Hypothetical conversion process

[Porknpie]

I apologize for the angry response. This whole experience has turned upside-down my belief that Catholics and Protestants share equally in the grace of Christ. For my experience in the Protestant church to be called “unworthy” and “copper” was indeed hurtful. I realize I’m in a Catholic forum, and I know there are those in the Protestant faith that have hurt Catholics through the negation and silencing of their faith, but what I have gained is the experience of invalidation. I pray the grace of God will remove my human fault of ignorance and unrighteous indignation, and also pray for your forgiveness for my hostile response.

EIF5A -

I would add:

• that the choice of music at a Catholic Mass is, to the extent possible, coordinated with the scripture readings thereby reinforcing the written Word of God (note: we have four separate scripture readings at Mass, a practice that goes back to the early Church)
• that nearly all the music in the song books, both “traditional” and “Catholic contemporary”, leverages scripture heavily in their words.

So if you are interesting in hearing the written Word of God, singing the written Word of God and receiving Christ’s true body and blood in the Eucharist, the Catholic Church would be your choice.

Pork

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t suppose there’s a catechism on the appropriate You:I ratio…

Probably not. The ideal or “perfect” hymn is considered to be Tantum Ergo (which is actually just a portion of Pange Lingua), has one reference to “we” but no references to “I” or “me.”

youtube.com/watch?v=Swns4Kjzc9E

 

[EIF5A]

The ideal or “perfect” hymn is considered to be Tantum Ergo

What makes a hymn ideal – words, melody, or both? Is there doctrinal basis for what constitutes appropriate lyrics or is it Sacred Tradition passed on? When do Catholics sing religious songs other than at Mass? Is there a Council for New Songwriting, or are traditional songs considered sufficient?

 

[jmcrae]

What makes a hymn ideal – words, melody, or both? Is there doctrinal basis for what constitutes appropriate lyrics or is it Sacred Tradition passed on? When do Catholics sing religious songs other than at Mass? Is there a Council for New Songwriting, or are traditional songs considered sufficient?

It is that the words suit the melody (there is nothing weirder than a happy, bouncy rock tune going on about Christ on the Cross, and conversely, a sad, melancholy tune about the glories of Heaven would also seem really strange) and of course that the melody isn’t too sensual or earthy.

Church music also shouldn’t sound angry. Any hymn, regardless of how good, should probably not be sung to the tune of “We will, we will, rock you.” Even if that happens to be your favourite tune of all time.

There are Vatican commissions on music; they tend to be ignored here in English-speaking North America, since they forbid all sorts of things in Church that for whatever reason people are very attached to.

 

[EIF5A]

It is that the words suit the melody (there is nothing weirder than a happy, bouncy rock tune going on about Christ on the Cross, and conversely, a sad, melancholy tune about the glories of Heaven would also seem really strange) and of course that the melody isn’t too sensual or earthy.

Church music also shouldn’t sound angry. Any hymn, regardless of how good, should probably not be sung to the tune of “We will, we will, rock you.” Even if that happens to be your favourite tune of all time.

There are Vatican commissions on music; they tend to be ignored here in English-speaking North America, since they forbid all sorts of things in Church that for whatever reason people are very attached to.

Hmm…reminds me of an upbeat rendition of “Down at the Cross”. I never thought of it as weird…maybe because in Protestant churches, a realistic Crucifix with Jesus on the Cross is not present during worship. It seems Catholics put focus on the suffering of Christ (and the solemnity that is brought forth), and Protestants put focus on the post-suffering victory of Christ (and a more “joyous” attitude). I wonder if God is offended by the tone/tempo/volume of worship songs.

Down at the cross where my Savior died,
Down where for cleansing from sin I cried,
There to my heart was the blood applied;
Glory to His Name!

Refrain

Glory to His Name, glory to His Name:
There to my heart was the blood applied;
Glory to His Name!

Regarding angry-sounding music: I guess there goes Battle Hymn of the Republic out the window.

 

[Porknpie]

What makes a hymn ideal – words, melody, or both? Is there doctrinal basis for what constitutes appropriate lyrics or is it Sacred Tradition passed on? When do Catholics sing religious songs other than at Mass? Is there a Council for New Songwriting, or are traditional songs considered sufficient?

EIF-

The US Catholic Bishops issue guidelines which answer all if not all of your questions above plus give great insight to the importance of music to the liturgy.

npmrc.org/documents/SingToTheLord.pdf

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m glad to know Catholics think Protestant worship songs are cheap copper imitations compared to authentic gold music passed down through the ages in the real, true, only Catholic Church of Christ. We may put emphasis on different aspects of the Divine, but honestly, this is insulting. Perhaps you didn’t mean to do that, but I always thought Catholics and Protestants are different organs of the same Body, but it’s clear at least some Catholics consider us like tumors or overgrown fingernail.

