I can't receive sacraments because of my husband

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vatoco6:
Hi, I’m Therese, the woman who posted the original question.
Hi Therese.
As for me, well…my husband WAS willing to marry in the Church, until my pastor a the time refused to allow him to read papers he had to sign (regarding things like agreeing to raise our kids Catholic).

His ex-wife and he have never been Catholic. She never wanted kids. Would she admit to that now? Who knows? She was 20, he was 19, and it was 3 1/2 years from “I do” to divorce decree. She left him, joined the Navy, and ran off with a sailor.
Let me get this straight. Your husband was never married in the Church? I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought in the eyes of the Church that would mean he’s never been married at all. No marriage sacrament was conferred, so there’s nothing to annul. The only thing you are doing wrong is living in sin, as if neither of you were ever married.
I caught the aforementioned pastor in a lover’s tryst with his boyfriend a year later, which was the last straw for me. I left the Church. See, I was beaten by nuns as a kid, and I have at least 2 brothers that could belong to SNAP. I saw way too much hypocrisy in the Church, though I did have decent pastors as a teenager. I had no INTENT of coming back to the Church when I married.
No wonder he didn’t take your husband’s marriage seriously, in that your husband should be fully informed of what he was signing. He didn’t take his own vows seriously.
To this day, I have not heard from him what caused him to turn against me. And two months after his change in behavior (he by this time had also become my pastor and my spiritual director), he wrote me a letter on parish letterhead asking for me to have no contact with him in any way. (I had called him twice in the three weeks prior to receiving the letter, just to try to find out what happened. I would hardly call that stalking.)
What a wimp. No matter what you’ve done, I think he at least owes you an explanation – even if it is only two words.
My husband is FURIOUS. He doesn’t want me to have any more to do with a Church that treats its members this way. So he refuses to cooperate with the annulment…and here I am.
It’s hard to blame him. He needs to get over it, though. Anger is not good for the soul.
I feel compelled to keep trying to return “home”, but I seem to have locked myself out, and no one will let me in.
You sound like you could use a blessing about now. When I was learning to write programs in the “php” language I wrote a program to give you a blessing and posted it on a web site I haven’t updated for a while. It gives you a “personalized” version of the Beatitudes with your name in it. Please pay particular attention to the last one. See the program at:
wordsfree.org/attitude.html

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Hi Therese.
Let me get this straight. Your husband was never married in the Church? I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought in the eyes of the Church that would mean he’s never been married at all. No marriage sacrament was conferred, so there’s nothing to annul. The only thing you are doing wrong is living in sin, as if neither of you were ever married.
No wonder he didn’t take your husband’s marriage seriously, in that your husband should be fully informed of what he was signing. He didn’t take his own vows seriously.
What a wimp. No matter what you’ve done, I think he at least owes you an explanation – even if it is only two words.
It’s hard to blame him. He needs to get over it, though. Anger is not good for the soul.
You sound like you could use a blessing about now. When I was learning to write programs in the “php” language I wrote a program to give you a blessing and posted it on a web site I haven’t updated for a while. It gives you a “personalized” version of the Beatitudes with your name in it. Please pay particular attention to the last one. See the program at:
wordsfree.org/attitude.html

Alan
Nope. If two people are validly married outside of the Church (I believe they would have to be both non-Catholics for this to be possible) then the marriage is indeed valid (although not sacramental) and it must be anulled before they can be married in the Church.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Dear Brad,

How could any issue be bigger than not being allowed to receive Jesus Christ at Mass?

Alan
How about not being allowed to attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

The Church requires us to attend Mass each Sunday and on Holy Days – more than 50 times per year.

At the same time we are required to receive the Eucharist once per year.

The Church must have a reason…
 
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Crusader:
Why did you just spend several paragraphs dumping on the Church while attempting to justify your actions and those of your husband?

Are you certain you understand what it means to be a Catholic Christian? The Catholic Church is not a cafeteria where we can pick and choose what we want to accept or reject.

I think you have some work to do before you are ready to return Home.
After reading though all these posts (primarily, perhaps, due to ricatholic’s bizarre take on things), I just came to Therese"s last post. Whoa!!!

