If i forgive you, must i make amends with you

[spockrates]

That is why I’m thinking there are different degrees of forgiveness. One can forgive unconditionally by not holding a grudge and not taking revenge, but one must forgive conditionally by waiting for a person to repent before he pardons her from the consequences of her sins. Forgive me for saying so, but don’t you agree that there are two kinds of forgiveness? Aren’t there both unconditional and conditional forgivenesses?

 

[spockrates]

And forgive me again for taking the risk of saying too much, but perhaps this parable will help shed some light in these murky depths of the mystery of forgiving:

A man is madly in love with a woman with whom he is engaged to marry. His heart is crushed when he discovers that she is having a sexual affair with a good friend of his. He tells her he is calling off the wedding. She cries and begs him to reconsider, but he says he will never be able to trust her again. She then pleads with him not to tell her parents, for they are devout Catholics, and hearing that she is no longer a virgin will kill them. He tells her that he is going to tell her parents, for they will ask him why he is breaking off the engagement.

“We cannot be engaged because I cannot trust you,” he says. “And you must face the consequences for your sin. But I still forgive you.”

“Forgive me?” she angrily replies. “You end our relationship, and try to end my relationship with my parents, too! Tell me, Spock, just how have you forgiven me? Because I just don’t see it, you hypocrite!”

How should Spock answer the girl, James? How should he explain that he really has forgiven her?

 

[JRKH]

Forgive me for seeing your wrench and raising you a torque driver! But the reason I’m thinking that there are conditions for some levels of forgiveness is not because that is my opinion. It’s the opinion of Christ:

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

Isn’t our Lord saying that repentance is a condition the offender must meet before we forgive her?



I mean, notice what Jesus does NOT say:

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he [does not repent], forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I [do not] repent,’ forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3-4)

I suppose a certain amount of semantics can get involved in these things.

The Lord indeed says that if your brother repents you should forgive him.
However
Do you think that the Lord would rebuke you if you forgave your brother even without his being repentant?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

That is why I’m thinking there are different degrees of forgiveness. One can forgive unconditionally by not holding a grudge and not taking revenge, but one must forgive conditionally by waiting for a person to repent before he pardons her from the consequences of her sins. Forgive me for saying so, but don’t you agree that there are two kinds of forgiveness? Aren’t there both unconditional and conditional forgivenesses?

I think you make an interesting distinction here.
We need to forgive unconditionally in order to be “perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect”. However extending that forgiveness to the other, in the sense of restoring a relationship, and pardoning them from the consequences of their sin, must wait on their repentance.
The difference, as I mentioned in my previous post, can be one of semantics and of specific definitions of forgiveness.
When I speak of forgiveness, I mainly think in tersm of what I must do within my own heart to restore/preserve my relationship with God. Harboring anger/resentment/vengance etc in my heart only injures me. It does nothing to either punish or help my neighbor. So I don’t think of forgiveness as either conditional or unconditional.
I do recognize though where you are coming from as regards to the different components of the process of forgiveness between two people.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

And forgive me again for taking the risk of saying too much, but perhaps this parable will help shed some light in these murky depths of the mystery of forgiving:

A man is madly in love with a woman with whom he is engaged to marry. His heart is crushed when he discovers that she is having a sexual affair with a good friend of his. He tells her he is calling off the wedding. She cries and begs him to reconsider, but he says he will never be able to trust her again. She then pleads with him not to tell her parents, for they are devout Catholics, and hearing that she is no longer a virgin will kill them. He tells her that he is going to tell her parents, for they will ask him why he is breaking off the engagement.

“We cannot be engaged because I cannot trust you,” he says. “And you must face the consequences for your sin. But I still forgive you.”

“Forgive me?” she angrily replies. “You end our relationship, and try to end my relationship with my parents, too! Tell me, Spock, just how have you forgiven me? Because I just don’t see it, you hypocrite!”

How should Spock answer the girl, James? How should he explain that he really has forgiven her?

1. I’m not sure that he should tell her parents the specific reason for the break-up.
2. He probably cannot explain to her that he has forgiven her at this time.
   First of all - being this close to the event, his forgiveness is likely not complete, which is why he would choose to tell her parents the specific reason for the break-up.
   Second of all - She is not in any frame of mind to accept any explanation he would offer.

