I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

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Neither can you reject St. James - St. James must be St. Paul and St. Paul must be St. James, unless you think one of the Apostles is ‘preaching to you a gospel contrary’…
I completely agree. I love the Epstile of James. Paul, Peter, James, John, Jude, Matthew, Mark, Luke all proclaimed the gospel of God’s grace. If you do a word search on gospel, you will find the gospel to be described in many ways. Some descriptions include the gospel of God, gospel of Christ, gospel of God’s grace, my gospel, etc…

gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=gospel&src=esv.org

The insightful truth is to find that James never uses the word “gospel” and Peter uses it twice in his first letter. You will find that the Apsotle Paul was obessed with “the gospel” since he uses the word “gospel” so many times…
 
I do believe the two sacraments found in the Bible are means of sanctifying grace.
Actually, the Bible says there are seven.
However, our division is within justification.
Apart from grace, none of us are justified before God. Where’s the division?

It seems to me you’ve set up a false distinction between the Catholic view and the non-Catholic view which aren’t really there once we stop talking past one another. You’ve been shown repeatedly that your interpretation of Catholic doctrine is not what the Church actually teaches.
 
Actually, the Bible says there are seven.
Apart from grace, none of us are justified before God. Where’s the division?

It seems to me you’ve set up a false distinction between the Catholic view and the non-Catholic view which aren’t really there once we stop talking past one another. You’ve been shown repeatedly that your interpretation of Catholic doctrine is not what the Church actually teaches.
Let’s go beyond the superfical posting. All informed Catholic and Protestants know the doctrine of justification is what divides us. I’m sure justification by faith has been discussed and debated numerous times on this forum.
 
Let’s go beyond the superfical arguements. All informed catholic and Protestants know the doctrine of justification is what divides us.
Well then, we’ve done our part to inform you as to Paul’s message of justification and its harmony to Catholic beliefs. We’re still waiting for something from you to refute what we’ve posted.
 
Let’s go beyond the superfical posting.
I’m not being superficial at all.
All informed Catholic and Protestants know the doctrine of justification is what divides us. I’m sure justification by faith has been discussed and debated numerous times on this forum.
We are justified by faith, and any and all faith that we have, comes to us through God’s grace.

We just don’t agree on the definition of “faith.”
 
Pixie, I’m wondering if we’re ever going to get a straight reply from Reformed!?!?
 
You were asking someone on this thread about the gospel in Paul. Maybe you want to know some of the first things that need to be told to someone, maybe you would use the word a “lost” someone, and you probably would be speaking to a Gentile on probabilities alone. Do keep in mind that both the Romans and the Galatians had already heard and believed the proclamation of the gospel.

I’d explain that Jesus is the Son of God, was crucified, and raised from the dead on the third day, and that, oh, I just have to put the word Savior or salvation in there somewhere, I simply can’t leave it out. Then, of course, you can wait to see if they believe your report, and if they wish to know what to do from there. Also, once salvation and crucified are mentioned, I cannot leave out reconciliation or forgiveness of sins. I know this may seem related to the Apostle’s Creed and not anything to do with Paul, but that is not so, nor was it the motivation of the list. I bet you know exactly where to find these things in Paul (or Paul in Acts), too. But since there seems to be some quarrel on this thread about use of scripture, I will provide some indication of the trend in my thoughts. I apologize for the length this creates.

Son of God

Directly after the scales and baptism thing, *20 and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “He is the Son of God.” And in the beginning of Romans, set apart for the gospel of God…concerning His Son *and in Galatians 2 *I live by faith in the Son of God *or in Galatians 3 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son and I suppose Hebrews could be added *in these last days has spoken to us in His Son. *That Jesus is the Son of God seems to be important in the NT (and yes, PAUL).

Crucified (including reconciling and sins)

Both in 1 Corinthians, *but we preach Christ crucified, *and, *For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. Galatians also mentions it But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Or I especially like 1 Corinthians 15 where he describes what he handed on as of first importance that Christ died for our sins in accordance with scripture. *(See, the other topic comes sliding in, as I described. You can’t talk about his death without sins coming in there. I mean, someone will ask, why did God have him die, what does it mean…and then you have to talk about God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself from 2 Corinthians.) Then it seems good to tack on from a speech in Acts (a Paul speech, of course) Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, which leads to this from Colossians For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. And that leads me to:

Salavation

Note, though, that I’d be likely in real life, and not under your restrictions, to use sources other than Paul, like the gospel of John or Luke’s narrative of the angel talking to the shepherds, since it is well known in our culture.

Here in Ephesians, In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (which, annoyingly 🙂 drags in another topic, the HS, whom I dithered about including in my list of topics) Hebrews mentions it, And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, or yet again a speech from Acts *For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH
  • Or from Titus*, But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.*
The words in Paul about salvation tell of its importance as a topic, but the actual quotes are probably not what I’d use to explain to a random stranger. But I still think Paul sees salvation as central to the gospel, just as in your quote of Rom 1:16 (which I am not listing, because you listed it already).

OOOOPS. I left off “raised from the dead on the third day”, so I’ll do it quickly, since I tired myself out on the quotes for the other ones.