Maybe we should ask questions before we attempt to give serious suggestions to people in need of advice. I think this has taught me a lesson, and I ditto everything you have said here, Crusader.

:amen:

Anna
 
I’m sorry that I came across as dumping on the Church. What I described DID happen to me. And no apologies. Would it be allowed, even encouraged in other facets of society? No. Yet, Crusader and Anna seem to think I’m the “bad guy” in this, because I allowed myself to be beaten by nuns at my school as a child, because I allowed the priest to refuse to marry my husband and me, because I allowed my pastor to abandon me.

Mea culpa. Of COURSE it’s my fault! Clergy is never culpable.

Am I willing to live “as brother and sister” because a practicing gay priest wanted blind obedience of my non-Catholic husband 21 years ago? Actually, it wouldn’t matter…my husband now has 2 chronic illnesses that make our intimate life all but non-existent. But when it exists, I like it. That makes me a sinner, and my husband an adulterer, when he’s never been Catholic, and I’ve only been married to him.

Sorry to sound so bitter, but I was raised Catholic. I even started attending RCIA when my last pastor asked me to. This priest hasn’t hurt just me. I love my Jesus. I love the saints. I’m willing to jump through whatever hoops it takes…but my husband also thinks it’s rude for a Church he never belonged to to measure the validity of anything he does.

And now, here Anna and Crusader are, telling me how I don’t belong. Am I angry with the Church? NO. Am I angry at the treatment I’ve received by its “shepherds”? You betcha.
 
Dear Therese,

I also had the same situation with my wife. Though she wrote a letter to the board (mind went blank on what they are called duh), anyway she did not want to contact her ex about annullment, I was annulled she wasnt.

I told her that I would live chaste until we were married in the church. She did not like it but said she was sticking no matter what.

After years of going to Mass, my priest made sure of my vow of abstinence, granted me confession and communion.

Though the Lord did say he did not approve of divorce, He gave his Church the power to loose, or bind.

My wife and I are still celibate and I believe her first marriage would definitely qualify for annullment but she is hard headed and thinks her letter should be good enough for the review board.

Anyway hang in there , go to Mass, and put it in the hands of the Lord, St. Joseph, and our Blessed Mother, they are the Holy family.
 
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vatoco6:
… because a practicing gay priest wanted blind obedience of my non-Catholic husband 21 years ago?
You know, I was just reminded of something I heard but never really knew whether it was true, and I don’t even know where to research it…

Once I was told by what I took to be a fairly reliable source, that a priest must be in the state of grace for Communion he consecrates to be valid. If that’s true, and a priest with unconfessed mortal sins – such as gay activity – says Mass and gives out Communion, wouldn’t that mean all those people to whom he gave Communion were really only getting little pieces of bread, rather than the Body and Blood of Christ?

You know, we should really be praying for the priests who have participated in Church scandal, because as leaders they will be judged to a higher standard than us, and what they did might be nothing compared to what God just might do to them. Luke 17:2: “It would be better for him if a millstone were put around his neck and he be thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.”

Alan
 
I know I’m coming at the tail end of this discussion. This is an assumption, please correct me if I’m wrong but 22 years ago, when you spoke to the priest with yoru husband and filled out the intention of marriage documents, I’m guessing your husband wasn’t honest and you kept silent knowing there was a previous marriage. You lied directly to the Church. That’s a pretty big sin, now your husband wants the Church to accept a “common law marriage” because two decades have passed.

I think it is great that the Church is allowing you to correct this, I pray that your husband will come around and fullfill his obigation by revisiting the past of his first marriage. All the Church is asking is to do something he was suppose to 22 years ago in the first place, and go to confession.

