I can't believe you all are not LDS(Mormon)!

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MelanieAnne said:
I’m merely suggesting that you will never get Zerinus and those of his ilk to sign on to any sort of agreement. Most Mormons, including Zerinus, take all these stories on faith and appear to have no concern whatsoever that not only is there no proof of these specific claims, but there is a lot of proof that these specific claims are false.

I personally believe the entire Mormon business is a total fraud, that Joseph Smith was a con man and why he decided to go into the religion business is very questionable. I also I find fault with present-day Mormon missionaries that conceal the really weird and preposterous aspects of Mormonism from prospective converts.

While I agree with you that Mormon claims should be examined for their reasonableness, and upon the determination that the claims are false, the faith should be abandoned, you are not likely to get the same sort of agreement from any Mormon. It’s not about reasonableness or evidence or any of that for a Mormon, it’s about faith and a “burning in the breast” and the “still small voice” of the Holy Spirit whispering to them that it is all true.
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Melanie,

Fair enough. But, I used to be a Mormon defender on internet boards and I had many similar arguments as I am reading now from zerinus and bdawg, and there is no question in my mind that the process of having to thoroughly defend MOrmonism from every sort of attack got my brain thinking about things in ways I wouldn’t have otherwise. So, there is that possibility.

The other thing is, I don’t go into every debate thinking I’m going to convert the other person. That’s actually pretty highly unlikely… but I hope that zerinus, and I, will have gained a little depth and insight into our own thinking by the end.
 
nebula said:
Hmm, then we are at an impasse, since I’m rather certain that the whole thing is a fraud. What to do?
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nebula said:
If it comes to it, that’s always the option, but in the meantime, from an epistemological angle, my question to zerinus is: how do we determine who is right and who is wrong?
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You know what the Mormon position on that is. Maybe it is one that you don’t like, or feel comfortable with; but no denying what it is. The truth of Mormonism rests on the truth of the Book of Mormon, and the claims that Joseph Smith made about it. We believe that the truth of the Book of Mormon can only be determined by the witness of the Holy Spirit. It cannot be determined by scientific investigation, archaeological digging, or DNA analysis. That is the only way that one can know; and that is how I know. Perhaps you will now say, what then is the point of these discussions? Well, I believe there is a point. I believe that although Mormonism cannot be proved by those means, it cannot be disproved either! That is where I come in. The mistake that you and others like you are making is that you try to disproved Mormonism by those means. If I can demonstrate to you that that is not possible, then maybe I can put you on the right track to obtaining the spiritual witness which alone can convince anyone of the truth of Mormonism.
nebula said:
I completely disagree, you are arguing that the matter is nothing but one of subjective opinion. It isn’t. Mormonism as a religion makes loads of specific physical claims and unique metaphysical claims that can and should be examined for hteir reasonableness. Now maybe I will never change zerinus’ mind, that is most likely the case, but I as I know on a peresonal level you never know how these discussions affect a person.
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Thank you, I agree. The testimony of the Holy Ghost that we so much speak of is also not a subjective experience. It may be a private experience. It may not be transferable to someone else. But it is not a subjective experience. Just because you cannot share it with, or transfer it to someone else, it does not make it a subjective experience.
nebula said:
Fair enough. But, I used to be a Mormon defender on internet boards and I had many similar arguments as I am reading now from zerinus and bdawg, and there is no question in my mind that the process of having to thoroughly defend MOrmonism from every sort of attack got my brain thinking about things in ways I wouldn’t have otherwise. So, there is that possibility.

The other thing is, I don’t go into every debate thinking I’m going to convert the other person. That’s actually pretty highly unlikely… but I hope that zerinus, and I, will have gained a little depth and insight into our own thinking by the end.
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I agree, thank you. You are a serious debater, unlike the run of the mill “anti-Mormons” that one meets here, which makes discussing religion with you a positive challenge and a worthwhile experience.

zerinus
 
Tsuzuki said:
I admit it. I started the threads to see what would happen.
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Are you saying that you are also the lizs1988 member who started this thread and one other regarding beginning RCIA? That you and lizs1988 are the same person?
 
zerinus said:
You know what the Mormon position on that is. Maybe it is one that you don’t like, or feel comfortable with; but no denying what it is. The truth of Mormonism rests on the truth of the Book of Mormon, and the claims that Joseph Smith made about it. We believe that the truth of the Book of Mormon can only be determined by the witness of the Holy Spirit. It cannot be determined by scientific investigation, archaeological digging, or DNA analysis. That is the only way that one can know; and that is how I know. Perhaps you will now say, what then is the point of these discussions? Well, I believe there is a point. I believe that although Mormonism cannot be proved by those means, it cannot be disproved either! That is where I come in. The mistake that you and others like you are making is that you try to disproved Mormonism by those means. If I can demonstrate to you that that is not possible, then maybe I can put you on the right track to obtaining the spiritual witness which alone can convince anyone of the truth of Mormonism.