All this time during worship, I was just having a “feel good” moment…

I get the hint that “feelings” are considered immature by Catholics and not of substance, even if that feeling is inspiration on the works of God, shunning the sinful ways of the past, and desiring to follow a path God desires for us. Only via contemplation and tender music can we TRULY understand.

EIF,

Many of the songs used in Catholic mass were written by Protestants…

Amazing Grace was not written by a Catholic and it is sung all the time…

search for Protestant Hyms/Catholic service and you will find a wealth of music that Catholics sing that are Protestant.

 

[CopticChristian]

"Jesus Christ, I think upon your sacrifice
You became nothing, poured out to death
Many times, I’ve wondered at your gift of life
I’m in that place once again
I’m in that place once again

And once again I look upon the cross where you died
I’m humbled by your mercy and I’m broken inside
Once again I thank you
Once again I pour out my life

Now you are, exalted to the highest place
King of the heavens, where one day I’ll bow
But for now, I marvel at this saving grace
I’m full of praise once again
I’m full of praise once again"

Tell me how this is “cheap”. Tell me how this song is “unworthy”. Tell me the tears I shed to this music is “simplistic feel good song”.

Yes, there are songs that are more upbeat, and dare I say, sounds like rock and roll, but the same thought and contemplation that Catholics put into their music are present in those songs as well.

EIF,

What is the name of this hymn?

 

[CopticChristian]

I apologize for the angry response. This whole experience has turned upside-down my belief that Catholics and Protestants share equally in the grace of Christ. For my experience in the Protestant church to be called “unworthy” and “copper” was indeed hurtful. I realize I’m in a Catholic forum, and I know there are those in the Protestant faith that have hurt Catholics through the negation and silencing of their faith, but what I have gained is the experience of invalidation. I pray the grace of God will remove my human fault of ignorance and unrighteous indignation, and also pray for your forgiveness for my hostile response.

EIF,

Humans squabble all the time…the grace brings you to Christ and helps you move towards Holiness…keep truckin…

 

[EIF5A]

EIF,

What is the name of this hymn?

It’s contemporary Christian music…“Once Again” (written by Matt Redman). He’s one of those musicians that I guess some might find less than ideal for traditional worship.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think it has the same problem as a lot of Catholic music has, too - the flaw is that it is all about “me”. (And before my fellow Catholics get cocky, there is a lot of “me me me me” in the Catholic hymn books, as well.)

The words “I” or “me” should not appear in any hymn or song for worship.

They are appropriate for Sunday School or other gatherings where the focus is on the individual and his or her relationship with Christ, but not for worship. Worship should be totally focused on Him, and should not have any element of “I” or “me” in it.

J,

So, tell me how you feel about singing this in Mass, I know I have sung this and quite honestly it does not rub me wrong…

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like **me.**I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now **I **see.

T’was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour **I **first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
**I **have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought **me **safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
**I **shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we’ve been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’ve first begun.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t suppose there’s a catechism on the appropriate You:I ratio…

EIF,

Naaahh no such thing…you, me, I, my, none of this is essential to understanding your intentions to want to praise God…the whole is more than the sum of its parts…

 

[CopticChristian]

Probably not. The ideal or “perfect” hymn is considered to be Tantum Ergo (which is actually just a portion of Pange Lingua), has one reference to “we” but no references to “I” or “me.”

youtube.com/watch?v=Swns4Kjzc9E

J,

I kind of like this one…

Our God(our God) is an awesome God
He reigns(He reigns) from heaven above
With wisdom(with wisdom) pow’r and love
our God is an awesome God

 

[CopticChristian]

What makes a hymn ideal – words, melody, or both? Is there doctrinal basis for what constitutes appropriate lyrics or is it Sacred Tradition passed on? When do Catholics sing religious songs other than at Mass? Is there a Council for New Songwriting, or are traditional songs considered sufficient?

EIF,

We are creatures and the God that created us hears groans…that are turned into prayer…

26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s contemporary Christian music…“Once Again” (written by Matt Redman). He’s one of those musicians that I guess some might find less than ideal for traditional worship.

EIF,

This is a great meditation…how many people actually take the time, 6 minutes, to show gratitude for life, and the gift of eternal life through the cross and call Christ…Friend…very good…

It may be possibly used in Teen gatherings and I believe that it has value…everyone should listen to it…

youtube.com/watch?v=FkK4YHy-wNg

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s contemporary Christian music…“Once Again” (written by Matt Redman). He’s one of those musicians that I guess some might find less than ideal for traditional worship.

