https://www.quora.com/What-do-Protestants-and-Catholics-think-of-Mormons/answer/James-Hough-1

[lokisuperfan]

Plural marriage is NOT allowed by the Mormon faith. It used to be, but it isn’t anymore. The practice of a man seeking satisfaction or a child from another woman outside his marriage is allowed, but ONLY with the consent of his wife, and only with virgins (I think this is called an open marriage. It might be called something different. If you know, feel free to tell, 'cuz I’m curious too). He MAY NOT take another wife for himself as long as the first one is still alive and loyal. So the concept of plural relationships is very well a possibility, but ONLY with the consent of his wife. Anything done without the consent of his wife is considered adultery and can be punished as such.

 

[AngelaMarie]

It is not allowed in THIS life, but it is very much allowed in the next.
As I said before, both the president of the church and his 1st counselor are sealed to two women each as they both were widowers.

Mormons do believe that marriages continue into the next life. It’s why they don’t have vows of “until death do you part”, because they dont believe that marriage end with the death of a spouse.

Now that being said, only men can have more than one wife. Women can only be sealed to one man.

 

[AngelaMarie]

The practice of a man seeking satisfaction or a child from another woman outside his marriage is allowed, but ONLY with the consent of his wife, and only with virgins (I think this is called an open marriage. It might be called something different. If you know, feel free to tell, 'cuz I’m curious too)

No, this is not allowed. In order to not be committing adultery, he has to be married to the woman. He may not seek sex outside of the marital bond

 

[AngelaMarie]

D&C 132 (God says he will destroy Emma, Joseph’s wife, if she does not abide by the “new and everlasting covenant” …ie plural marriage. So Emma’s consent was not needed)

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and [acleave]) unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be [bdestroyed], saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

 

[njlisa]

@lokisuperfan:

Here’s what I would say of the LDS Church:

We share the doctrine of the atonement and the sacrament of Communion. We share many moral principles. We admire your commitment to good deeds. Nevertheless, the LDS Church proclaims novel doctrines and events not found in mainstream Christian tradition.

• The idea that God the father was once a man and continues as a divine being of flesh and blood is incompatible with Catholic and Protestant belief.
• The Catholic Church teaches apostolic succession, an unbroken chain of authority handed down through the leaders of the church.
• We don’t believe that the Gospel needs to be restored. So we don’t recognize the authority of Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon.
• We don’t believe that Jesus is Jehovah and creator of earth.
• We don’t believe in levels of heaven.
• We don’t believe people can become gods who can create spirit children.
• We don’t believe in baptism for the dead.
• We don’t recognize the LDS president as a prophet. Even the pope does not have that power.

I am not insulting your beliefs. I am just stating that LDS doctrines radically differ from Catholic and Protestant tradition. You must believe the same, or your wouldn’t try to convert mainstream Christian-identified people to your church.

Here’s my conclusion: the LDS Church is a unique religious movement that draws on some Judeo-Christian beliefs.

God bless you and I hope you find this answer helpful.

 

[njlisa]

@lokisuperfan

Sarah, all Catholic teaching is based on Scripture and tradition as interpreted by the authority of the church. These official teachings can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here is the passage regarding self-stimulation:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

God bless you. I hope you find this new information helpful.

 

[TOmNossor]

Since you can’t even consider be coming Mormon until your 18 because you won’t have your parents permission, I would encourage you to do your “homework” and research Mormonism. The “good, bad, and ugly” so to speak. Read not only literature that supports it, but also fair criticism of it as well.

What book do you consider to be “fair criticism” of the Catholic Church? Is there any book written that you believe presents a fair and balanced argument as to why one should not be Catholic and should leave the Catholic faith.
I consider The New Mormon Challenge to be a good faith effort to interact with LDS thought and fairly criticize my faith by non-LDS. I purchased and read this book. I believe the LDS response to this book is POWERFUL (and it is available for free onine), but there is a minor issue in the The New Mormon Challenge that is not IMO completely addressed. From a 100% naturalistic perspective Dan Vogel and Brett Metcalf are nice folks whose “logical positivism” will damage Catholicism just as it damages the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I have experienced God in ways that Vogel and Metcalf believe are impossible.