The only option in this case would be to end the engagement - for personal reasons - and go on from there. After a time, his forgiveness will likely become complete and he will be glad he did not hurt her further. She may come to realize what she did was horribly wrong and get to confession in order to restore her relationship with God. She may then seek forgiveness of him (if they still have contact). But whether tehy are in contact or not, God, who sees all things, knows that he has forgiven her and that she has repented.
All is well.

If on the other hand he DOES proceed to tell her parents of her sin, he may well find himself in a postion of later having to seek forgivenees from her for acting in a vengeful manner (even though he didn’t think it was at the time.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

I suppose a certain amount of semantics can get involved in these things.

The Lord indeed says that if your brother repents you should forgive him.
However
Do you think that the Lord would rebuke you if you forgave your brother even without his being repentant?

Peace
James

Good question, that! I’d answer, “Yes, He would rebuke me, if I deserved it!”



My namesake once simply said,

I endeavour to be accurate.

–Spock

And I think it simply good for me to do the same. You see, James, I’m trying to think logically, as my namesake. I’m trying to think this thing through and accurately determine the meaning of Jesus’ command to forgive. One way to make it easier to understand is by way of inference. Please consider our SCUBA diving metaphor and see what inference logic helps us draw about forgiveness:

If I were to were to say before our dive beneath the sea,

(a1) “If you see a shark when we are down there, then warn me.”

it would be illogical for you to conclude that I was telling you that

(b1) if you don’t see a shark, then you should warn me.

And if I were to say before we dove,

(a2) “If your tanks start to run out of oxygen, then you make your assent to the surface before your air supply gets to low.”

it would be irrational for you to surmise that I meant that

(b2) if your tanks are not running out of oxygen, then you must make your assent.

And if I were to say before the dive,

(a3) “If you make your assent, then go slowly so you won’t get the bends.”

it would be unreasonable to assume that I was saying that

(b3) if you don’t make your assent, then you should go slowly so you won’t get the bends.

So the inference I derive is that when Christ says,

(a4) “If your brother repents, forgive him.”

it would be illogical to assert that what He meant was that He meant

(b4) if your brother refuses to repent, then you are required to forgive him.

Logic tells me that since Christ was making a conditional statement (e.g., if … then …) about forgiveness, He must be saying that forgiveness (at least in some circumstances) is conditional. The logical inference is that if a person does not meet a condition to be forgiven (in this case repentance) then the person should not be forgiven (as least in some senses or to some degree).

 

[spockrates]

I think you make an interesting distinction here.
We need to forgive unconditionally in order to be “perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect”. However extending that forgiveness to the other, in the sense of restoring a relationship, and pardoning them from the consequences of their sin, must wait on their repentance.
The difference, as I mentioned in my previous post, can be one of semantics and of specific definitions of forgiveness.
When I speak of forgiveness, I mainly think in tersm of what I must do within my own heart to restore/preserve my relationship with God. Harboring anger/resentment/vengance etc in my heart only injures me. It does nothing to either punish or help my neighbor. So I don’t think of forgiveness as either conditional or unconditional.
I do recognize though where you are coming from as regards to the different components of the process of forgiveness between two people.

Peace
James

Perhaps you are correct. Let’s consider what you are saying to be sure, and begin by comparing what you say to the definitions of forgiveness we are considering:

Forgive is thus defined:

1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).
3. to grant pardon to (a person).
4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one’s enemies.

When Christ says this,

“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”

(Luke 17:3)

He appears to me to be saying that repentance is a condition one must meet to be forgiven to some degree or in some way. My guess is that repentance is a condition that the person must meet to be forgiven in the sense of definitions (1) or (2) or (3).

Now, our Forgiver also said this:

“But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”

(Matthew 6:15)

And I’m thinking that in this instance He is speaking of forgiving in the sense of definition (4). One can always and unconditionally forgive in the way of (4) but (1), (2) and (3) might require repentance, or ignorance of sin, or some other condition be met by the one forgiven.

What are you thinking?

 

[spockrates]

1. I’m not sure that he should tell her parents the specific reason for the break-up.
2. He probably cannot explain to her that he has forgiven her at this time.
   First of all - being this close to the event, his forgiveness is likely not complete, which is why he would choose to tell her parents the specific reason for the break-up.
   Second of all - She is not in any frame of mind to accept any explanation he would offer.

