If evolution theory were true

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steveandersen:
The human eye has the same evolutionary origins as all land vertebrates

For invertebrates however there are many configurations of the eye many with separate origins.

Insects, arachnids, mollusks etc all completely independently evolved
Although since light sensitivity is so useful there very well may have been light sensitive spots on some ur-invertebrate. I don’t recall all the early branching
Actually, recent evidence suggests that the eye did not evolve multiple independent times, but rather that the eye is a rather good example of divergent evolution. There are two major lines of evidence that have supported this change in the ideas.
First, the genes that specify tissue to become an eye are very highly conserved (meaning that they are found in most animals with few changes to the sequence). In particular, there is a gene called Pax6/eyeless that helps trigger the initial formation of the eye during development, that is similar enough that the gene in frogs can replace the gene in flies and function perfectly fine (and vice versa). This suggests that the developmental pathway to make an eye was established before the split between vertebrates and invertebrates, and then since the split vertebrates and invertebrates use those genes to make very different structures, but that share a common heritage.
The second interesting line of evidence comes from the observation that invertebrates have a very different structure to their photoreceptors from vertebrates and use a photoreceptive pigment that is different from all of the vertebrate photopigments. (Incidentally, this was some of the evidence originally cited in favor of independent evolution of the eyes in vertebrates and inverts) Recently, however, it has been found that the output cells of the vertebrate retina (called retinal ganglion cells) are related to the invertebrate photoreceptors in structure and gene expression. Of particular interest, although they were not thought to be photosensitive, these cells have photoreceptive pigments that are much more closely related to invertebrate photopigments than any of the vertebrate photopigments. It turns out that this photopigment in vertebrates is likely playing an important role in sensing light and dark for setting night/day body rhythms.
Thus one of the leading hypotheses now is that both vertebrate and invertebrate eyes are derived from simple eyes present in a common ancestor and have diverged since then. In particular, it is though that this common ancestor likely had both vertebrate-like and invertebrate-like photoreceptors, and in the invertebrate lineage the vertebrate-like photoreceptors were lost while in the vertebrate lineage the invert-photoreceptors became the retinal ganglion cells. Notably, a marine worm has now been described that has both invertebrate and vertebrate type photoreceptors.
Thus, while the eye used to be cited as an excellent case for convergent evolution, it is now likely that it is an even better case for divergent evolution.
Sorry if that was too technical, but since it reflects both current progress in evolution and shows further evolutionary linkage between all of God’s creatures including humans, I thought it worth bringing it forth.
JRM
P.S. Just for the record, I am both an active biologist and an active Catholic.
 
Jason << JRM P.S. Just for the record, I am both an active biologist and an active Catholic. >>

Finally, then we’ll let you deal with the many folks on this board who think Darwin is Satan, evolution is eugenics and racism, natural selection is completely random chance, a theory “is not a fact” since it is not “proved” yet, and the 2nd Law of Thermo absolutely destroys evolutionary biology. Oh, and that the earth might be Hollow and that it is “Turtles all the way down.” Maybe we’ll save those latter threads for the Catholic astronomers among us. :rolleyes:

Phil P
 
Hi Jason. Very interesting post. Can you link to any online resources that discuss this? I’d like to add them to my reference list. Any journal article cites would also be welcomed. Your discussion is a good example of how scientific ideas evolve in the face of new evidence.
 
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PhilVaz:
Jason << JRM P.S. Just for the record, I am both an active biologist and an active Catholic. >>

Finally, then we’ll let you deal with the many folks on this board who think Darwin is Satan, evolution is eugenics and racism, natural selection is completely random chance, a theory “is not a fact” since it is not “proved” yet, and the 2nd Law of Thermo absolutely destroys evolutionary biology. Oh, and that the earth might be Hollow and that it is “Turtles all the way down.” Maybe we’ll save those latter threads for the Catholic astronomers among us. :rolleyes:

Phil P
any scientist agrees evolution theory is proved? why they’re still studying fossil to try to cover the gap?
 
