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Irishmom2
Guest
Both of these posts have excellent points, though differing views.
But the one thing they both have in common Holly, is that you should talk to your priest. He knows you, and David, and your situations more than any of us here. He would be the best one to advise you. May God bless you and David and Colton.
C
ClearWater
Guest
Will you lose your SSI by living together? Make sure you won’t first.
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ClearWater
Guest
I agree wholeheartedly.
I have a disability and am on SSD. SSI is even more restrictive. I have come to Mexico, because I was at least able to survive here. In SSI, you can’t leave the state you’re receiving benefits.
You will need both your health benefits and income, small as it is, for your family. I believe a person has a right to try to survive.
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1ke
Guest
Canon law 1071.2 and Canons 1130-1133 apply.
The bishop would have to grant permission for a priest or deacon to conduct a secret marriage. It is rarely done. I don’t know of any documented cases where it has been done., but of course they are secret.
There are four pages dedicated to this topic in the New Commentary for the code of canon law. It seems to imply that this is rare, and doing this for benefits reasons could be fraud and open the bishop and priest to prosecution.
See here for an explanation:
wdtprs.com/blog/2014/01/ask-father-secret-marriage-to-avoid-government/
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b00kbabe
Guest
Hello Holly,
This question does have an answer, but it is multifaceted not quick and simple. Let’s look at this logically and try to put things in their proper order.
I hope this doesn’t sound snarky, but your description indicates that you and your child’s father have already gotten these fundamental steps in backward order which calls into question whether or not you two have been taught the fundamentals of marriage to be able to enter into one with the proper disposition and knowledge to make it both sacramental and successful.
Before doing anything else, I suggest that you schedule an appointment with your priest during which you should ask whether taking pre-cana classes will be sufficent preparation or if he suggests one on one counseling or taking the full catechisis through the RCIA program.
If God is calling you to the vocation of marriage, with its responsibilities, perhaps this is a good time to discern what occupational vocation He plans for you and your husband - so you will be able to raise this child as well as the others to be brought forth from the fruitfulness of your union.
May God bless all three of you and grant you wisdom through your prayers.
This question does have an answer, but it is multifaceted not quick and simple. Let’s look at this logically and try to put things in their proper order.
- Trust that God has a plan for your life. We pray in the Lord’s prayer to “give us our daily bread” and we also know from holy scripture, that we are to trust and depend on God for everything. Read Mat 6:25-34 for text and notes on “Dependence on God”.
www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/6 - What is marriage? Marriage is a vocation of sacrifice. Husband and wife come together to make God the center of their life. The Love that God is and has for them along with the love they have for God come together to unite the couple for the good of each other. They are bound together by God’s divine love. www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm
I hope this doesn’t sound snarky, but your description indicates that you and your child’s father have already gotten these fundamental steps in backward order which calls into question whether or not you two have been taught the fundamentals of marriage to be able to enter into one with the proper disposition and knowledge to make it both sacramental and successful.
Before doing anything else, I suggest that you schedule an appointment with your priest during which you should ask whether taking pre-cana classes will be sufficent preparation or if he suggests one on one counseling or taking the full catechisis through the RCIA program.
- The second appointment you’ll want to make will be with Social Security to discuss their “Ticket to Work” program
www.disabilitysecrets.com/dnewsblog/2008/01/social-security-ticket-to-work-program.html
If God is calling you to the vocation of marriage, with its responsibilities, perhaps this is a good time to discern what occupational vocation He plans for you and your husband - so you will be able to raise this child as well as the others to be brought forth from the fruitfulness of your union.
May God bless all three of you and grant you wisdom through your prayers.
C
CaptFun
Guest
The Church would say to get married
and lose your benefits. :nope: *- separate issue. The Church knows poor people need help. Seldom oppose them getting it. *I would say in that case to live together.
