Hundreds gather in Arizona for armed anti-Muslim protest

[FollowChrist34]

While I think this situation is a little more justifiable than if they targeted a random mosque (since the radicals recently killed at the Draw Muhammad conteat did come from this mosque); I’ll ask, what if a Catholic pro-life extremist murdered an abortion provider. Would a “pro-choice” protest in front of the church that person happened to attend be appropriate?

Righto. I think the idea (speaking as a Christian and a Catholic here) is to have a slightly higher moral compass than those who engage in radical religious terrorism - not set out to give them a run for their money, calling yourself a patriot of all things as you do it.

 

[Path_Finder]

I recall Doctor Martin Luther King offending many people. Yes, desegregation apparently did go against the faith of a number of people even if such beliefs were certainly errant per the Bible. So, I believe your statement could be construed as false.

 

[Path_Finder]

I believe the organizer himself may call himself a “bigot” in that he is in effect, discriminating against what he sees as intolerant behavior.

In real life, we all may discriminate, listening to Back over Beethoven or however the case may be. In such ways, we may be bigots ourselves. But for the sake of discussion, I know we generally tend to see bigots as those with an irrational dislike of another religion and things like that.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

Note that many of the past excesses against minority populations were NOT perpetrated due to some evil bigots rubbing their hands together and gleefully scheming how to keep them down just because They’re Evil Like That.

Much of the time, people justify their actions as arising out of self-defense and portray themselves as the victims. Much of the anti-immigrant sentiment focuses on drug crimes and/or violent crimes committed by some immigrants. Many Men’s Rights Activists claim they’re just trying to defend themselves against the evil feminists. Etc, etc.

While I think this situation is a little more justifiable than if they targeted a random mosque (since the radicals recently killed at the Draw Muhammad conteat did come from this mosque); I’ll ask, what if a Catholic pro-life extremist murdered an abortion provider. Would a “pro-choice” protest in front of the church that person happened to attend be appropriate?

No, I believe that having a protest in front of a Church that a criminal attended would be wrong.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

Totally agree, no one has actually suffered more against ISIL than Muslims from what I can tell, at least in the number of victims. They are in a very difficult place.

Indeed ISIL has killed many Muslims.

These Muslims whom are fighting ISIL will also tell you they are not afraid, and that its ISIL whom is afraid of losing. Though I would not say that Muslims are in a very difficult place , because its ISIL that wants the world to believe that so many Muslims are joining ISIL when in reality, only about 1/10th of 1 percent of Muslims have joined ISIL. If their is a Muslim out their who joins ISIL, then this persons action of joining ISIL would go against Islam.

 

[Path_Finder]

Totally agree, let’s outlaw shirts.

By the way, that is what this organizer seems to think in response to the precise question that some of that belief system believe it is proper to attack others if they draw images to which they object.

He was asked about this and as said, he said “Tough …”.

So, take that perspective or not, that is what he said and seems to motivate him.

 

[Path_Finder]

Gandhi, Martin Luther King were pacifists, that may be another big difference versus others. Then think of a Malcolm X but some of their aims were the same. None of these persons will be the mirror image of each other.

 

[Path_Finder]

I can not recall Malcolm X, a Muslim, ever committing or advocating violence against others because of a cartoon drawn.

 

[Path_Finder]

There’s not much to this story, the organizer is an unknown. He felt compelled to do this. Other than that, the facts we know are very basic. I did not hear of racial epithets hurled though there might have been for all we know. His last name is a bit difficult to spell, so most of us don’t even state it. That said, I’ve gone by places where people worship and have watched the police be out there for whatever reason.

 

[Inisfallen]

It is if someone threatens you.

Nobody was threatening these clowns. They got together, got their guns, and went to the mosque to taunt the people there.

They weren’t threatened. They were the ones doing the threatening, by going as an armed mob to the mosque.

 

[Darryl1958]

Nazi’s are acting like nazi’s and Christians are supposed to be embarrassed? What exactly was the purpose of this protest?

ETA: Christians are supposed to be meek: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Yes.
Christians ought to be embarrassed that people you consider beneath you are the ones who are doing the grunt work.

 

[Darryl1958]

Bikers have worn symbols forever like that. Alice Cooper who proclaims to be a Christian has talked about symbols in rock, he has said he would never use some symbols but others are just for show.