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abcdefg:
any scientist agrees evolution theory is proved? why they’re still studying fossil to try to cover the gap?
Right. And if the theory of relativity were “proved” we’d stop studying physics.
 
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Della:
Thank you, Petra. This is what I was trying to express in shortened form. I too believe this as did people like J. R. R. Tolkien. He expressed this idea quite eloquently in The Silmarillion and his other writings. He used music as the force that drives the universe created by the “secret fire” of God. Quite beautiful and enriching, yes?
I didn’t realize that The Silmarillion had such interesting symbolism, although I shouldn’t be surprised. His other works are amazing in that regard. I’ll have to read it. Thanks!
 
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zian:
Hi Jason. Very interesting post. Can you link to any online resources that discuss this? I’d like to add them to my reference list. Any journal article cites would also be welcomed. Your discussion is a good example of how scientific ideas evolve in the face of new evidence.
Don’t know whether Jason will return.

The seminal paper was written by Quiring, Walldorf et al in 1994:
Quiring et al, *Homology of the eyeless gene of Drosophila to the Small eye gene in mice and Aniridia in humans, *Science 265, 785

Go here for the abstract:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?holding=npg&cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7914031&dopt=Abstract

Sonic hedgehog is also conserved in the patterning of vertebrate and invertebrate eyes:
Neumann and Nuesselin-Volhard, *Patterning of the Zebrafish Retina by a Wave of Sonic Hedgehog Activity, *Science 289, 2137

Here’s a good article on the finding that Pax6 homologues regulate eye development across the metazoans:
jyi.org/volumes/volume1/issue1/articles/friedman.html

As for the finding that there were two forms of photoreceptor and that deuterstomes and protostomes each developed a different one in their eyes, it is based on work with a primitive marine worm called Platynereis dumerilii, in this paper:
Arendt et al, *Ciliary Photoreceptors with a vertebrate-type opsin in an invertebrate brain, *Science 306, 869 (2004). Here is the abstract:
’ For vision, insect and vertebrate eyes use rhabdomeric and ciliary photoreceptor cells, respectively. These cells show distinct architecture and transduce the light signal by different phototransductory cascades. In the marine rag-worm Platynereis, we find both cell types: rhabdomeric photoreceptor cells in the eyes and ciliary photoreceptor cells in the brain. The latter use a photopigment closely related to vertebrate rod and cone opsins. Comparative analysis indicates that both types of photoreceptors, with distinct opsins, coexisted in Urbilateria, the last common ancestor of insects and vertebrates, and sheds new light on vertebrate eye evolution.’
sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/306/5697/869

Here is a pre-publication in Trends in Ecology and Evolution:
lifesci.ucsb.edu/eemb/labs/oakley/pubs/Plachetzki05.pdf
Platchetzki et al, ‘New Insights into the Evolutionary History of Photoreceptor Cells’, pre-published on-line.

Here is a popular article on the same subject:
pharyngula.org/index/weblog/rhabdomeric_and_ciliary_eyes/

And another, that’s rather too popular and crowing for my taste:
innovations-report.com/html/reports/life_sciences/report-35418.html

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Hi Petra,

I hope you had a wonderful Christmas. 🙂 I’d like to gently ease into a few of your comments if you don’t mind. You’re comments reflect that of a proponant of Intelligent Design hypothesis.

Petra, “My view is similar…I think that God coded creation to develop along predetermined boundaries, but the process was not completely deterministic. There was some wiggle room allowed through some degree of random chance, but it was not purely random, as atheists suggest. I also believe that God has been personally and intimately involved in the process, while not interfering with this randomness.”

There haven’t been any scientists state evolution was random. Where did you get that information from or who stated that? (By the way, I’m not an atheist. I’m a christian Catholic opposed to Intelligent Design hypothesis.) God coded? How did God code? You seem to be stating God is involved with the process of randomness but doesn’t interfere. How is that possible? Where does free will come into play with this? Our free will as human beings.