The only option in this case would be to end the engagement - for personal reasons - and go on from there. After a time, his forgiveness will likely become complete and he will be glad he did not hurt her further. She may come to realize what she did was horribly wrong and get to confession in order to restore her relationship with God. She may then seek forgiveness of him (if they still have contact). But whether tehy are in contact or not, God, who sees all things, knows that he has forgiven her and that she has repented.
All is well.

If on the other hand he DOES proceed to tell her parents of her sin, he may well find himself in a postion of later having to seek forgivenees from her for acting in a vengeful manner (even though he didn’t think it was at the time.

Peace
James

Yes, I suppose it is neither black nor white but an extremely gray area, this forgiveness! Forgive me for changing the parable, but this might help me better understand:

Let’s say the woman to whom the man is engaged has a sexual affair, but instead of begging for forgiveness, she could not care less whether Spock forgives her. She tells him she is going to continue to have sex with the man whether Spock likes it or not!



He decides that he must forgive her, or God won’t forgive him. So he tells her that he is going to:

1. 
   *]grant remission of her offense and absolve her of having the sexual affair, and
   *]give up all claim on account of her sexual affair, and remit her obligation to stop having the sexual affair, and
   *]grant a complete pardon to her for having the sexual affair, and a future pardon for her continuing to have the sexual affair, and
   *]cease to feel resentment against her for having the sexual affair, and remain engaged to marry her.
   
   She laughs at him, says he is pathetic, and calls him a wimp and an idiot!
   
   
   
   Do you think she is wrong, James? Do you think Spock is not a foolish weenie, but is instead a wise and courageous man for forgiving her so completely?
   
   

 

[JRKH]

Yes, I suppose it is neither black nor white but an extremely gray area, this forgiveness! Forgive me for changing the parable, but this might help me better understand:

Let’s say the woman to whom the man is engaged has a sexual affair, but instead of begging for forgiveness, she could not care less whether Spock forgives her. She tells him she is going to continue to have sex with the man whether Spock likes it or not!



He decides that he must forgive her, or God won’t forgive him. So he tells her that he is going to:

1. 
   *]grant remission of her offense and absolve her of having the sexual affair, and
   *]give up all claim on account of her sexual affair, and remit her obligation to stop having the sexual affair, and
   *]grant a complete pardon to her for having the sexual affair, and
   *]cease to feel resentment against her for having the sexual affair, and a future pardon for her continuing to have the sexual affair, and remain engaged to marry her.
   
   She laughs at him and calls him a wimp and an idiotic fool.
   
   Do you think she is wrong, James? Do you think Spock is not a foolish wimp, but a wise and courageous man?
   
   

1. 
   Spock is indeed a wise and courageous man for it take much more courage to forgive than to “give in” to hate. It takes a wise man to know that forgiving is much healthier than hate. Hate causes injury, not only to the one hated, but also to the one who hates.
   
   What is not addressed here is whether the relationship is to be restored. Spock can forgive her in every sense above and then grant her desire to be with this other man. Thus the relationship between Spock and the woman is ended, not because Spock hates, or refuses to forgive, but because the woman refuses to do what is necessary to restore the relationship. That is she refuses to repent and seek forgiveness from Spock.
   
   So then - To relate this to God’s Love for us, It is not His love that fails, but ours. It is not His forgivenss that fails us, but our repentance that fails Him. It is not God who chooses to end the relationship, but we who do so.
   
   Peace
   James

 

[spockrates]

Spock is indeed a wise and courageous man for it take much more courage to forgive than to “give in” to hate. It takes a wise man to know that forgiving is much healthier than hate. Hate causes injury, not only to the one hated, but also to the one who hates.

What is not addressed here is whether the relationship is to be restored. Spock can forgive her in every sense above and then grant her desire to be with this other man. Thus the relationship between Spock and the woman is ended, not because Spock hates, or refuses to forgive, but because the woman refuses to do what is necessary to restore the relationship. That is she refuses to repent and seek forgiveness from Spock.

So then - To relate this to God’s Love for us, It is not His love that fails, but ours. It is not His forgivenss that fails us, but our repentance that fails Him. It is not God who chooses to end the relationship, but we who do so.

