Idolatry & Disordered Affection

[JoyToBeCatholic]

JTBC, have you ever heard or read anything on the Divine Mercy?

My kids were singing it before they could even talk.

Have you seen the image painted under St. Faustina’s direction to E. Kazimirowski in 1934?

I have one in my attic.

through St. Faustina, the merciful Savior has given the aching world new channels for the out pouring of His grace. These new channels include the image of the Divine Mercy. Jesus said to her: Paint an image according to the pattern you see with the signature: Jesus I trust in you. I promise that the soul that will venerate this image will not perish. I also promise victory over enemies already here on earth, especially at the hour of death. I myself will defend it as My own glory I am offering people a vessel with which they are to keep coming for graces to the fountain of Mercy. that vessel is this image with the signature: " Jesus, I trust in you" I desire that this image be venerated, first in your chapel, and then throughout the world.

Jesus, I trust in you.

I used to do a 3:00 devotion on the DCF message board posting that chaplet for the intentions of the board.

I have St. Faustina’s diary. I had a “contemplative” experience on a retreat with the Carmelites the day of her canonization.

I don’t know what to think of any of it…

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Careful, your vitriol is showing.

More hatred…

You are anti-catholic, and are a very angry person at the Catholic Church.

Yes - if indeed the church is teaching error to the extent it appears to me to be then I am against being a part of it. You can call that “anti-Catholic” if you want to, but it is not.

Jesus said there would be days like this. Keep the persecution coming…

WHO is doing the persecuting??? Don’t be hypocritical.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

With all due respect, you are not any priest of our faith.

You posted my comment out of context - misrepresenting my intention. This was the conversation: I was (again) being accused of judging people’s intentions and was told that I cannot know the hearts of another…:
Originally Posted by JoyToBeCatholic forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Neither does the church know the hearts of those who chose to live together before marriage - or the hearts of those who chose abortion… but it does judge the acts. Do you accuse your own church of being judgmental? In giving Catholicism consideration, should I not judge the ACTIONS I see in the church? The practices? The teachings? *

Steven C.: She (Catholic Church) is a hospital for sinners.

That was when I said we are all priests. We are the priesthood of all believers. It is in Scripture. I only added to what he said b/c his implication about the church being a hospital seemed to deny that we have the ability to minister to one another. That is all. You read more into it than was there.

So I was not claiming to be judging people. I was explaining that I was judging the church and the actions it encourages/teaches and that even the church makes “judgments” w/out knowing the intentions of people. We are not God so we cannot judge by intentions - but we are to test teachings - and that is just what I am doing: comparing the teaching that it is ok to use images in worship to the Bible.

You do not have the commission or authority to correct Catholics about their faith practices

I wasn’t trying to correct anyone. But actually I do have that commission- and so do you. As brothers and sisters in Christ we ARE supposed to try correct one another when we see what appears to be error. It’s okay to do that, even when the thing turns out NOT to be an error you know. I wouldn’t be ashamed to discover that I was wrong. Would you? Why do you take such a defensive stance instead of simply showing what it is that is wrong in my understanding about this? All I am doing is presenting my understand about it. Read the original post before everyone got heated. There is not hatred or judgmentalism in it.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

I highly suggest you take a break. Message boards can take on a life of their own. People will say “it’s just a message board”. well, these types of conversations can really get overwhelming on our mind. You have 10 different things coming at you from
20 different angles. Take a break.Sign off and spend some quiet time with your family and take a break from apologetics from either side. Go to the library and grab a novel and curl up in the bed and give yourself a break. Rent a DVD. Just chill for a while. Get some exercise and get those endorphins flowing.

When we are in conflict with others it will affect other areas of our life. This can rollover to your personal life,or even work. Give yourself a break. You deserve it. I believe the Catholic Church is the one Church,but I also believe in the well being of my brothers and sisters in Christ. God will not force Himself on you and it can appear if we are trying to do that. Deep down we truly care about which road you take. Please know that.

God Bless, tim

Thank you. I do recognize that - you’ve been very respectful, charitable, and insightful. Yes, this conversation has taken it’s toll and I should probably give it a rest.

Bless You~

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Howdy, JTBC!

I’ve been reading this discussion, and it’s very interesting… And I’m not going to join in, because I’m not that great at discussion. But I would like to say, that I’ll be praying for you, JTBC, and I hope you are successful in finding the truth.