Thank you, I agree. The testimony of the Holy Ghost that we so much speak of is also not a subjective experience. It may be a private experience. It may not be transferable to someone else. But it is not a subjective experience. Just because you cannot share it with, or transfer it to someone else, it does not make it a subjective experience.

I agree, thank you. You are a serious debater, unlike the run of the mill “anti-Mormons” that one meets here, which makes discussing religion with you a positive challenge and a worthwhile experience.

zerinus
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Thanks zerinus, I really have been enjoying our exchange and I’m sincerely glad you have been too. There’s too much mudslinging and bad feelings out there which causes nothing but bitterness.

No, Mormonism cannot be conclusively disproven, it can forever retreat from the physical as it has recently changing the Introduction of the BoM to inform us that the Israelites are not the primary ancestors of the Native Americans, but among them. I also note the decreasing popularity of trying to point to American archaeology to bolster the BoM claims. Or how about the popularity of the notion that Joseph did not literally translate the BoA, but rather it was based on inspiration from the facsimiles… I agree, it could continue on like this. I have to ask though, at what point does this get suspicious?

You mention the witness of the Holy Ghost, and I can truthfully tell you, that the biggest reason I remained Mormon even as I began to doubt the historicity of the BoM and BoA (among other things) was because of powerful spiritual experiences. They made me feel weightless, they made me feel as if electricity was running through my body, a profound sense of peace, as if when I was speaking they weren’t my words. I began to doubt the validity of relying on those experiences when I realized that many other people in different religious systems with opposing viewpoints reported similar experiences. I realized that alone could not stand to tell me the truth, that I ought to at least see if Mormonism is even reasonable, and I think it is through that thought process that I began to seriously re-ask myself the metaphysical questions that got me involved with Mormonism in the first place and see if they were adequately addressed. That’s when I began to think about the nature of God as being a central aspect of addressing those most basic questions about existence, and that Mormonism did not measure up.

I hope it’s not too distracting that I related these points through my personal experiences, but I think the points I wanted to make come through clearly enough.
 
nebula said:
Thanks zerinus, I really have been enjoying our exchange and I’m sincerely glad you have been too. There’s too much mudslinging and bad feelings out there which causes nothing but bitterness.

No, Mormonism cannot be conclusively disproven, it can forever retreat from the physical as it has recently changing the Introduction of the BoM to inform us that the Israelites are not the primary ancestors of the Native Americans, but among them. I also note the decreasing popularity of trying to point to American archaeology to bolster the BoM claims. Or how about the popularity of the notion that Joseph did not literally translate the BoA, but rather it was based on inspiration from the facsimiles… I agree, it could continue on like this. I have to ask though, at what point does this get suspicious?

You mention the witness of the Holy Ghost, and I can truthfully tell you, that the biggest reason I remained Mormon even as I began to doubt the historicity of the BoM and BoA (among other things) was because of powerful spiritual experiences. They made me feel weightless, they made me feel as if electricity was running through my body, a profound sense of peace, as if when I was speaking they weren’t my words. I began to doubt the validity of relying on those experiences when I realized that many other people in different religious systems with opposing viewpoints reported similar experiences. I realized that alone could not stand to tell me the truth, that I ought to at least see if Mormonism is even reasonable, and I think it is through that thought process that I began to seriously re-ask myself the metaphysical questions that got me involved with Mormonism in the first place and see if they were adequately addressed. That’s when I began to think about the nature of God as being a central aspect of addressing those most basic questions about existence, and that Mormonism did not measure up.