People who have never lived hand-to-mouth might not understand what they are asking you to do by giving up your benefits. :sad_yes: Unfortunately, the system is set up in such a way as to put one at a severe disadvantage by marrying at times. :sad_yes: *- IMO this is not accidental. This outcome is too anti-family/morality in the usual way to have been stumbled upon by accident and never fixed. *I think I know a little bit about what you’re going through. If I ever marry my boyfriend, he will lose his health benefits. He has a disability, and I’d hate to do that to him. It would require a lot of thought and consideration.
I am sorry about your situation. :sad_yes: - me too. Have a similar family situation. Not me. A relative and spouse (common law by now? 20 years living together with an (unofficial legally) promise exchange at a storefront “church”).Woman keeps her maiden name … but all consider them married. They go to Catholic Church now. One of them refrains from communion. .
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jmjZelie
Guest
Yes. This is a good post.
I have family in Indiana who have disability benefits due to chronic illnesses. They are below the poverty line. It is a struggle. They often rely upon their parish and the Salvation Army to make ends meet.
I think that Holly’s parish might be a helpful resource for her to locate the assistance she needs to keep a roof over her head and food on the table.
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Xantippe
Guest
This is swerving off topic, but I have experience with post-Soviet Russia and my husband’s family has a lot of communist-era Eastern European experience. Toward the end of communism in both the Soviet Union and my husband’s country of origin, there were empty stores and hunger–there’s never enough food in communist countries. My Eastern European MIL at some point was eyeing the ornamental carp at a public garden with great longing…It was a great achievement for Russian friends of mine who had their baby in the early 1980s to manage to lay hands on cow’s milk for their toddler. Even the most basic staples had to be schemed and connived at.
One thing you can say about capitalism is it produces A LOT of food.
Also, when I knew Russian doctors in the Russian Far East in the immediate post-communist era, they were working for under $40 a month. That’s a MONTH, not a week, and teachers made much more. Doctors were academically often the cream of the crop and it was possible to get gifts from grateful patients (my husband’s grandfather was a doctor and often got gifts), but that gives you an idea of the level of state investment made in health care. The level of treatment available to people with chronic ailments like diabetes was tragically bad–one of my old friends is a Russian diabetic and had she lived in the previous generation, she would have died young just like her diabetic auntie. People who have chronic ailments like diabetes cannot survive the sort of intermittent treatment typical of a medical system where medications and supplies come and go and there’s no access to foreign products. (My diabetic Russian friend has been kept alive largely on European and American diabetic supplies.)
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oldgraymare2
Guest
Holly,
I agree with talking to your priest.
I would also see if you could find out about what other resources are available to you as a married couple, like if you would be eligible for housing benefits/low-income housing, what your tax situation would be together as a married couple, too, for some examples.
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WillyAL
Guest
And they should be procecuted for their role in this fraud.
While I am very much aware of the struggles the poor and disabled are often faced with, and I acknowledge that our laws sometimes make their situations worse, fraud is not the answer. We don’t get to pick and choose which laws we will obey.
An interesting and thoughtful explanation until the good Fr. Z laid all his cards on the table:
Couldn’t resist taking a swipe at the president, even when the topic at hand has nothing to do with Obama. A bit of credibility lost there…from my perspective anyway.
H
Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I still don’t understand what talking to a priest does. The idea that a “secret” marriage exists does not mean it’s an avenue to be explored. For all we know holly’s case would be the first in American history…
There really is no reason to have this dilemma. There are many many programs that can help any number if people. From food stamps to housing to childcare. We live in one of the largest welfare states in the world. Yes you have to know where to look and yes you can give up privacy and yes you might have to jump through hoops but it’s there.
Op. While it is north of you I have a dear friend who works in the food stamp department. He might have at least some suggestions if you need them. Will your husband be working? Medical benifits are a spousal plus!
Many hospitals there including IU and St Elizabeth are very workable.
My wife earned six figures there but we only had the one income with five kids. After a month of paperwork IU cut our delivery bill in half. My MIL, had some mental problems there and her entire treatment was covered.