Petra, “Similarly, God created laws of physics that drastically limited the kind of universe that could result and stacked the deck in favor of life. I am of the view that all of the necessary genetic information for every species was implanted in the first 1-celled organism and that traits became expressed through simulus from environment plus some degree of randomness. The scientific community now believes that changes in species were not gradual as previously thought, but were relatively punctuated. Sudden changes in environment would be a catalyst for these changes. If all the information was already there, a narrow range of randomness could “find its way” to improved physical features that are better suited to the new environment.”

Again you use the word ‘randomness’. I need to first find out the answer I have previously asked you before dealing with your above mentioned quote. Are you saying God is human because God was the one who created the laws of physics? I don’t think the laws of physics were ‘poof’ instantly created. Do you know anything about physics except for the fact that you believe ‘God created the laws of physics’. What laws are those?

Petra, "Although we can’t scientifically test for God’s involvement in creation, analogous to actual graces in the lives of people, there is definitely room for Him to work and “nudge” without overriding physical laws, nor the limited randomness that He allows. As a layperson, I’ve been reading a bit about quantum mechanics (John Polkinghorne), and that may well be the realm of God’s intimate nudgings upon creation.

If I understand you correctly, you’re now stating God, the creator of physic laws, didn’t need to scientifically test or research or collect data because God can “nudge” physic laws without overriding them. I guess SCIENCE was never needed but we know it exists. Why is that if God created physic laws. I’m fairly familiar with quantum mechanics. How do you figure God used quantum mechanics in creation nudging. When did God do it? Please tell me where it explains God made science. It isn’t in the bible or any scientific book.

Petra, “I don’t know whether it was this thread or another, but someone mentioned that he sees beauty in evolution (theistic evolution, that is). I completely agree. The more I learn, the more intimate I see that this process has been. It has been a work of love, and like His love for us, He has allowed creation to express itself it a way that is not purely deterministic.”

Would you mind telling me what gentleman stated that he believed in a theistic evolution? Was it a scientist? Seeing the beauty in evolution doesn’t imply a person agrees with a theistic evolution. Theistic Evolution is one of three major origin-of-life worldviews, the other two being Atheistic Evolution (also commonly known as Darwinian Evolution) and Special Creation. Which of one are you referring to?

I won’t return till after the New Year. Wishing everyone the berry berry best! A toast to the beginning of God cheering us onward! .😃
 
vern humphrey:
Right. And if the theory of relativity were “proved” we’d stop studying physics.
Church doesn’t oppose the practical implications of theory of relativity. which can be used to calculate some harmless things. But which direction, do you expect, ET will guide your activities to? I guess it’s either Social Darwinism or totally useless.
 
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abcdefg:
Church doesn’t oppose the practical implications of theory of relativity. which can be used to calculate some harmless things.
Yeah, like nuclear weapons.
But which direction, do you expect, ET will guide your activities to? I guess it’s either Social Darwinism or totally useless.
An understanding of life on earth. You may be drawn to social darwinism but that doesn’t lock the rest of us into that conclusion.

Peace

Tim
 
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abcdefg:
But which direction, do you expect, ET will guide your activities to? I guess it’s either Social Darwinism or totally useless.
Well, evolutionary theory is leading my research to try to understand development and regeneration of the retina. By using hypotheses based on common descent, I and other researchers have found a group of genes that control development of the fish retina and are working on testing whether it is part of what allows fish to regenerate their retinas following damage. Most mammals cannot regenerate their retinas, but they do have the genes that are being studied in fish and frogs and other species that do regenerate. Therefore, researchers are hopeful that the work being done now to understand development and regeneration of the eye in fish and frogs will lead to pharmacological or other ways of trying to trigger regeneration of the retina in mammals. If you consider the possibility of regenerating sensory organs (or for that matter any of the other basic research being done which lead to the various drugs and cures that physicians now provide) useless, well, I guess that’s your opinion. But you should know that most of the biomedical research being done uses aspects of evolutionary theory every day.
Just as one example of researchers getting closer to a treatment, a gene that was originally described in fruit flies controlling sensory organ development (called atonal) can be injected into deafened guinea pigs (they used the mammalian version of the gene called either Math1 or Atoh1) and purportedly this leads to regeneration of the lost sensory cells in the ear and limited recovery in hearing (article here).

