mormonism collapse? If the BoM is not a historical book of ancient American peoples and cultures, then Smith wasn’t a prophet? And where did the BoM come from if not from some purported golden plates?

I predict (and not in a prophetic way) that Mormonism will continue to pull away from it’s "Joseph Smith the prophet of the restoration and book of mormon translator " roots

It just can’t stand that kind of honest and intelligent scrutiny and remain what it all claims to be.
In the long run, it’s just another one of several “restoration movements” that came out of 19th century America. Nothing more.

 

[Stephen168]

They will have to reject the idea of the Book of Mormon as being historical fact, that is for sure. But doesn’t that make all of Mormonism collapse? If the BoM is not a historical book of ancient American peoples and cultures, then Smith wasn’t a prophet? And where did the BoM come from if not from some purported golden plates?

As a kid, I went to Boy Scouts with my Mormon friends to a Mormon Church. It was a time when the Mormon Church taught what Joseph Smith taught about the Book of Mormon being a history of all the American Indians. It was also a time when the priesthood ban against blacks was still in force.

Even then the Mormon Church’s view of the Book of Mormon was not consistent with what scientists were saying about the history of the American Indians. I reasoned that if they (Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the Mormon Church) were wrong about the history of the American Indians then Joseph Smith was not a prophet. I could never take them seriously as a religion.

My Mormon friend and I went to the World’s Fair in Spokane, Washington and he was excited to show me the Mormon Church’s exhibit telling the story about how the golden plates were translated. The building was designed to look like the plates. I guess that story is gone now as well as the claim that the Book of Mormon is a history of all the American Indians.

 

[TOmNossor]

My response is related to the OP – namely, what do Catholics think of LDS beliefs. I summarized my thoughts as best I could. I don’t have a further points to discuss in the context of this thread. I would like to see you put up a post to educate people about LDS doctrines.

Hello Lisa,
Last time I got a request for a post from a Catholic here at Catholic Answers Forums, it didn’t go well. This was my returning post after a three week “vacation.”

Doctrines Embraced by the CoJCoLDS and Previously Believed by the Early Church ... Using the ECF and Patristic Scolars Non-Catholic Religions

Hello Stephen, I have no idea what will be shown on this thread, I am going to ask. What I believe could be shown is that the ECF were not Catholic. That when you said, “The ECF were Catholic not Mormon” you were only half right as I pointed out on the other thread. Instead, the earliest ECF were EDS (early day saints). The ECF were EDS. A POST-Apostolic authority developed that relied upon a faith delivered via scripture and public revelation but which maintained that NOBODY could receive a…

I hope this goes better.
I am always at a loss as how to respond to the celebration and condemnation (I do have some persecuation complex) I feel in the words of the most recent posts in this thread (The CoJCoLDS is changing and becoming more Christian). I do believe the CoJCoLDS ran from Christians who killed their prophet and this running was not only the physical exodus to Utah, but some theological emphasis that was ultimately an imbalence that needed to be corrected. Thus as LDS initeract with other Christians and become more comfortable with ourselves, we are correcting some of this. That being said, in 1838 when asked something similar to what you asked, Joseph Smith stated:

The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it

I do not think it likely however that the CoJCoLDS will melt into the rest of Christianity. I believe two doctrines are particularly important here:

1. In the early 19th century, there needed to be a “restoration” of Christianity. This occured as God worked through Joseph Smith the first prophet in the “latter-days.”
2. God leads His Chruch through leaders who receive “public (for the WHOLE WORLD) revelation.” This was God’s way in the Old Testament, was God’s way during the time of the Apostles, and is God’s way today. There have been periods when such was absent from the earth (which doesn’t mean God was silent or abandoned His children - I believe Thomas Aquinas received what he considered “private revelation”), but God’s economy works best when there are leaders who receive public revelation and guide God’s Church.

I can say a lot about either of those doctrines (or some others if you would like).
Thank you again for your interaction. IRL I have many Catholic friends who I beleive I interact with as you discribe. My goal here is a strong but honest and reasonably charitable response to what I frequently consider to be unfair criticisms of my faith. IRL I seldom see people claim my faith is “evil” as happerns here explicitly and implicitly.
Charity, TOm

 

[njlisa]

@TOmNossor

Hi:
I checked out this thread and it has been closed. The problem with these discussions is that they often become heated and uncharitable.

And just so you know, I never said that all LDS believers will become gods and produce spiritual children. As I understand it, only those who are most worthy receive this privilege.

If you want to educate me about LDS beliefs, I suppose that’s OK. But, in all honesty, I have done a lot of study on my own and in discussions with my LDS friend.

I’m not hostile. On the contrary, I have been diplomatic and respectful. Note, I never use the term “Mormon” except in reference to the Book of Mormon. I think that says a lot about me.

A very Merry Christmas to you.