I have read about a dozen anti-Mormon books other than The New Mormon Challenge and I do not consider any of them to be “fair.”

I do not care to hear what you consider to be a “fair criticism” of the faith you REJECT. But, I suggest that if you cannot name a book that is a “fair criticism” of Catholicism written by non-Catholics, then you are pointing towards a UNICORN. Sounds great but it is not real.

So The New Mormon Challenge is a book written by non-LDS Christians that is a “fair criticism” of my faith.

What book written by non-Catholics is a “fair criticism” of Catholicism?

Charity, TOm

BTW, The New Mormon Challenge was written by the authors of this article and some other scholars. This article IMO well describes most of the anti-Mormon literature celebrated and quoted here.

Mormon Apologetic Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect: Losing the Battle and Not Knowing It?

 

[AngelaMarie]

What book written by non-Catholics is a “fair criticism” of Catholicism?

Tom, I am sure you know that there are tons of criticism of the Catholic Church out there. All one has to do is listen to the media etc. A lot of it is biased, sure, but a lot of it is fair.

I know of no particular book, per se, but there certainly is all kinds of literature out there. Tons of it, though Allan’s All the Pope’s Men: The Inside Story of How the Vatican Really Thinks is a worthy read if one wants to understand the Vatican better.

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

What book written by non-Catholics is a “fair criticism” of Catholicism?

Tom, I am sure you know that there are tons of criticism of the Catholic Church out there. All one has to do is listen to the media etc. A lot of it is biased, sure, but a lot of it is fair.

I know of no particular book, per se, but there certainly is all kinds of literature out there. Tons of it, though Allan’s All the Pope’s Men: The Inside Story of How the Vatican Really Thinks is a worthy read if one wants to understand the Vatican better.

I recommend Blake Ostler’s Exploring Mormon Thought series. It is a thorough examination of LDS theological understanding.

But Ostler is a LDS philosopher (and lawyer).
Allen is a Catholic journalist.

I stand by my suggestion that you are unaware of a “fair criticism” of you faith by a non-Catholic.

I have evaluated many dozens and read about a dozen anti-Mormon books. I find the conclusions in The Nee Mormon Challenge to be wrong, but they TRIED to understand the CoJCoLDS and thus their criticism is IMO fair. The other dozens are much less so.

The call for a “fair criticism” is a call for a unicorn.

I recommend a number of Catholic books by Catholic authors who present truth at odds with the Catholic Answers narrative, and IMO deal with the history in the way pure apologetic books do not. Eno’s Rise of the Papacy and Father Sullivan’s From Apostles to Bishops

I have some LDS authors who I think deal well and fairly with the history here, but I doubt you would call them fair

I so not think I have read an anti-Catholic book that was not actually arguing for my faith. I an a non-Catholic and I this need the information written by faithful Catholics to understand what Catholics believe. Jesus, Peter, and the Keys is pure apologetics and very flawed. Eno is a necessary correction, but I knew too much of the ECF to believe Dalgreen et al. Without perspectives like Eno’s being valid, history disproves Catholicism. Most anti-Catholic writers demonstrate that Dalgreen cherry picks history and conclude Catholicism MUST be fiction.
Most anti-Mormon books take a simple view of the CoJCoLDS and show it flawed. That is why only The New Mormon Challenge is “fair criticism.” It interacts with thoughtful LDS belief not simplistic ideas. I have seen almost zero criticisms here at Catholic Answers that do not fail die to their unwillingness to interact with thoughtful LDD faith.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

Nevertheless, the LDS Church proclaims novel doctrines and events not found in mainstream Christian tradition.
…
I am not insulting your beliefs. I am just stating that LDS doctrines radically differ from Catholic and Protestant tradition. You must believe the same, or your wouldn’t try to convert mainstream Christian-identified people to your church.