Thanks to Alec for providing those references to my last comment. There are many more (one of the big names you can search for is WJ Gehring), but those are an excellent start!

JRM
 
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wildleafblower:
Atheistic Evolution (also commonly known as Darwinian Evolution)
I just have to object to this characterization.
First of all, from a scientific perspective there is no difference between theistic and atheistic evolution. Evolution is evolution. The researchers may have different opinions about the existence of God, but science, by its nature, has nothing to say about God. As far as the research goes, all evolution is strictly agnostic (that is does not prove or disprove the existence of God).
Second, Darwinian evolution is about 150 years old. Science has changed a lot since then and while many of Darwin’s core principles still stand, evolution today is a complex synthesis of genetics, ecology, molecular biology, population biology, developmental biology, biostatistics, etc.
Finally, your characterization of theistic evolution as separate from Darwin is mistaken. All of the scientists I know who believe in theistic evolution also believe in the general ideas of Darwin’s proposal of natural selection (or more appropriately, as I noted above, the modern synthesis of evolution based on Darwin’s ideas).
JRM
 
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Orogeny:
Yeah, like nuclear weapons.
An understanding of life on earth. You may be drawn to social darwinism but that doesn’t lock the rest of us into that conclusion.

Peace

Tim
Do you like newtonian mechanics? where do all the ak47s and m16s come from. my point is newtonian mechanics and theory of relativity doesn’t have theological consequences atm.

If you are not guided into social Darwinism, then you’re not applying ET to anything. I’m not wrong in my previous words
 
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abcdefg:


If you are not guided into social Darwinism, then you’re not applying ET to anything.

I’m curious how to go from a theory which describes what did, does, and will happen to a theory which decides which courses of action one ought to take.
 
If you by no means don’t want to let ET guide your action, why learn it? Just want to show you know something God didn’t reveal to you? ET described what will happen? inferiors are to be extincted.
 
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EnterTheBowser:
I’m curious how to go from a theory which describes what did, does, and will happen to a theory which decides which courses of action one ought to take.
I kinda wondered that myself.

I think the post in question was French for "I know evolution doesn’t have any theological implications, but I don’t like you and I have to have something to accuse you of."http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
 
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AquinasXVI:
The deep rooted problem is that the THEORY of evolution assumes that existence is a given.

Should I decide to splatter random acrylic paint on canvas and do that for several million years, the probability of splattering The Mona Lisa would have to be nil.
  1. evolution does not address the origins of the universe, that is cosmology
  2. evolution does not address the origins of life, that is abiogenisis
  3. Reality is a given, we are here, so its a good starting point.
  4. You misunderstand the theory of evolution, the facts, the deterministic laws ruling chemistry and physics at a macrolevel, the function of natural selection, the accumulation of mutations and by including the monalisa, the process of finding functional protiens in a given shape space.
 
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abcdefg:
Do you like newtonian mechanics? where do all the ak47s and m16s come from. my point is newtonian mechanics and theory of relativity doesn’t have theological consequences atm.
Weapons are a much larger threat to mankind that the theory of evolution is.
If you are not guided into social Darwinism, then you’re not applying ET to anything. I’m not wrong in my previous words
If you accept social darwinism, shame on you. The biological theory of evolution has NOTHING to do with social darwinism.

Peace

Tim
 
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Orogeny:
Weapons are a much larger threat to mankind that the theory of evolution is.
If you accept social darwinism, shame on you. The biological theory of evolution has NOTHING to do with social darwinism.
Fear, pride and ignorance are at the core of the refusal to accept the FACT of evolution, and the THEORY of evolution.

Fear. If evolution is true then that might mean just physical processes brought me in to existance. It would mean there is no god (in their minds).

Pride. “I am special! I am important! I am I am I am”.

Ignorance. Evolution says chance brought me into existance! Evolution says a lizard turned into a chicken by magic. Mutations cannot add new information to a genome. There are no transitional fossils.
 
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