Lisa

Hello Lisa,
Last time I got a request for a post from a Catholic here at Catholic Answers Forums, it didn’t go well. This was my returning post after a three week “vacation.”

Hello Stephen, I have no idea what will be shown on this thread, I am going to ask. What I believe could be shown is that the ECF were not Catholic. That when you said, “The ECF were Catholic not Mormon” you were only half right as I pointed out on the other thread. Instead, the earliest ECF were EDS (early day saints). The ECF were EDS. A POST-Apostolic authority developed that relied upon a faith delivered via scripture and public revelation but which maintained that NOBODY could receive a…

 

[TOmNossor]

@TOmNossor
I checked out this thread and it has been closed. The problem with these discussions is that they often become heated and uncharitable.

I fear I resemble that remark more than I should.
And yes such is common.

And just so you know, I never said that all LDS believers will become gods and produce spiritual children. As I understand it, only those who are most worthy receive this privilege.

I was actually suggesting that Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that God's greatest gift to His faithful children consists of becoming gods and having 'eternal increase,' but that it is not IMO certain what 'eternal increase' consists of.
I like Ostler in his Exploring Mormon Thought series generally reject the idea of an eternal regress of Gods. Other than in response to critics, LDS do not regularly (almost zero) talk about either of these ideas.
So my point was that 'eternal increase' might not include being gods of planets and…

If you want to educate me about LDS beliefs, I suppose that's OK. But, in all honesty, I have done a lot of study on my own and in discussions with my LDS friend.

I was responding to your original request, but I suspect you were enjoining me to do things like offer LDS thoughts or critical books rather than point out that few at Catholic Answers would point to any book by a non-Catholic as a "fair criticism."

I'm not hostile. On the contrary, I have been diplomatic and respectful. Note, I never use the term "Mormon" except in reference to the Book of Mormon. I think that says a lot about me.

I agree and and thank you. I suspect you could probably appreciate how I am tempted to respond to the speculation of Stephen and AngelMarie with me speculating about the future of Catholicism to bring such home. This is a minor thing and I thought (generally think, but have now said …) it is best to refrain.

Anyway, thank you and Merry Christmas to you too.
Charity, TOm

P.S. Merry Christmas to all on this thread and at Catholic Answers!!!

 

[halogirl]

I have met lovely members of the LDS. Equally I have a good friend from the USA whose family has been ripped apart by it (including things as mentioned here such as he couldn’t attend the temple weddings of his daughters). He described some of his kids as ill equipped for the real world thanks to their LDS mom and the fact they live ‘in a bubble despite his best efforts’. I think the majority of them mean well and live good lives but I think the OP needs to keep studying go into it with your eyes open if this is your path and remember you can always come back to the RC church. I don’t want to push you away further from the RC church but surely the idea you can ‘become a God’ is at worst blasphemy and at best very egotistical.

 

[AngelaMarie]

Halogirl,

This is wise and informed counsel from an adult to a teenager.
Keep studying. Make an informed decision.
Even though Sarah has not posted, she is indeed, still reading this thread, based upon her activity

 

[lilypadrees]

Mormons aren’t Christians.

All anyone has to do is research them to find out they aren’t Christians. I used to think they were until I researched their beliefs and listened to their version of what the Scriptures meant.

And to have more than one Mormon tell me that the Book Of Mormon is more important to them than the Bible and they need it to explain the Bible to them.

 

[halogirl]

When you are that age you are so passionate about what you believe let us pray that she is guided by God

 

[AngelaMarie]

It is a fair statement, at least when I was Mormon, that the Mormon church held the Book of Mormon in higher esteem then they did the Bible. It was taught that the Book of Mormon was the “most correct book on the earth”, and that the Bible was full of errors.

So what you posted is a fair statement, at least when it comes to Mormonism of the 80’s and 90’s.

What their leaders teach today about the Bible and the BoM, I simply don’t know

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

Any religion that changes so much in its core beliefs seems a little man made.

 

[lilypadrees]

According to the Mormons I’ve spoken with in the past year, their views of the BOM remain the same.

 

[halogirl]

I won’t be rude to anyone but it’s basically Victorian Scientology. God has allowed it to happen in order to lead people back to Him. Whether that’s by being in opposition to it or for those who follow it to try and engage with Him we can not know. What I will say (and say of everyone who posts here) the church is irresistible. We are all looking at it. We get people of all faiths and none here and if they are here regularly they are looking into the shop window whether they realise/admit it to themselves or not . I remember looking at Pope Benedict when I was at one of the worsens times in my life when he visited the UK and invited people disillusioned with the Church of England to join up with a cheeky wave of his hand. I just knew it was right.

 

[TOmNossor]

… the OP needs to keep studying go into it with your eyes open if this is your path and remember you can always come back to the RC church. I don’t want to push you away further from the RC church but surely the idea you can ‘become a God’ is at worst blasphemy and at best very egotistical.

Let me respond to the last sentence first then the middle (I may get to the first part later).