God loves like any parent, but a parent also disciplines. You and your husband lied, I think fullfilling the obligation and confession is the proper discipline to correct the problem. Only if all parents could be so kind and compassionate.
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Once I was told by what I took to be a fairly reliable source, that a priest must be in the state of grace for Communion he consecrates to be valid.
Alan,

What you are suggesting is a heresy known as the Donatist Heresy (named after Donatus). The Donatists believed that the validity of the sacraments of the Church depended on the holiness of the individual minister of the sacrament. The movement began in the aftermath of the persecution of the Emperor Diocletian which started in the early 4th century (303). Many priests were ordered to hand over books or be executed, and those who did were labled “traditores.” When the persecutions were over many Christians believed these men no longer worthy of being members or priests of the Church. Donatism plagued the Church for over a century and no less a Doctor of the Church that St. Augustine of Hippo argued against the Donatists!

During the consecration of the mass, the priest is considered “alter Christus” (another Christ) and as such acts “in persona Christi” (in the person of Christ), which serves to submerge, as it were, the personality of the individual priest, so that he offers Mass in persona Christi.

So while the priest should, in his personal holiness, resemble our Lord, if he does fall into a state of sin any sacrament he administers is still valid.

In Christ,
Greg
 
Renee,

I didn’t lie. It didn’t come up, and I didn’t know it was any big deal. We never got that far with the gay priest. He just said, “Here are papers you have to sign before I will consider marrying you.” And when my husband wanted to read them and consider what he was signing, the priest told us to find someone else to marry us.

My husband was willing at that time to go through Pre-Cana or whatever it took to marry me. But we never got that far with the priest. I never knew I couldn’t receive Communion or Confession until I started studying to return to the Church.

Why do so many people here insist that I’m some sort of nasty person who’s trying to have the rules bent for my benefit? I just wanted guidance, not condemnation.
Therese
 
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vatoco6:
Why do so many people here insist that I’m some sort of nasty person who’s trying to have the rules bent for my benefit? I just wanted guidance, not condemnation.
Therese
Dear Therese,

Some say if it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck. If only my own thoughts were that simple, I might not be as crazy as I am and maybe I would quit getting myself into trouble all the time…

I’m so confused I don’t know whether to apply the above paragraph to your or your ostensible adversaries. (I love that word “ostensible” – makes me feel smart.)

Anyway, in this case, may I lovingly suggest (I’m not attacking you – really) that you might be a bit presumptuous yourself for thinking these people really have judged you? From personal experience, I know that certain devout Christians get extremely defensive when you observe, rightfully or not, that they have been dispensing “condemnation.” We all are socialized to judge and condemn, and Christians are some of the most highly socialized in this regard although they probably try very hard to fight the tendency. After all, from the time we are babies we are taught that we are “good” or “bad” depending on whether or not we do the “right thing.” We are taught to apply the same judgmental attitude toward others, while not necessarily learning at the same time how to do it out of pure love. Of course, when we get a bit older we find that whether we get praise or condemnation really doesn’t depend on whether we do “right” v. “wrong” but in whether we “get caught” v. “appear holy.”

Please allow me to offer another view of those who are chastising you. As far as we know, they are doing it as an act of spiritual mercy, and are concerned for your eternal soul. They have been taught, sometimes for generations, that the Church is innocent until proven guilty, and that anyone who is at odds with the Church is guilty and cannot be proven innocent. They really can’t help how they sound, but I’d like to believe that they just want you to know what is right and wrong so that you may be so enlightened to take the situation into your own hands and do what is necessary to save your own soul. It is not through a lack of sympathy for you, but a lack of empathy. They don’t know how you feel or how they appear to you because their motives are actually so pure that they can’t understand why you would think they are being unkind. Others honestly are too unselfish to care, as they are willing to sacrifice their “friendship” with you in order to exercise “tough love” toward you. So you see, they are not really condemning you at all but trying to save your life. You might try saying the prayer “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”

I hope this helps, and I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m against everybody in the world. Many think I argue just for the sake of arguing and will fight anybody just for sport, but believe me, I honestly think I’m doing it in search of “the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” If I’m mistaken about how I go about it, I suppose I will suffer the consequences and that really scares me. That’s why I ask so many questions and argue so much – I don’t want to be wrong about anything.