EIF,

I believe that there may be some disagreement because the element of music is compared to liturgy and music does not have to be liturgy to be prayer. We are called to pray…song is vocal prayer…

Some of that vocal prayer becomes part of the liturgy but not all vocal prayer is part of the liturgy…and whether it is part of the liturgy or not it is still prayer for we are to pray without ceasing and if we want to sing the day away with Contemporary praise…not a bad way to pray without ceasing if you can do it…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c3a1.htm

THE LIFE OF PRAYER

ARTICLE 1
EXPRESSIONS OF PRAYER

I. VOCAL PRAYER

2700 Through his Word, God speaks to man. By words, mental or vocal, our prayer takes flesh. Yet it is most important that the heart should be present to him to whom we are speaking in prayer: "Whether or not our prayer is heard depends not on the number of words, but on the fervor of our souls."2

2701 Vocal prayer is an essential element of the Christian life. To his disciples, drawn by their Master’s silent prayer, Jesus teaches a vocal prayer, the Our Father. He not only prayed aloud the liturgical prayers of the synagogue but, as the Gospels show, he raised his voice to express his personal prayer, from exultant blessing of the Father to the agony of Gesthemani.3

2702 The need to involve the senses in interior prayer corresponds to a requirement of our human nature. We are body and spirit, and we experience the need to translate our feelings externally. We must pray with our whole being to give all power possible to our supplication.

2703 This need also corresponds to a divine requirement. God seeks worshippers in Spirit and in Truth, and consequently living prayer that rises from the depths of the soul. He also wants the external expression that associates the body with interior prayer, for it renders him that perfect homage which is his due.

2704 Because it is external and so thoroughly human, vocal prayer is the form of prayer most readily accessible to groups. Even interior prayer, however, cannot neglect vocal prayer. Prayer is internalized to the extent that we become aware of him "to whom we speak;"4 Thus vocal prayer becomes an initial form of contemplative prayer.

 

[EIF5A]

EIF,

I believe that there may be some disagreement because the element of music is compared to liturgy and music does not have to be liturgy to be prayer. We are called to pray…song is vocal prayer…

Some of that vocal prayer becomes part of the liturgy but not all vocal prayer is part of the liturgy…and whether it is part of the liturgy or not it is still prayer for we are to pray without ceasing and if we want to sing the day away with Contemporary praise…not a bad way to pray without ceasing if you can do it…

scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c3a1.htm

I guess I was not raised in the tradition that songs are prayers. In this light, I can see how exuberantly uttering a prayer via music might be uncomfortable for some. (Speaking of, y’all Catholics would be horrified by a practice at my previous church where everyone prays out loud at the same time, some quite loudly – not every prayer is like this, but it does happen on occasion.)

 

[EIF5A]

EIF,

This is a great meditation…how many people actually take the time, 6 minutes, to show gratitude for life, and the gift of eternal life through the cross and call Christ…Friend…very good…

It may be possibly used in Teen gatherings and I believe that it has value…everyone should listen to it…

youtube.com/watch?v=FkK4YHy-wNg

I’m glad it was you who posted the link. Had I done it, it might have seemed like I was pushing a Protestant agenda. I can offer more examples if you’re interested Or am I pushing my luck?

Interesting how you called it a meditation. We would’ve just called it a song, perhaps a contemplative song.

So many minute differences between us

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m glad it was you who posted the link. Had I done it, it might have seemed like I was pushing a Protestant agenda. I can offer more examples if you’re interested Or am I pushing my luck?

Interesting how you called it a meditation. We would’ve just called it a song, perhaps a contemplative song.

So many minute differences between us

EIF,

We have gone so far beyond “does my Baptism Count”…in the context of this being your thread…where do you want it to go?..by the way…you be us and we be you…

If it moves you to put up another song, do so…

 

[pablope]

I’m glad it was you who posted the link. Had I done it, it might have seemed like I was pushing a Protestant agenda. I can offer more examples if you’re interested Or am I pushing my luck?

Interesting how you called it a meditation. We would’ve just called it a song, perhaps a contemplative song.

So many minute differences between us

Maybe a little beginner’s understanding of the Liturgy may help here…zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m1/splndr.html

Liturgy and Worship

A second type of external splendor that I’d like to reflect upon with you is the liturgy and the worship of the Roman Catholic Church. Where I come from in Bible Christian circles, most worship services are very sermon-centered and most churches are very pastor-centered. In fact, it’s very easy to see personality cults arise in certain churches where orators, great rhetoricians, are preaching 30, 40, 50 minutes each Sunday. People come and really measure their experience on the basis of how motivated, how informed and how excited they feel at the end of the sermon. It’s a shame because I think all of them, like I was, are aware that something very man-centered is happening.

There was something missing of the antiquity and the ripe incarnational humanness of Catholic worship. The more he studied, the more he recognized that the historic, apostolic liturgy is what really belongs by birthright to the Catholic Church.

This is something I’m discovering. I’ve only been a Catholic five or six years now, but I’ve discovered this in many ways. I’ve been on Opus Dei retreats now three times where they have celebrated the New Order, the Novus Ordo Mass in Latin - not a lot of smells and bells, just a certain holy simplicity. But I’ve walked away from these celebrations thinking, That is powerful; that is holy. There is so little in American life where you can go and say, “That’s holiness; that’s the sacred.” I came away from those Latin Masses with that sense.