Again, bikers probably get lots of tattoos, I saw one Cossack biker with an SS tattoo. I’m certainly not going to make an absurd judgement of a group of people that that makes them now, a Neo-Nazi biker gang.

I’d not endorse the protesting side, but I don’t think the way they have been vilified on this forum is justified either. Oh, I see the Cossacks also have used the confederate flag in their imagery, I guess that could make them White Supremacists. And there may be an element of that in many biker gangs. Still, I’m going to look at whether they broke the law and whether this is an indication of the whole crowd.

Even if such an outrageous premise is entertained, ACLU sued so true Neo-Nazis could march through the streets of Skokie Illinois. If it be drug use or possible criminal records, I’m sure there are multiple items one could criticize the bikers for.

Let’s see how broadbrushing works:

So, the protesters in Arizona broke no windows, there were no arrests, there were no laws broken.

Sure, proud to be an American.

I won’t make the argument that these are nice people.
They are sending out a clear message that they are not nice people, and they have guns.

As long as I can remember there have been people who have been as anti-Catholic and/or anti-Christian as these people in their t-shirts are anti-Islamic.

So what? We live in a free country. People do not have to be nice to me, nor I to them.

 

[Paddy1989]

Kenneth Salvesen, a 28-year-old American in London on business, killed in the Harrod’s bombing.

Noel Lane (28), Jane Arbuthnot (22) and Stephen Dodd (34), London police officers at the scene of the Harrod’s bombing.

Nick Spanos (28) and Stephen Melrose (24), Australian tourists shot dead in Holland in the mistaken belief that they were off-duty British soldiers.

Margaret O’Hare (37), a Catholic mother of seven children, killed in a bombing in Belfast.

Stephen Parker (14), killed in the same bombing as Ms. O’Hare.

They were a few of the victims of terrorist attacks on civilian targets.

Terrorism is terrorism. It’s terrorism whether it’s someone piloting a plane into a building or planting a bomb in a department store. It’s designed to inflict fear on a population.

Because one’s cause is (or is perceived to be) just doesn’t change that.

I agree these were tragedies and should never have happened buy these immoral actions doesn’t make the IRA a terrorist army anymore than bloody Sunday, bally Murphy massacre collusion with loyalist death squads etc make the British army a terrorist army. The war however was just and for Irish freedom

 

[Paddy1989]

I know And a great statesman at that. Responsible for transitioning the freedom from British rule of 100s of millions of people. And obviously no “warning” was issued He was in a yacht, not a warship when he was killed So how was blowing him up not an act of terror?

Of course no warning with issued here as he was a legitimate target. As for not being in active service when he was killed, combatants on both sides were killed on and off duty, thats war and you would be watching too many Hollywood movies if you think most nations only target active service combatants. This is unfortunate however buts that’s war and war is hell. Would you say the British actions in Ireland were an act of terror? I’m just curious to know. I never thought I’d see people on here defend an imperialist nation on a Catholic forum especially one that sought to destroy Catholicism across its territories. Too many Americans forget how their nation was fought for mainly by militias using guerilla tactics which were both effective and brutal

 

[Paddy1989]

Kenneth Salvesen, a 28-year-old American in London on business, killed in the Harrod’s bombing.

Noel Lane (28), Jane Arbuthnot (22) and Stephen Dodd (34), London police officers at the scene of the Harrod’s bombing.

Nick Spanos (28) and Stephen Melrose (24), Australian tourists shot dead in Holland in the mistaken belief that they were off-duty British soldiers.

Margaret O’Hare (37), a Catholic mother of seven children, killed in a bombing in Belfast.

Stephen Parker (14), killed in the same bombing as Ms. O’Hare.

They were a few of the victims of terrorist attacks on civilian targets.

Terrorism is terrorism. It’s terrorism whether it’s someone piloting a plane into a building or planting a bomb in a department store. It’s designed to inflict fear on a population.

Because one’s cause is (or is perceived to be) just doesn’t change that.