Here’s my conclusion: the LDS Church is a unique religious movement that draws on some Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Hello njlisa!
I like your list and should point out that it would be a very good place to begin discussions.
I would offer a number of additional things concerning a few of the items, most radically is that LDS doctrine does not demand that “becoming gods” include producing spirit children though it is often believed whereas “becoming gods” in the Catholic tradition includes limits absent in the LDS tradition (and absent in the earliest ECF too IMO).
I also see much in the Christian tradition that contradict your statement, “LDS Church proclaims novel doctrines and events not found in mainstream Christian tradition,” but there are also novel doctrine not evident in the ECF (just fewer than many realize)
Finally, Catholicism is very committed to the evangelization of non-Catholic Christians so your statement, “I am just stating that LDS doctrines radically differ from Catholic and Protestant tradition. You must believe the same, or your wouldn’t try to convert mainstream Christian-identified people to your church.” also requires qualification.

That being said, I think your post is not an example of the type of literature I have been critisizing.
Thank you!
Charity, TOm

 

[AngelaMarie]

If you don’t feel that there is fair criticism from non-Mormon writers, then I suggest that there are Mormon writers out there that Sarah can read.

Fawn Brodie ~ No Man Knowns my History
Grant Palmer ~ An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins
Todd Compton~ In Sacred Loneliness: The Plura Wives of Joseph Smith
D. Michael Quinn~Early Mormonism and the Magic World View
Richard Bushman~Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (I think he is/ was Mormon? Not sure)

These are Mormon historians who, IMO are fair. IIRC they were excommunicated. The Mormon church, again IIRC, never said that what they wrote was wrong. Infact, I would say that the Mormon Church became more transparent in it’s history because of these historians were sincere in their pursuit of what the actual history of the church is.

Fawn Brodie was a niece of David O McCay and was given access to the archives of the Church that was kept from the public.

I believe that one of the other historians worked in the Church Education System?? Not sure.

Sarah has several years before she can be baptized. It’s an opportunity for her to take her time, educate her self so she can make a well-informed decision either way. As it is now, it’s my understanding that most converts to Mormonism end up inactive within a year? I dont know if that is true or not, but if it is, all the more reason for Sarah to do her due diligence when it comes to studying Mormonism before she makes that commitment IMO.

I am not afraid of what people write about Catholicism. I say Study it!
Are you afraid of what people write about Mormonis?. I say Study it!

 

[TOmNossor]

I have read all of those. Palmer again just a couple of months ago. Only Bushman (who I recommend) and Compton (who I recommend with reservations) are faithful LDS.
That you suggest Brodie and Palmer present a view from the LDS perspective is WORSE than saying I present the Catholic perspective (I am a baptized confirmed member of the Catholic Church counted as part of the 1B Catholics, I just don’t believe). Quinn is probably closer to Palmer (a non-LDS Christian) and Brodie (an atheist) than he is to Bushman or Compton (LDS). I do not know if Quinn would call himself a LDS (I cannot remember). He does not support the church’s position on SSM at least.

I would recommend:

FAIR – Faithful Answers to Criticisms of The Church of Jesus Christ

For a faithful LDS perspective on tough issues. I think they deal more thoroughly with our tough issues than Catholic Answers does with Catholic issues, but that MIGHT just be my bias they are similar.
Charity, TOm

 

[AngelaMarie]

So reading them all would give Sarah a spectrum of views.
As many/some of them are historians, worth that as well just for the information that they can provide.

That was a plus for Brodie. Her uncle, President McKay, gave her access to the archives that no other historian had at the time. I don’t know if restricted access is still true.

 

[AngelaMarie]

(I am a baptized confirmed member of the Catholic Church counted as part of the 1B Catholics, I just don’t believe)

Understand

Same thing happens with the 16 million Mormons on record. Many of them don’t believe but are still counted.