Therese, I have a hunch that you really are not trying to fool us or circumvent the spirit or letter of Church law, but I may be wrong. When I am judged for my life on this earth, I think it is a lower risk for me not to have been wrong about your innocence than to have been wrong about your guilt. For your own sake, you have to make up your mind whether I’m right or whether they are right. Come to think of it, that in itself would be judging, now, wouldn’t it?

I’d better shut up now before I get in any deeper. I think I have revealed too much, but I’ll take that risk.

Alan
 
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vatoco6:
We never got that far with the gay priest. He just said, “Here are papers you have to sign before I will consider marrying you.” And when my husband wanted to read them and consider what he was signing, the priest told us to find someone else to marry us.
Dear Therese,

Do you think maybe that’s how it was presented to him when he was asked to take a vow of chastity? Maybe he thinks wanting to know what you’re agreeing to is tantamount to distrust. Maybe he wasn’t trained in the Church’s teachings on homosexuality? How old is he; maybe they didn’t cover that topic in the seminary back then?

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Dear Therese,

Do you think maybe that’s how it was presented to him when he was asked to take a vow of chastity? Maybe he thinks wanting to know what you’re agreeing to is tantamount to distrust. Maybe he wasn’t trained in the Church’s teachings on homosexuality? How old is he; maybe they didn’t cover that topic in the seminary back then?

Alan
Dear all,

I’m sorry for that last post. I’m guess I’m always trying to defend everyone. The more I think about the more I just cannot believe that a priest in the last fifty years did not know that having homosexual relations is “abominable” according to the Bible. I cannot defend him; I can only pray for his soul but I’m afraid my prayers won’t mean too much because even though I don’t know him I’m still angry with him.

Alan
 
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vatoco6:
Sorry to sound so bitter, but I was raised Catholic. I even started attending RCIA when my last pastor asked me to. This priest hasn’t hurt just me. I love my Jesus. I love the saints. I’m willing to jump through whatever hoops it takes…but my husband also thinks it’s rude for a Church he never belonged to to measure the validity of anything he does.
Let me begin that unfortunately you have not had good expierences with the clergy, and for this I am truely sorry. Please note that they really are the minority, and please keep searching and looking to come home to the church, there really are many wonderful priests out there. From what I read above most of the posters are praying for you not judging you, but also letting you know the truth of the situation which sometimes can seem harsh (especially when we don’t have all the facts). What I really want to address though is your husbands first marriage, because all else hinges on this. Outside of being at a young age, there are no facts. It is not rude of the church to measure whether his first marriage was valid. The Catholic church doesn’t begin to assume that just because the marriage didn’t take place in the Catholic Church that is wasn’t a marriage, just maybe not a sacramental one. Therefore, the church cannot begin to bless or acknowledge your/his current marriage until they determine whether his first one was a true marriage or not (there cannot be two marriages). So it is really not about being rude, as to what is right. And I am supposing that this is what you are after, the right thing to do to re-enter the church. So I pray and ask that you let go and let God help heal past hurts. Maybe God wants you to be completely healed from past hurts, to better understand the churchs teachings (not just a few priests wayward actions and ideas) to make a true new beginning in the Catholic Church. May God strengthen you, and guide you on this journey.
 
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vatoco6:
Renee,

I didn’t lie. It didn’t come up, and I didn’t know it was any big deal. We never got that far with the gay priest. He just said, “Here are papers you have to sign before I will consider marrying you.” And when my husband wanted to read them and consider what he was signing, the priest told us to find someone else to marry us.

Therese
Argh What a Nightmare! Priests need to carry malpractice insurance for this. Prayers indeed for you, thanks for clarifying.
 
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vatoco6:
I have been informed (by my Archbishop, no less) that I can’t receive Communion or make a Confession without my husband having his first (brief, teenaged) marriage annulled.
My husband
  1. doesn’t want to revisit his first marriage in any way, some 25 years after the fact,
  2. would really prefer I NOT “come home” to the Church after 20 years away (long story), and
  3. thinks 21 years of marriage is long enough to make our marriage valid in ANY church!
    So, what do I do? Can I get his first marriage annulled by myself? And what’s the point of going to Mass when I can’t participate?
    Therese
Dear Friend:

You have got to make a choice here if your Catholic Faith is important enough to YOU to do what it takes. All of us face many different things—challenges, persecutions. It all boils down to YOU–if YOU can do what God asks of you.