By the way the IRA defeated the British in the 26 counties of Ireland a state which you recognise and as for the 6 occupied counties in the North the IRA smashed the anti Catholic institutions that aided In the attempt to uproot and remove catholics from the North of Ireland using its police force (B Specials) and loyalist paramilitaries which burned tens of thousands of catholics from their homes. Does this act from Britain’s institutions make them terrorists!!!. The current peace in the North is an act of mercy by the IRA to halt bloodshed as they can now achieve Irish freedom through peaceful means, if they wanted they could use any means necessary as every nation has the right to defend itself from a foreign occupier but since peaceful means are no longer impossible they are now pursuing political means to achieve Irish freedom.

The US in recent years on the other hand tends to avoid peaceful means as much as possible by jumping into conflicts, tearing nations apart, install a puppet government, withdraw and then scoff at these nations as they destroy themselves. It’s immoral and the world despises them for it

 

[estesbob]

Of course no warning with issued here as he was a legitimate target. As for not being in active service when he was killed, combatants on both sides were killed on and off duty, thats war and you would be watching too many Hollywood movies if you think most nations only target active service combatants. This is unfortunate however buts that’s war and war is hell. Would you say the British actions in Ireland were an act of terror? I’m just curious to know. I never thought I’d see people on here defend an imperialist nation on a Catholic forum especially one that sought to destroy Catholicism across its territories. Too many Americans forget how their nation was fought for mainly by militias using guerilla tactics which were both effective and brutal

A man cruising in a luxury yacht is a legitimate target?
Nobody here is defending an “imperialist” nation . We are condemning wanton acts of terrorism . The church condemns targeting civilians even in just wars please don’t try to hide the barbarity of the IRA behind the skirts of holy mother Church

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Totally agree, let’s outlaw shirts.

Hi, Mr. Strawman!

No one has stated that shirts should be outlawed. No one (AFAIK) has even stated that the protest was illegal or should be illegal. Questioning the morality and prudence of an action is NOT the same as stating it should be outlawed.

I get a feeling that even if an actual KKK and/or other White Supremacist rally had taken place here, most CAFers would admit that such an event is free speech protected by the First Amendment. That does not mean they agree it should have taken place.

And again, legal =/= moral. Otherwise, abortion would be moral simply because it is legal.

ETA: While I may be mistaken, I get the feeling some people are holding such “protests” and other deliberately offensive acts such as the Draw Muhammad contests, not merely to express their opinions, but actually HOPING to draw out Islamic radicals, HOPING they will act violently, and actually HOPING they will get a chance to take them out in “self-defense”. Essentially, the Dirty Harry approach. I really hope I am mistaken, as I certainly don’t think this will end well.

 

[Seamus_L]

So ISIS has killed alot more Muslims than non-Muslims. Don’t know what that has to do with anything. Imagine telling the American people in the days after 9-11, “Al-Qaeda has killed more Muslims than non-Muslims”.

 

[Inisfallen]

By the way the IRA defeated the British in the 26 counties of Ireland a state which you recognise and as for the 6 occupied counties in the North the IRA smashed the anti Catholic institutions that aided In the attempt to uproot and remove catholics from the North of Ireland using its police force (B Specials) and loyalist paramilitaries which burned tens of thousands of catholics from their homes. Does this act from Britain’s institutions make them terrorists!!!. The current peace in the North is an act of mercy by the IRA to halt bloodshed as they can now achieve Irish freedom through peaceful means, if they wanted they could use any means necessary as every nation has the right to defend itself from a foreign occupier but since peaceful means are no longer impossible they are now pursuing political means to achieve Irish freedom.

The US in recent years on the other hand tends to avoid peaceful means as much as possible by jumping into conflicts, tearing nations apart, install a puppet government, withdraw and then scoff at these nations as they destroy themselves. It’s immoral and the world despises them for it

I’m not sure I understand your point.

You seem to be making a couple of arguments here. One appears to be that killing people, non-combatants, bystanders, children, is perfectly morally acceptable if one’s cause is just. This is pretty much the argument universally made by terrorists. The Provisional IRA is in line here with Boko Haram and ISIS and Al Qaeda and, oh, the Bader-Meinhoff Gang and the Symbionese Liberation Army and any other politically-motivated gang of murderers you can think of.

The other seems to be that because (in your opinion) the United States engages in bad behavior on a global level, whatever the IRA (or, by extension, Boko Haram or Al Shabaab and the rest) do is OK. That argument doesn’t even begin to make sense.

 

[Path_Finder]

Hi, Mr. Strawman!

Name calling is not welcome here.