Raised from the dead on the third day

Here from that of first importance section in 1 Corinthians 15 *and that He was raised on the third day *Also, I think Paul sees a connection between that Jesus was raised and various facts about us, like life and the bodily resurrection, so it is important. I’ll give a few snips from Romans only for this, since I doubt you dispute this topic. *Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, *And, *But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Or, a duplicate from what you already gave, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

*[continued]
 
Pixie, I’m wondering if we’re ever going to get a straight reply from Reformed!?!?
I’m still wondering where to find “Trinity” in the Bible. According to Reformed, it has to be in there. 😉

Just for kicks, I looked up the “Joint Declaration on Justification” in which Lutherans (yes, Reformed, LUTHERANS) and Catholics agree that we do, in fact share the same beliefs on justification. So whatever issue Martin Luther may have had regarding justification in 1517 is now a moot point.

In part:
  1. In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]
16.** All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith.** Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.
17.We also share the conviction that the message of justification directs us in a special way towards the heart of the New Testament witness to God’s saving action in Christ: it tells us that as sinners our new life is solely due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we receive in faith, and never can merit in any way.
18.Therefore the doctrine of justification, which takes up this message and explicates it, is more than just one part of Christian doctrine. It stands in an essential relation to all truths of faith, which are to be seen as internally related to each other. It is an indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ. When Lutherans emphasize the unique significance of this criterion, they do not deny the interrelation and significance of all truths of faith. When Catholics see themselves as bound by several criteria, they do not deny the special function of the message of justification.** Lutherans and Catholics share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5f) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts.**
 
Sorry, I cut out lots and was still over so

Hopefully all of these quotes help you see why I think Paul thinks these particular topics are of basic importance, and that these would have been told to the “lost”.
 
I’m still wondering where to find “Trinity” in the Bible. According to Reformed, it has to be in there. 😉

Just for kicks, I looked up the “Joint Declaration on Justification” in which Lutherans (yes, Reformed, LUTHERANS) and Catholics agree that we do, in fact share the same beliefs on justification. So whatever issue Martin Luther may have had regarding justification in 1517 is now a moot point.

In part:
Lutherans signed two different declarations which are mutually exclusive of each other. Which Lutheran group best represent the Protestant Reformers?

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Declaration

Call To Repentance And Reformation

The faithfulness of the evangelical church in the past contrasts sharply with its unfaithfulness in the present. Earlier in this century, evangelical churches sustained a remarkable missionary endeavor, and built many religious institutions to serve the cause of biblical truth and Christ’s kingdom. That was a time when Christian behavior and expectations were markedly different from those in the culture. Today they often are not. The evangelical world today is losing its biblical fidelity, moral compass and missionary zeal.

We repent of our worldliness. We have been influenced by the “gospels” of our secular culture, which are no gospels. We have weakened the church by our own lack of serious repentance, our blindness to the sins in ourselves which we see so clearly in others, and our inexcusable failure adequately to tell others about God’s saving work in Jesus Christ.

We also earnestly call back erring professing evangelicals who have deviated from God’s Word in the matters discussed in this Declaration. This includes those who declare that there is hope of eternal life apart from explicit faith in Jesus Christ, who claim that those who reject Christ in this life will be annihilated rather than endure the just judgment of God through eternal suffering, or who claim that evangelicals and Roman Catholics are one in Jesus Christ even where the biblical doctrine of justification is not believed.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals asks all Christians to give consideration to implementing this Declaration in the church’s worship, ministry, policies, life and evangelism. For Christ’s sake. Amen.
 
Yawn…we’re still waiting for you to address the posts many of us provided revealing Paul’s writings conflict with your idea of justificaiton.
The wind blows where it wishes and same with the Spirit of God.

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3
 
Sadly, your hot air blows nothing of substance to support your position…still waiting…
The Apostle Paul:

Wisdom from the Spirit

6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. [3]

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
 
The Apostle Paul:

Wisdom from the Spirit

6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,

“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. [3]

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Now, if only you would apply what that to which Paul speaks, we might get some substance from you, or you might just address the posts many of us have provided that reveal your understanding of justificaiton contradicts both Christ’s and Paul’s words.
 
Lutherans signed two different declarations which are mutually exclusive of each other. Which Lutheran group best represent the Protestant Reformers?

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Declaration

Call To Repentance And Reformation

The faithfulness of the evangelical church in the past contrasts sharply with its unfaithfulness in the present. Earlier in this century, evangelical churches sustained a remarkable missionary endeavor, and built many religious institutions to serve the cause of biblical truth and Christ’s kingdom. That was a time when Christian behavior and expectations were markedly different from those in the culture. Today they often are not. The evangelical world today is losing its biblical fidelity, moral compass and missionary zeal.

We repent of our worldliness. We have been influenced by the “gospels” of our secular culture, which are no gospels. We have weakened the church by our own lack of serious repentance, our blindness to the sins in ourselves which we see so clearly in others, and our inexcusable failure adequately to tell others about God’s saving work in Jesus Christ.