Pray about it~ Seeks Wisdom~ If our Lord is calling YOU and has a plan~ you MUST take heed.

If you lived closer I would be your friend through it all.

Don’t lose heart. We are all with you through it.

God Bless~~
 
Archbishop Chaput is very awesome and if he says this to you it is only because he is looking out for your soul. It isn’t your boyfriend’s fault that you cannot receive the sacraments, at least not completely. You have to remember that you also are with him by your own will. So please listen to your Archbishop.

I have met him before and I live about 2 hours away from your diocese so I have been there to hear his homilies before. Do not stay in your situation until your husband dies. Fix it, even if you have to make the hard decision of separating yourself from him until he does get that annulment. Ask your Archbishop what you have to do to get yourself out of your situation despite what your boyfriend decides not to do. You can only pray and encourage your boyfriend to do what is right, but after that you have to lead by example in doing the right thing no matter how hard that may be.

God bless you and please know that I am not saying this to be mean, but am saying this because you asked this honest question and I am trying to give you an honest answer. God bless you.
 
Well, so far what I’ve learned is:
  1. Because my husband’s ex never wanted to have kids, the first marriage may not have been valid (according to the Church, even though they were married by a minister), and
  2. they were both young, and our marriage has already lasted for almost 21 years.
I’ll talk to the tribunal, and maybe the Archbishop again.

I wish there were a support group that was Church-sanctioned for people like me. SNAP is so angry. And there’s only 2 formal programs for returning Catholics in the whole Denver metro area! Amazing.
 
I can’t comprehend how frustrating this can be, but I don’t think “they were both young” is the best argument. Maybe because I met my husband when I was young, and I’ve seen people get divorce after 20+ years. So I’m taken back.

Even though no fault of your own, you are in this mess I don’t see how your husband can get out of an annulment. It was something that was suppose to be done 21 years ago, and it has to be addressed. Please seek help from the tribunal. I wish you the best.
 
Hello everyone

I’m a little confused about all of this. I understand why Therese isn’t allowed to take communion from the church’s standpoint. In the church’s eye’s, you’re sinning because it doesn’t see the two as being married. But I don’t understand why she isn’t allowed confession. Just because you’re a sinner who isn’t ready to repent from one thing means that you can’t confess another? Doesn’t God want us to come back to him, even if at that time we can only take a step? I don’t understand.

And Therese, this is the way I see it between you and your husband:
If he gets his old marriage annulled, he will have to bear some heartache at seeing his ex-wife. He may have to expend some extra effort at just finding her, and then more at talking to her. It may dig up old resentment. But if this is hurting you, if you are in genuine pain here, then he should be able to do that for you. I’m only 19, and I don’t pretend to be an expert at marriages; but I think that yes, a wife should obey and submit to her husband, but a husband should serve his wife and make all his decisions in her best intrest. Even when my ex-boyfriend (now my friend), saw me cry, saw me hurting, I knew it was hurting him as much as it was me. And I think if a husband sees his wife in pain- pain that shouldn’t be there- he should do everything in his power to take it away. And please forgive me if I speak too boldly in saying this, but I think your husband is just being selfish. The effort that it takes to get his old marriage annulled and the resentment he may feel toward his ex-wife should be nothing compared to seeing you happy. Again, I know that it is probably not my place to say this, because I do not know you or your husband or know what is in your hearts, but this is just the way I am seeing it.

Also, I’m getting the feeling that you two may be encountering a Protestant/Catholic wall because of the way you were saying how he preffered that you not come home to the church. That could be the main reason why he wouldn’t want to go through with the annullment-because it could make things very difficult. (In raising children, contraception, infant or adult baptism… lots of things). If that is the case, then I’m guessing you two have bigger issues that you really need to talk to eachother about and pray about.

May God bless you and your marriage, and may you both grow closer to God together.
 
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