I hope it’s not too distracting that I related these points through my personal experiences, but I think the points I wanted to make come through clearly enough.
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Thank you. All I can say is that my “spiritual experiences” leaves me with no possibility of reaonable doubt that Mormonism is true. You are free to doubt that if you wish. I have no control over that unfortunately.

zerinus
 
nebula said:
No, Mormonism cannot be conclusively disproven, it can forever retreat from the physical as it has recently changing the Introduction of the BoM to inform us that the Israelites are not the primary ancestors of the Native Americans, but among them.
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Mormonism can, and has been, conclusively disproved.

Polytheism is easily disproved by Natural Theology.

Mormonism is polytheism.
 
Tsuzuki said:
It was a joke. A quick IP address comparison by a moderator will reveal that we are not the same person.
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It was a nasty joke! Did you even consider how it affect Lizs1988’s ability to get support from the people on this forum in her time of need!

You should send her a PM and apologize for making other people suspicious of her motives. Since your post was reference on Lizs1988’s other post, you should also put a post there informing the people watching that thread that you are not her.
 
Agreed. This sort of “joke” is actually a form of cruelty, not humorous at all. Unfortunately such misguided “humor” is all too common these days. 😦
 
Tsuzuki said:
It was a joke. A quick IP address comparison by a moderator will reveal that we are not the same person.
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I do not believe you. Were you lying then or are you lying now? That you are a liar is something that you yourself admit.

If you are smart enough to suggest and IP traceback, you are smart enough to fake a traceback thus it proves nothing.

You are not an honest person. I suspect that I will not be the only person who refuses to respond to you. You have lost all chance of making friends or earning respect here.
 
Hmmm. I personally do not believe that Tsuzuki ought to be shunned so quickly. Yes, it was a mean joke and he ought to apologize to those he duped (and, assuming he is telling truth now, to Liz especially for making people doubt her), but I am willing to forgive assuming he realizes why it was not the right thing to do and will not be engaging in similar shenanigans in the future. Saying that he has lost all chance of making friends or earning respect here is a little harsh. It’s better to forgive and invite him to earn back our trust by displaying the honesty and humility befitting one who acknowledges that they are in the wrong. I mean, we’ve all been in the wrong at some point. I would want to be forgiven if I were in his position.

How about it, Tsuzuki?
 
rpp said:
I do not believe you. Were you lying then or are you lying now? That you are a liar is something that you yourself admit.

If you are smart enough to suggest and IP traceback, you are smart enough to fake a traceback thus it proves nothing.

You are not an honest person. I suspect that I will not be the only person who refuses to respond to you. You have lost all chance of making friends or earning respect here.
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Augh… this is so confusing…

And couldn’t Tsuzuki have just used a different computer?
 
dzheremi said:
Hmmm. I personally do not believe that Tsuzuki ought to be shunned so quickly. Yes, it was a mean joke and he ought to apologize to those he duped (and, assuming he is telling truth now, to Liz especially for making people doubt her), but I am willing to forgive assuming he realizes why it was not the right thing to do and will not be engaging in similar shenanigans in the future. Saying that he has lost all chance of making friends or earning respect here is a little harsh. It’s better to forgive and invite him to earn back our trust by displaying the honesty and humility befitting one who acknowledges that they are in the wrong. I mean, we’ve all been in the wrong at some point. I would want to be forgiven if I were in his position.

How about it, Tsuzuki?
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He has described himself as an “agent of chaos” on this forum. His *stated *intent is not to engage in meaningful dialog but to stir the pot and offend people.

Besides, how do you know which post is the lie? The one where he admitted he had a sock-puppet identity, or the one where he denied it after he learned that it that is a serious violation of forum rules?
 
CTA1967 said:
Augh… this is so confusing…

And couldn’t Tsuzuki have just used a different computer?
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Or a blackberry, or a phone, or a PDA, or run a little internet utility that flushes and reconnects the internet connection, or lots of different things. All of which are easy or free to get.
 
Tsuzuki said:
It was a joke. A quick IP address comparison by a moderator will reveal that we are not the same person.
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Maybe you have three computers and get a kick out of creating random people on the catholic forums ;), then again… nah, I believe you for what it’s worth.
 
Tsuzuki said:
If Lizs1988 turns out to not be a troll, then I apologize. However, given the speed at which others here believed my (obvious, I thought) joke post, I think they secretly suspect him/her too.
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Anyone who believes that it humorous to make someone the butt of a joke has emotional problems. Whether or not such a “joke” is obvious or not is not the issue. The issue is cruelty. It is cruel to set anyone up as a target of ridicule. Anyone who finds entertainment in cruelty to others needs help.
 
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