We also earnestly call back erring professing evangelicals who have deviated from God’s Word in the matters discussed in this Declaration. This includes those who declare that there is hope of eternal life apart from explicit faith in Jesus Christ, who claim that those who reject Christ in this life will be annihilated rather than endure the just judgment of God through eternal suffering, or who claim that evangelicals and Roman Catholics are one in Jesus Christ even where the biblical doctrine of justification is not believed.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals asks all Christians to give consideration to implementing this Declaration in the church’s worship, ministry, policies, life and evangelism. For Christ’s sake. Amen.
The Cambridge document is from 1996 and clearly reflects a faulty understanding of Catholic beliefs, the Joint Declaration was signed in 1999, which means that in the three years between, there was dialogue and an understanding was reached.** Catholics completely believe in the biblical doctrine of justification by faith in Christ.** You have yet to prove that your understanding of justification by faith is any better, or different than our understanding of justification by faith.

Why don’t Protestants bend over backwards to protest the Byzantine Catholic Church or the Coptic Catholic Church or the Syrian Catholic Church or the Armenian Catholic Church, all of whom profess the EXACT same Catholic faith? Why is it only the Latin Rite that gets maligned?
 
The Cambridge document is from 1996 and clearly reflects a faulty understanding of Catholic beliefs, the Joint Declaration was signed in 1999, which means that in the three years between, there was dialogue and an understanding was reached.** Catholics completely believe in the biblical doctrine of justification by faith in Christ.** You have yet to prove that your understanding of justification by faith is any better, or different than our understanding of justification by faith.

Why don’t Protestants bend over backwards to protest the Byzantine Catholic Church or the Coptic Catholic Church or the Syrian Catholic Church or the Armenian Catholic Church, all of whom profess the EXACT same Catholic faith? Why is it only the Latin Rite that gets maligned?
Pixie, please do not confuse Reformed with facts 😉
 
More from our Catholic Father in the Faith, St Paul the Apostle, with commentary in light blue so anyone who wishes to ignore it may do so. To read it, simply highlight it with your mouse. 🙂 I’m never sure from one post to the next whether Reformed wants commentary or not. 😊

I Timothy 3:1 - Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

If an office holder dies, another should always be appointed to fill the office - that’s how succession works - you can’t have a vacant office. If the President dies, we immediately get a new one sworn in. When each apostle died, another was appointed to take their office. They appointed or ordained other Bishops as well, and they created new offices as the Church grew.

I Timothy 1:18 - This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

Paul is passing on authority to Timothy and Titus as a father passes on authority to his son - an inheritance that would one day be passed on to Timothy’s successors.

Titus 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Paul writes to others in regards to how they are to receive Timothy:

1 Corinthians 4:17 - For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.

Timothy was sent with the full authority of Paul. Paul passed on authority as a rule of faith - the authority Jesus gave to Paul did not die with Paul, Paul passed it on and expected his successors to do the same. Paul expected Christians to obey these men who received this authority.

2 Timothy 1:13-14 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard the truth which has been entrusted to you, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us,

2 Timothy 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Timothy is to ordain others as he himself has been ordained. From Paul, to Timothy, to faithful men, to others also - four generations of apostolic succession in one passage of Scripture.

Titus 1:5-7 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you-- 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For a bishop, as God’s steward, must be above reproach (blameless). He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,

Titus is appointing or ordaining bishops. He has been given authority and is likewise ordaining others with the same authority. This includes the authority to teach, which is the mission of the church.

I Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

I Timothy 4:11-13 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation(preaching), to teaching.

Timothy and Titus are told to command and teach, to charge others NOT to teach different doctrine, appoint elders, and guard the deposit of faith (guard the truth) and pass it on to others. How was authority passed on from the apostles to their successors?

2 Timothy 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands

I Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you.

This authority from Paul to the elders or Bishops was passed on by a ceremonial laying on of hands. That’s exactly what is done and has been done for the last 2000 years. Apostles, as Fathers, pass on their teaching and their teaching authority that they received from Christ. It is only through Christ’s authority that the successors have authority. That’s the only way Timothy had any authority to command, rebuke and teach. Paul did NOT tell Timothy to let everyone read the Bible for themselves. He also gave Timothy the authority to lay on hands - to ordain others.
 
The Cambridge document is from 1996 and clearly reflects a faulty understanding of Catholic beliefs, the Joint Declaration was signed in 1999, which means that in the three years between, there was dialogue and an understanding was reached.** Catholics completely believe in the biblical doctrine of justification by faith in Christ.** You have yet to prove that your understanding of justification by faith is any better, or different than our understanding of justification by faith.

Why don’t Protestants bend over backwards to protest the Byzantine Catholic Church or the Coptic Catholic Church or the Syrian Catholic Church or the Armenian Catholic Church, all of whom profess the EXACT same Catholic faith? Why is it only the Latin Rite that gets maligned?
Thanks for reading a portion of the Cambridge Declaration and trying to create unity. Could you please read the entire Cambridge Declaration and see if we still have unity? Three years or 1,500 years, things are still the same. I am very familar with the work of the endorsers of the Cambridge Declaration. Why not debate the other Catholic Church? Because you have the Forum site. I am familar with Catholic Answers way before this site. 🙂

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html
 
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