Since I’m a Catholic, I think it would be pretty pointless for me to say I disagree with you, since you’ve made it clear that you don’t see eye to eye with the Church anyway. And believe me, I understand, (I have a couple Bible Christian friends) and I’m not trying to convert you, although I obviously hope you do. But my prayers are with you, and may God bless you!

Thank you for your charity. I wouldn’t mind you disagreeing with me. It is clear that at the moment I don’t see eye to eye with the church, but it will not help me to see eye to eye with it if people refrain from explaining why they disagree…

Anyway, I typically don’t like the confrontation and try to avoid posting altogether. I only do it when I really feel the need. So I can understand your decision.

Thank you for prayers!
Blessings~

 

[bookgirl32]

JTBC,

It would seem to me that it would be easier for you to decide FIRST if you believe in sola scriptura or not.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

How can you possibly get out of this that the worship was directed to God?
I think their intention was to worship the gods of Egypt. In what way does this calf represent any attributes of the almighty?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Bowing down to people is okay though?

There are instances in the Bible of people doing it - that is fine. In some cases the Scripture is showing that it is wrong - in some it is silent - in some it is okay b/c of WHY it is being done. But the church teaches it is ok to do to objects - and it is explicitly condemned by God to do such a thing.

The intention of each and every individual is not my concern and shouldn’t be the church’s concern either in putting forth such a teaching. Listen now:

*****Just like the church doesn’t excuse abortion b/c some people do it with good intentions or in ignorance. Just like the church doesn’t excuse contraception b/c some people mean well. Just like the church doesn’t excuse co-habitation before marriage regardless of good intentions… *****
In this case, the church should not excuse the use of graven images or likenesses of things in worship b/c some people will have the good intention of directing all their thoughts and prayers to God while kneeling in front of it. B/c for every person with a good intention that was excused by God, someone will burn in Hell b/c they subtly fell into idolatry by setting their attention and affection on the image.

The church puts forth a teaching on abortion, co-habitation, contraception etc. REGARDLESS OF GOOD INTENTIONS **b/c it recognizes human weakness in these areas and the likelihood it will produce sin **in at least some if not most. Seeing how often the Israelites fell into the sin of idolatry should be a RED FLAG to the church that this is one of those areas of human weakness that often has led to sin - and it should condemn or at least discourage the practice.

We have not come a long way since the dessert. We are still a weak, sinful people. Haven’t we learned anything from the oodles of examples of idolatry in the OT?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Here we have King David (though inspired by God) giving directions to the future King Solomon for the layout of the temple and which includes statues whose wings cover the Ark.

I’m sorry, but I have already answered this numerous times…

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

If scripture interpreted scripture than how do we have so many people arguing over the interpretation of scripture?

I already answered this too. You’ll find much a much more in-depth (and on-topic) discussion of it in the circular argument thread.

And, I don’t remember who told you to do this, but I do think taking a break would be a good idea. I don’t know how you can keep track of who is posting to you and what after nine pages of it. I need to take a break too, but it is addicting!

That it is! I can’t wait for it to end! Thanks for the advice

 

[guanophore]

When and if I do decide to receive believers baptism in this church I want to leave no stone unturned (as far as humanly possible anyway.

You are ready! Take the plunge!

If God convicts in the future that is just fine!) I’m being as thorough as I can in getting across the non-Catholic beliefs I’ve developed so I can see if they really stand.

They are standing just fine.

If I truly had these convictions I wouldn’t bother coming here to discuss them.

Oh, it is pretty clear that you came here to show us our error.

the way I am considering them then I will never get to the bottom of this.

Oh, I think you are pretty well on the bottom now.

And should I not judge the teachings of a church if I am giving it consideration? The church encourages an ACTION (not intention) that is idolatrous. My beef is with the church here - not the people. I don’t know why you feel it is a personal attack.

’

It’s the “shoulds”.

Be honest. You are not now, nor have you ever given the Catholic Church “consideration”. You came to yourself, according to your own testimony, and abandoned what was idolatry for you.

Yes, I mostly have, but I’m still not ready yet. Call this a last-ditch effort that so far has done nothing by strengthen my convictions.

You are ready. I think, on the contrary, this thread has strengthened your convictions.

I am tolerant of what others do, but I have to KNOW for myself (as much as humanly possible) that I should not return to the Catholic faith and why. When I say about correcting an error and so forth I am not saying that I am trying to do that to all of you. I am saying that that is the CHURCH’s job to do, yet instead it encourages this practice. I am discussing a CHURCH TEACHING and the results of it in ACTION (not intention).