Peace
James

Then I believe you are quite right that this is all a mater of semantics, but perhaps not the kind you think.

**se⋅man⋅tics [si-man-tiks] **

–noun (used with a singular verb)

1. Linguistics. a. the study of meaning.
   b. the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form.
2. Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote.
3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let’s not argue about semantics.
4. general semantics.

I’m thinking that our current disagreement is a matter of (3). And the paradoxes of forgiving without befriending and pardoning without restoring a relationship are due completely to semantics. And this is no trivial matter if we want to know what it means to forgive, as Socrates said to his friend:

If a person does not attend to the meaning of terms as they are commonly used in argument, he may be involved even in greater paradoxes than these.

(Theaetetus, 165)

But I think we are making progress, James. You and I agree that complete forgiveness involves not only ceasing to feel resentment and not seeking revenge, but also absolving, acquitting and pardoning a person for her sinful offense.



To help understand the meaning of the word forgiveness, the Thesaurus of Dictionary.com might help by offering these synonyms for the word forgive:

Main Entry: forgive
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: stop blame and grant pardon
Synonyms:
absolve, accept apology, acquit, allow for, amnesty, bear no malice, bear with, bury the hatchet, clear, commute, condone, dismiss from mind, efface, exculpate, excuse, exempt, exonerate, extenuate, forget, kiss and make up, laugh off, let bygones be bygones, let it go, let off easy, let off, let pass, let up on, make allowance, overlook, palliate, pocket, purge, release, relent, remit, reprieve, respite, spring, think no more of, turn other cheek, wink at, wipe slate clean

So to resolve our disagreement, I think that the semantics (or meaning of words) to which we should attend is to agree on what the words such as absolve, acquit and pardon mean. Don’t you think?

 

[spockrates]

**ac⋅quit [uh-kwit] **
–verb (used with object), -quit⋅ted, -quit⋅ting.

1. to relieve from a charge of fault or crime; declare not guilty: They acquitted him of the crime. The jury acquitted her, but I still think she’s guilty.
2. to release or discharge (a person) from an obligation.
3. to settle or satisfy (a debt, obligation, claim, etc.).
4. to bear or conduct (oneself); behave: He acquitted himself well in battle.
5. to free or clear (oneself): He acquitted himself of suspicion

Please let me ask you this, James: In the parable of the man engaged to the woman who refuses to repent of her promiscuity, which definition of acquit applies to the way he should forgive her?

 

[JRKH]

Spock,
I had another thought this morning and wished to place it before you before readnig your latest post above.
Jesus says this:
“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.”
(Luke 17:3-4)

You then proposed the scenerio of the engaged women who commits adultery against her betrothed, and are asking under what conditions she should be forgiven.

You then proposed that this woman does not repent as you say and accuses her former fiance of being a wimp.

Now please consider this.

Suppose after this exchange, these two go their seperate ways. He moves to NYC and she, with her new lover, moves to LA. They lose all track of each other. Four years later, this girls lover tosses her over for another and she realizes what a horrible thing she did to her True Love, the one who forgave her. Her sorrow and her repentance is complete, but she has no way of getting int touch with him to tell him. In fact she is so achamed of herself that, if she saw him walking down the street, she would avoid him since she feels she is not worthy of him.

Now - Christ says that if our brother (or in this case sister) repent we are to forgive them. His “sister” has repented, but has not told him. Does that mean she is not forgiven by him?

This is what I mean by forgiveness. He has forgiven her, regardless of her acceptance of later actions. Her later repentance, once they have lost touch, does nothing to add to his forgiveness of her, nor does it add to her repentance. The only thing that could be added would be for her to seek him out and confess thus restoring the relationship which, of course, is what God wishes us to do with Him.

What think you in this case?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

**ac⋅quit [uh-kwit] **
–verb (used with object), -quit⋅ted, -quit⋅ting.

1. to relieve from a charge of fault or crime; declare not guilty: They acquitted him of the crime. The jury acquitted her, but I still think she’s guilty.
2. to release or discharge (a person) from an obligation.
3. to settle or satisfy (a debt, obligation, claim, etc.).
4. to bear or conduct (oneself); behave: He acquitted himself well in battle.
5. to free or clear (oneself): He acquitted himself of suspicion

Please let me ask you this, James: In the parable of the man engaged to the woman who refuses to repent of her promiscuity, which definition of acquit applies to the way he should forgive her?