The Catholic must believe that the “idea you can ‘become a God’” (though as a LDS I always say ‘god’ when referring to the possible future state of humans) is not blasphemy. It is present in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Catholic Answers WRONGLY tries to empty this idea of any impact, but before the 4th century it was regularly discussed and no ECF placed any limits upon the final state of deified mankind. Today, Catholics IMO should not embrace the muted ideas present in Catholic Answers tracts, but should embrace the view held by Catholic scholar Daniel Keating presented in his bood Deification and Grace. Where they to do so, they would still not align with the beliefs I hold or the beliefs I believe the earlier ECF held, but they would be close (and they couldn’t call the mere “idea” blasphemy).

Now, I have offered nothing as direct advice to the OP. I however agree that “to keep studying” is good advice. I think unbiased studying (a goal never achieved, but worthy of pursuit) will lead on to profound respect for the strength of the position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints AND might (has in the past) lead one to becoming a member.

That being said, while I have worshiped reason (something that is inappropriate) on occasion and I believe using faith and reason is worthy and wonderful, I do not believe that God calls only those who study. One of the anti-Mormon poster on this board is fond of saying, “You have got to be kinda smart to be a Catholic.” I believe he is trying to suggest I am not smart, but either way, I do not want to belong to a church ONLY for smart people. God has made folks who are smart and folks who are gifted in other ways. I think EVERYONE can sincerely ask God to guide them to Him. Sometimes the answers come via study and other times they come via profound contact with God. St. Thomas Aquinas’s contact with God was so powerful, he called all he had ever written “straw” and refused to write more or clarify what he meant. The bulk of Catholic theologians are Thomists and thus they base their theological reflections upon Aquinas’s “straw.”

Joseph Smith said:

Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject

.

I believe Joseph Smith did (I believe Thomas Aquinas did), and I hope to do so on some future day.

Merry Christmas to everyone!

Charity, TOm

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

The Catholic must believe that the “idea you can ‘become a God’” (though as a LDS I always say ‘god’ when referring to the possible future state of humans) is not blasphemy. It is present in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The fact that you continue to try to mislead others with this statement is laughable. We do not become gods by nature, but we share in the deification of God in heaven by grace.

Blessings, and merry Christmas.

 

[TOmNossor]

I have met lovely members of the LDS. Equally I have a good friend from the USA whose family has been ripped apart by it (including things as mentioned here such as he couldn’t attend the temple weddings of his daughters). He described some of his kids as ill equipped for the real world thanks to their LDS mom and the fact they live ‘in a bubble despite his best efforts’. I think the majority of them mean well and live good lives but I think

My father was told by Catholics that he needed to dissuade his son from becoming a LDS because I would disengage from him and become a LDS. He confided in me years later that he was pleasantly surprised that this was not the case.
Per my observation (from a distance) much of the “blame” for the unfortunate withdrawal of relationships over religious change is a product of the sin on the part of one or both folks on the opposite sides of some religious change. The CoJCoLDS teaches against such things and I would expect that the Catholic Church does too.
Charity, TOm

 

[lokisuperfan]

@AngelaMarie, I haven’t been posting because at this point, I’ve already made up my mind. I even talked to my parents about it, and, after a terrible initial reaction that included my dad blaming the kid I told you about who first told me about LDS (who is a very close friend of mine so I did argue with my dad for blaming him), they were more supportive than I thought they would be. I’m very surprised at how long this discussion has gone on for, and especially how many replies it has compared to other discussions. Even though it’s not the same people as it was in the beginning, more fresh souls have stepped in to keep it going. It’s more so entertaining than it is influential at this point, because like I said, I’ve made up my mind. And I can always come back to the Catholic Church if I find out it isn’t what I want.

Merry Christmas to all…

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

The Catholic must believe that the “idea you can ‘become a God’” (though as a LDS I always say ‘god’ when referring to the possible future state of humans) is not blasphemy. It is present in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The fact that you continue to try to mislead others with this statement is laughable. We do not become gods by nature, but we share in the deification of God in heaven by grace.

Blessings, and merry Christmas.

As I review your comment perhaps you are not trying to claim I am dishonest. Are you? Is this laughable because of my stupidity or my dishonest? I must admit it doesn’t TASTE good to read it.

What the Catholic who wishest to be in alignment with the ECF and other educated Catholics for centuries (after the 4th century too) should believe is that to “become partakers of the divine nature” is in fact to become gods. I am not claiming that Catholics should believe that they become the One who created ex nihilo, but whatever it is to be called “gods” Catholic should believe they can be.
I recommended Daniel Keatings book Deification and Grace. This is IMO the Catholic view that should be embraced. The Catholic Answers documents are IMO quite poor in this area.

Here is a bit about Keating:

Dr. Daniel A. Keating – St. Paul Center

And Merry Christmas to you again.
Charity, TOm