On a side note, I have long pointed out that the church should divorce ( pun intended) herself from civil marriage altogether. Once civil law fundamentally changed what marriage is there really is no common ground. The idea that to even investigate the validity of a marriage the church submits to the state and requires a state certificate to investigate one of her own sacraments is again an example of the idiocy of church and state in unequal roles in a sacrament.
I do wish that with all the hullabaloo and attention on “families” at the synod(s) this was addressed and that the church would lead in areas of the family instead of being reactionary. Redefinition of marriage appears to follow our pontiff from place to place:
Who will stand up for the families?
There really is no reason to have this dilemma. There are many many programs that can help any number if people. From food stamps to housing to childcare. We live in one of the largest welfare states in the world. Yes you have to know where to look and yes you can give up privacy and yes you might have to jump through hoops but it’s there.
Op. While it is north of you I have a dear friend who works in the food stamp department. He might have at least some suggestions if you need them. Will your husband be working? Medical benifits are a spousal plus!
Many hospitals there including IU and St Elizabeth are very workable.
My wife earned six figures there but we only had the one income with five kids. After a month of paperwork IU cut our delivery bill in half. My MIL, had some mental problems there and her entire treatment was covered.
On a side note, I have long pointed out that the church should divorce ( pun intended) herself from civil marriage altogether. Once civil law fundamentally changed what marriage is there really is no common ground. The idea that to even investigate the validity of a marriage the church submits to the state and requires a state certificate to investigate one of her own sacraments is again an example of the idiocy of church and state in unequal roles in a sacrament.
I do wish that with all the hullabaloo and attention on “families” at the synod(s) this was addressed and that the church would lead in areas of the family instead of being reactionary. Redefinition of marriage appears to follow our pontiff from place to place:
Who will stand up for the families?
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bitterhope
Guest
One gigantically huge reason for talking to the priest is that he may (priests often do) know of local organizations that are able to step in to help out if/when benefits are lost. They also usually have lists of diocesan programs that this family may qualify for, they may know parishioners that are seeking to help individuals, local businesses, even sometimes lawyers able to help advocate and navigate the system for them. Priests have access to much information. They are also good at counseling and giving the spiritual support needed to struggling families.
This is kind of a scary post for me to type because it opens my family up to a lot of criticism that I’m not sure I’m able to deal with at the moment. Trying to trust this is going to be helpful for someone else and therefore worth it. Maybe that’s why the desire to write this has been placed in my heart. There was a time when my husband and I ran into an even tighter spot than normal for us. We were running out of food before the month was over. Our kids never realized this because they ate even when we didn’t, and they were all very young still. Out of embarrassment we didn’t want anyone to know, but t really got me down. I finally spoke to my priest. I didn’t ask for help, I just asked him to pray for me to have the strength to persevere. Two days later, the Knights of Columbus came with food basket number one. Two weeks later, another basket. Two weeks later, another basket. Another parishioner donated grocery gift cards to add fresh produce and meats. In the end, we had received 10 food baskets and $500 worth of grocery gift cards. No one would tell me who was behind the donations. They were simply wanting to help a family that truly needed it and would not waste it. Through their generosity and love, our family made it through a very rough year and ended up able to put enough money aside for the first time ever to buy new shoes for all 5 of our little ones plus a stuffed toy for our soon to be born #6. No one would let us repay in any way the debt we owed. They told us to repay it by helping another family if possible in the future, but by simply continuing to raise our children to be good and generous people is more than enough payment.
There are many good people sitting quietly in the shadows waiting to step up when a need arises. These people usually make this desire known to their priests but want no one else to know that they are doing it. They don’t want the glory but want the glory to go to God alone. This is why I really think she should speak to her priest. Life never really gets easier although situations can swing from impossible to possible if the right resources are tapped into. there are always ways to make family work if people are willing to work at it.
PS-- I agree with you 100% about the church and marriage.
H
Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Thanks for posting that! That is a great point about a priest. You are lucky to have such a man as your “father”.
I was looking at it as a legalistic talk about marriage with the priest but you bring up a great point.
Nobody should criticize you!