I would say that, as it applies to your scenerio - and ONLY in this scenerio - number two would come closest.
Number one does not seem to work for we cannot aquit her of the crime of her sin before God.
Number two, in the sense that you will not hold her to her marriage promise seems most applicable.
Number three would also apply in the sense of settling the matter and holding no “claim” of hurt, or revenge or hate in ones heart.
Number four applies in that Spock, in the pafable, comports himself as a True and Good Christian and thus in…
Number Five, removes any suspicion of sin from himself.

Having said the above, I still think that what we are dscribing here is less a difference in the nuances of the meaning of “forgiveness”, than the difference between freely “forgiving” someone and “restoring” someone.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

I would say that, as it applies to your scenerio - and ONLY in this scenerio - number two would come closest.
Number one does not seem to work for we cannot aquit her of the crime of her sin before God.
Number two, in the sense that you will not hold her to her marriage promise seems most applicable.
Number three would also apply in the sense of settling the matter and holding no “claim” of hurt, or revenge or hate in ones heart.
Number four applies in that Spock, in the pafable, comports himself as a True and Good Christian and thus in…
Number Five, removes any suspicion of sin from himself.

Having said the above, I still think that what we are dscribing here is less a difference in the nuances of the meaning of “forgiveness”, than the difference between freely “forgiving” someone and “restoring” someone.

Peace
James

From what obligation does Spock release her? The obligation to repent of and confess her sin?

 

[JRKH]

From what obligation does Spock release her? The obligation to repent of and confess her sin?

Was I unclear? The obligation to fulfill her promise of marriage.

Peace
James

 

[MargaretLFY]

Dear Spockrates & JRKH,

I have an actual problem of forgiveness that I would you like to consider and mull over if possible.

I have a relative that beat me unconscious as a child at least 5 times. Since I was beaten unconscious I have no memory of those 5 events. I do have a memory of being afraid and still am afraid of this individual. I think I have to tell you this individual is my sibling who confessed these events to me but didn’t apologize. In fact, only told me to confirm to me that I wasn’t crazy to be afraid of her and that she will always hate me. But, she’d like to continue a relationship via the phone.

Before this confession I had stopped all communication with her because of untruths and other unkind things she has done. She proudly says she isn’t religious and holds to never being regretful of her actions.

Although to my knowledge I’m the only person in our family that she declares she hates because I was born.

My question is this. I feel that I forgive her because I pray for her and would like her back with God. I do run into her about once a year because another sister who has her own problems with this sibling has an annual Christmas time party where all our children are invited. I’m the only one with children still under 18 years old. I go I’m pleasant and polite but I also limit my contact. Because I had an illness that the doctor believes was caused by the childhood beatings my children now know of who and what was done to me.

Since she doesn’t repent. Is my forgiveness not complete? I do at times when I hear through family members another wrong she has done I find a repeat of resentfulness to her I then brush it off and pray for her. I continue to limit my contact and don’t any longer discuss her past sins against me and because she has little to no contact with me and mine she isn’t able to sin against us. One doctor suggested my children should never be alone with her.

So for me your discussion has direct bearing on how I might consider my own forgiveness in direct light of someone not even considering to repent.

Margaret isn’t my real name either so this discussion remains anonymous.:tiphat:

 

[JRKH]

Margaret,
First of all allow me to say that you are a remarkably strong person to act in the way you have chosen to act toward your sister.
Also I appreciate your posting because it allows both myself and Spockrates to apply our discussion to a “real life” situation. Up until now we have been talking, primarily, in “ideals” and so forth.
Now to your situation and questions.

In your post above you summarize nicely what happened to you as a child at your sisters hands. You wonder if your “forgiveness” is complete because your sister does not repent.

Be at peace dear Margaret, You have done all that you are able at this time. It appears that you have (in light of the definitions of resentment we are working with):

• Granted pardon (in your heart) for her acts.
• Given up all claims on account of her acts
• Granted pardon to her for her actions against you.
• Ceased (in general) to feel resentment against her

What more could you do?
I know that you say that you still feel resentment toward her when you hear of some new thing she has said or done, but this would be a “new resentment” that you then “brush off” and you continue to pray for her.
In this case I see where Christ tells us to “Pray for our enemies” and “Do good to those who spitefully use you”.