Your tolerance sure doesn’t show! It seems to me that you never were in the Catholic faith, so have no fear, it will not be possible to “return”. If you went back to what you had, it would be idolatry anyhow, so it is best not to look back.

Yes I said we are all priests and we should admonish one another in error, but I did not say this b/c that is what I am actually doing here! I can see it does appear that way though.

At least we can agree about something.

Maybe I am being inconsiderate in how I am presenting my train of thought and if I am I do appologize.

I will accept this apology if you are willing to stop instructing others on how they should worship, and whether or not they ARE worshipping.

I need to come at it from every angle until I either conclude that it IS an error the church teaches, or that it is a positive aid for Christians.

The Head of the Church is Christ, an the Soul of the Church is the HS. This presence of divinity is what prevents the Church from teaching error.

And we VERY RARELY read the Bible and were not encouraged to do so. (Btw - this was the 70s/80s)

This was my experience too. It was the Anabaptists and Menonites that taught me to love the scripture, and I do not regret my sojourn. I hope that yours is as productive. If and when you do come back to CAF, though, I hope you will choose a username that is more genuine.

I have rarely run into someone with less Joy about Catholcism.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

And the New Testament does not have one bad thing to say about statues or icons.

You are right - it simply says not to make them to bow down to etc…

While it has plenty of bad things to say about idols. And it even defines what true idolatry is - do you know what it says true idolatry is? You might be very surprised.

You can enlighten me if you wish. First, read my initial post so you can see more of my thoughts on that - most of which have been overlooked in the discussions here.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

JTBC,

It would seem to me that it would be easier for you to decide FIRST if you believe in sola scriptura or not.

I’ve done that. The circular argument thread I started back in November is still going strong.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

You are ready! Take the plunge!
They are standing just fine.
Oh, it is pretty clear that you came here to show us our error.
Oh, I think you are pretty well on the bottom now.

Not going to ruin my health over reading the rest… Lord have mercy on you…

 

[GreenLantern]

I’m sorry, but I have already answered this numerous times…

Ark of the Covenant =/= Temple of Jerusalem.
You said the Ark was a special case because God himself mandated it’s creation and not humans which isn’t the exact same case with the Temple of Jerusalem even though that had statues.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Earlier I attempted to leave this discussion b/c it has been too heated, but people continued to post to it - obligating me to respond. I have been repeatedly misrepresented, falsly accused, and the object of your anti-protestant hatred. This doesn’t include everyone, but a significant amount of posters do not simply disagree and discuss, but are hostile, defensive and offensive. I’ve no problem with disagreement, but I do not willfully participate in hateful confrontations. I prefer to be silent and not defensive when confronted with situations like this.

God Bless, and Lord have mercy on us.

Over and out…
:tiphat:

 

[bookgirl32]

I’ve done that. The circular argument thread I started back in November is still going strong.

Yeah, I keep seeing how many pages are on that one and avoiding it b/c I’m on this one so much

 

[VociMike]

You are right - it simply says not to make them to bow down to etc…

Where does the NT say not to make statues or icons (as opposed to idols)?

You can enlighten me if you wish. First, read my initial post so you can see more of my thoughts on that - most of which have been overlooked in the discussions here.

Idolatry is identified as covetousness. Or rather, covetousness is identified as idolatry.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Where does the NT say not to make statues or icons (as opposed to idols)?

I’m sorry, but I already answered this.

Idolatry is identified as covetousness. Or rather, covetousness is identified as idolatry.

Covetousness is a seperate commandment - dealt with in 2 commandments, actually: coveting things, and coveting people. Idolatry is giving something or someone disordered affection (please read my original post). Sometimes it is obvious and sometime it is more subtle - like when people have a disordered affection for money and so focus their lives on the pursuit for it. Anytime we take our focus off of God and His will in favor of something or someone else (including self) we are committing idolatry.

Again, hoping to put an end to this conversation for the sake of peace. I think too much has already been said.

Blessings~

 

[po18guy]

I find these evangelical threads to be amusing. The abject ignorance of the Catholic faith that is displayed raises questions of the OP’s authenticity and motives. The absolute arrogance of the very premise reveals a certain deficiency of intellectual rigor. The choice of user name stands as stark evidence of bitter cynicism. The subsequent intransigence of anti-Catholic bigotry that is put forth reveals that the OP is in great need of prayer. I suggest that we all lift the OP up to the Holy Spirit.

We say “We believe that there is much more depth and richness to the Christian faith than you currently know”

They say “You are idol worshippers and are all going to hell”

Pray for them.