Thanks for posting that.
We have dear friends who are just going through an incredibly rough time right now. It happens to many many people. The community and especially the parish needs to know when someone is struggling. Sometimes we never know. And then POW a divorce out of “nowhere” or a home in forclosure, or I’ve even seen cases where the family was litterally eating roadkill. An active, faithful, family. And no one knew…
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Irishmom2
Guest
Bitterhope, thank you for sharing your story. I am sure that someone reading it will be helped and find hope by what you have shared. God bless you and your family.
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oldgraymare2
Guest
You bring up some great points in your post, and I wanted to say that I am so glad that you got the help when you needed it.
Sometimes I don’t think that people may even realize the help that may even be available through their own parishes.
The best thing to do would be to go and talk to their pastor, to see what assistance is available for them, both in the parish, and outside in the greater community.
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bitterhope
Guest
It happens more than most people realize. I still email that priest at times. He is a truly good shepherd. Every parish should be so lucky as that tiny central Kentucky church was. He’s retired now but he still fills in at various parishes as needed. I wish we lived closer so we could attend Mass with him again. He hasn’t met our younger kids
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Xantippe
Guest
Yes.
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Kelfa28
Guest
Bitterhope…you aren’t the only one.
Last year when hubby was laid off…we were okay and we seemed to make things work.
When I got pregnant with my third. I honestly don’t know what happened but everything got much, much harder…financially…I think the pressure of a drop in income was taking it’s toll.
Then my husband was employed again but we were playing catch up with all of the bills we were so behind on…plus, we needed a van to fit our new family size.
Then, we had to give up food stamps because my husband was working…but we were now having trouble fitting a monthly food bill for a family of 5 into our budget…couple that with my husband’s work screwing up his pay for 2 months and we were at capacity.
We had no food in the house. Nothing. And no money to buy some…that extra money had to go to gas so my husband could get to work.
Then out-of-the-blue a church friend asked us if we wanted to be on the meal-train just for some extra help with our new baby.
I said yes and we started getting weekly homemade meals for a month. It was literally a God-send.
It took a few months…but we are finally recovering. It was really stressful…and it was the most difficult part of my marriage, the darkest period of my PP depression and the time my faith was tested the most.
We got through it…somehow. But I wouldn’t do it again.
OP…that is a tough situation. But, I would start asking for help. You can still get WIC and food stamps with a baby…even if you are married. Just start asking at Church or the Doctor’s office you frequent.
Last year when hubby was laid off…we were okay and we seemed to make things work.
When I got pregnant with my third. I honestly don’t know what happened but everything got much, much harder…financially…I think the pressure of a drop in income was taking it’s toll.
Then my husband was employed again but we were playing catch up with all of the bills we were so behind on…plus, we needed a van to fit our new family size.
Then, we had to give up food stamps because my husband was working…but we were now having trouble fitting a monthly food bill for a family of 5 into our budget…couple that with my husband’s work screwing up his pay for 2 months and we were at capacity.
We had no food in the house. Nothing. And no money to buy some…that extra money had to go to gas so my husband could get to work.
Then out-of-the-blue a church friend asked us if we wanted to be on the meal-train just for some extra help with our new baby.
I said yes and we started getting weekly homemade meals for a month. It was literally a God-send.
It took a few months…but we are finally recovering. It was really stressful…and it was the most difficult part of my marriage, the darkest period of my PP depression and the time my faith was tested the most.
We got through it…somehow. But I wouldn’t do it again.
OP…that is a tough situation. But, I would start asking for help. You can still get WIC and food stamps with a baby…even if you are married. Just start asking at Church or the Doctor’s office you frequent.
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Adonia
Guest
So here you go advising her to seek more government assistance. Hey, when are people going to start being responsible for themselves and why are these two people having children if they are not able to financially take care of them? Not to mention the fact that they are also not married. The OP says she is a Catholic, does she not know that the Church is against this sort of thing? It is distressing that most of the respondents here seem to have no problem with the lifestyle of these two people.
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