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

(I am a baptized confirmed member of the Catholic Church counted as part of the 1B Catholics, I just don’t believe)

Understand

Same thing happens with the 16 million Mormons on record. Many of them don’t believe but are still counted.

True, but those who do not believe are not LDS who provide “fair criticisms” just as I should not be called a Catholic.
It was you who called Brodie and Palmer LDS! I do not know if you said this because you wanted to fool @lokisuperfan or if you really do not know what Brodie and Palmer wrote and believe. Either way it presented something as if it was something other than what it really was.

I believe those without the intellectual curiosity to dig through Brodie and Palmer AND the responses to them from faithful LDS are well served by meeting with the missionaries and praying to God for truth. God loves scholars and non-scholars.

But to suggest Palmer is a LDS who provides “fair criticism” means you don’t know what you are talking about or are trying to trick people.
Would you recommend me to those who want a Catholic perspective on the CHANGES coming out of the Vatican over the last 5 years and how compatible they are with historic Catholicism (they are the simplest indicator that the Catholic Church under Pope Francis is not now and may have never been what it claimed to be for centuries) ?

And you seem to have implicitly acknowledged that you know of zero fair criticisms of Catholicism by non-Catholics.
Charity, TOm

 

[AngelaMarie]

I had figured that most if not all of them had been excommunicated at one point, meaning they had been Mormon and ultimately kicked out (as oppose to leave of their own free will)

Either way, back to my original point. Reading and researching a spectrum ("good bad and ugly)

That was my point to Sarah in that particular post.

No, I was not out to fool anyone, including Sarah.
I happen to believe in educating one-self before making big decisions. I believe in being well-informed, and that is what I was encouraging Sarah to do.

There was no ill intent in my suggestion to her. I was being sincere in an effort to be helpful and supportive as well as honest.

It’s possible to be honest without ill-intent

 

[AngelaMarie]

Tom,
I am going to wish you a wonderful and blessed Christmas as it seems my sincere and honest posts to Sarah have trigger and not so good response in you. You seem so very defensive over something that was not meant to offend, but only encourage and inform.

There really was nothing sinister in my posts. Nothing

 

[TOmNossor]

So reading them all would give Sarah a spectrum of views.
As many/some of them are historians, worth that as well just for the information that they can provide.

That was a plus for Brodie. Her uncle, President McKay, gave her access to the archives that no other historian had at the time. I don’t know if restricted access is still true.

Why do you think Brodie had special access?

The “camalot” era was long after Brodie and with the possible exception of now was the most open church archive period.

BTW the missionaries at the 800 number could not answer the question about preBaptismal interviews. My son was well versed however.
It is preferable for the Bishop to meet with all converts, but he can only make recommendations to the Mission President if he has a conflict with the opinion of the missionaries. My son had an experience where the mission president supported the missionaries and the Bishop acknowledged this.

 

[TOmNossor]

Tom,
I am going to wish you a wonderful and blessed Christmas as it seems my sincere and honest posts to Sarah have trigger and not so good response in you. You seem so very defensive over something that was not meant to offend, but only encourage and inform.

There really was nothing sinister in my posts. Nothing

I am sorry. I think I am overly defensive.
Sorry, TOm

And Merry Christmas to you too.

 

[njlisa]

@TOmNossor:

My response is related to the OP – namely, what do Catholics think of LDS beliefs. I summarized my thoughts as best I could. I don’t have a further points to discuss in the context of this thread. I would like to see you put up a post to educate people about LDS doctrines.

A good friend of mine is a Latter day Saint. We discuss our beliefs at length, never arguing, just explaining. To better understand her position, I read some of the Book of Mormon and studied parts of the LDS Web site for further information. I watched videos of speeches during the General Conference.

My background as a religion editor at a daily newspaper led me to learn more many faith traditions. I visited an LDS temple in NYC while it was open for public tours. (This happened before I met my LDS friend). On the tour, I asked so many questions that people began dropping out of the group.

Take care!

Lisa