You have maintained at least a sliver of a relationship with her, so she knows that she can communicate repentance to you if she wished to. It appears to me that your forgiveness is as complete as you can make it. I can think of nothing more that you would need to do. The next step is up to The Holy Spirit and your sister.

I do have to wonder why this sister wished to maintain phone contact with someone she “hates”, but even that could indicate a softening. Not being intimately aware of your situation, I cannot know. Perhaps she is just looking for a “soft touch” whom she can feel superior to and hurt at will. Perhaps, (more hopefully) she sees (without knowing it) something “honest” and “good” in you that her soul is yearning for but cannot grasp.
I do know that your sister sounds, at least characterologically. narcissistic as well as sociopathic. It is unlikely that anything you do, either by increasing or decreasing contact, will have any effect on her behavior. Prayer is her only real hope.
Maintaining contact with her would allow you to continue to demonstrate to her both the real strength and the real beauty of our faith. It would allow you to explain to her the reasons why her views, actions and statements to or about others are wrong. It would allow you to let her know that you Love her as a child of God and pray daily for her to come to know God and Christ.
Maintaining contact with her would allow you to send her, “Spiritual bouquets”, so that she is prayed for my the fathers of various religious orders. It would allow you to perhaps give her, as a gift, a subscription to a magazine such as “Guideposts” which contains many real life stories of conversion, struggle and forgiveness.
In other words maintaining contact with her would allow you to witness to her in many subtle ways.

The above are just ideas that came to me this morning. Only you can know if you have the strength to undertake this kind of ministry for your sister. Truthfully I don’t know if I would have the strength to go on if I found myself in your situation.

I hope some of this is helpful to you. I will be intereted in reading Spock’s take on it.

Peace
James

 

[MargaretLFY]

Thank you James.

Being outside the family and situation, I feel assured that leaving it as it is until God clearly tells me otherwise is the best.

I’ll know to change my communication with her when in prayer I’m compelled to do otherwise. When I focus on the good of God’s Love and World I’m always led to do good. The fun of God is that he doesn’t often lead me where I think I should go in all good intention but usually in a better or at least different good path.

In other words, I’ll leave it to God and whatever He decides is fine with me.

Thank you,

Margaret

 

[spockrates]

Was I unclear? The obligation to fulfill her promise of marriage.

Peace
James

Yes, sorry for misunderstanding. (And sorry for taking so long to reply.)

I’ll try to be more careful to not misunderstand. So let me ask if you would say that not every definition of acquit applies, but probably only number (2)?

**ac⋅quit **
[uh-kwit]
–verb (used with object), -quit⋅ted, -quit⋅ting.

1. to relieve from a charge of fault or crime; declare not guilty: They acquitted him of the crime. The jury acquitted her, but I still think she’s guilty.
2. to release or discharge (a person) from an obligation.
3. to settle or satisfy (a debt, obligation, claim, etc.).
4. to bear or conduct (oneself); behave: He acquitted himself well in battle.
5. to free or clear (oneself): He acquitted himself of suspicion

That is, do you think Spockrates should forgive her in the sense of (2) but not necessarily in the sense of (1), (3), (4) and (5)? For example, he would not relieve her from a charge of fault (1) by saying it was OK for her to have a sexual affair with his friend while they were engaged. Would he?

 

[spockrates]

… Since she doesn’t repent. Is my forgiveness not complete? … So for me your discussion has direct bearing on how I might consider my own forgiveness in direct light of someone not even considering to repent. Margaret isn’t my real name either so this discussion remains anonymous.:tiphat:

It’s an honor and an awesome privilege to try to help you, Margaret (BTW, Spockrates isn’t my real name, either!) At this point in the discussion, I’m uncertain as to how you might forgive. However, I’m sure God knows. And that still, small voice did whisper this to me as I read your reply:

If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

(Romans 12:18)

It sounds to me like your relative is making it impossible, in many ways, for you to forgive as completely as you might be able to forgive is she would admit her wrong and make a U-turn in her life. And the peace between you and her might be possible only from a distance. But as far as it is up to you, I think it sounds as though you are doing all that is right and good for you to do. Don’t you?