If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

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Do you know much about grace. I’ve heard grace is somehow a created thing and yet it is part of God so it cannot be created. I’m not an expert on the theology of grace bu the older priest who told me is a very knowledgeable, orthodox and hoy priest. There could be a clue to the answer here. I don’t think this is beyond God to do by any means. I accept it’s hard to understand though. Many theologians support my final conclusion from my research and the church permits me to believe this for now. So I still choose to at this stage. 🙂
It seems best (for me anyway) to describe this way; Grace is not created but more so a state of existence or being offered to us by God, not permanent but conditioned upon our acceptance and depth of devotion to God. It is the life source of our soul that strengthens us in those gifts God gives us in His love and the deeper we are in our relationship and devotion to Him the more grace we are predisposed or capable to receive.

According to the Modern Catholic Dictionary
In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term.
As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence.
The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE.

New Advent Definition;
The definition of actual grace is based on the idea of grace in general, which, in Biblical, classical, and modern language, admits of a fourfold meaning. In the first place, subjectively, grace signifies good will, benevolence; then, objectively, it designates every favour which proceeds from this benevolence and, consequently, every gratuitous gift (donum gratuitum, beneficium). In the former (subjective) sense, the king’s grace grants life to the criminal condemned to death; in the latter (objective) sense the king distributes graces to his lieges. In this connection grace also stands for charm, attractiveness; as when we speak of the three Graces in mythology, or of the grace poured forth on the lips of the bridegroom (Psalm 44:3), because charm calls forth benevolent love in the giver and prompts him to the bestowal of benefactions. As the recipient of graces experiences, on his part, sentiments of gratefulness, and expresses these sentiments in thanks, the word gratiae (plural of gratia) also stands for thanksgiving in the expressions gratias agere and Deo gratias, which have their counterpart in the English, to say grace after meals.
A comparison of these four senses of the word grace reveals a clear relationship of analogy among them, since grace, in its objective signification of “gratuitous gift” or “favour”, occupies a central position around which the other meanings may be logically grouped. For the attractiveness of the recipient as well as the benevolence of the giver is the cause, whereas the expression of thanks which proceeds from the grateful disposition is the effect, of the gratuitous gift of grace. This last-mentioned meaning is, consequently the fundamental one in grace. The characteristic idea of a free gift must be taken in the strict sense and exclude merit in every form, be it in the range of commutative justice as, e.g., in sale and purchase, or in that of distributive justice, as is the case in the so-called remunerations and gratuities. Hence St. Paul says: “If by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace” (Romans 11:6).
newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm
 
It seems best (for me anyway) to describe this way; Grace is not created but more so a state of existence or being offered to us by God, not permanent but conditioned upon our acceptance and depth of devotion to God. It is the life source of our soul that strengthens us in those gifts God gives us in His love and the deeper we are in our relationship and devotion to Him the more grace we are predisposed or capable to receive.

According to the Modern Catholic Dictionary
In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term.
As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence.
The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE.

New Advent Definition;
The definition of actual grace is based on the idea of grace in general, which, in Biblical, classical, and modern language, admits of a fourfold meaning. In the first place, subjectively, grace signifies good will, benevolence; then, objectively, it designates every favour which proceeds from this benevolence and, consequently, every gratuitous gift (donum gratuitum, beneficium). In the former (subjective) sense, the king’s grace grants life to the criminal condemned to death; in the latter (objective) sense the king distributes graces to his lieges. In this connection grace also stands for charm, attractiveness; as when we speak of the three Graces in mythology, or of the grace poured forth on the lips of the bridegroom (Psalm 44:3), because charm calls forth benevolent love in the giver and prompts him to the bestowal of benefactions. As the recipient of graces experiences, on his part, sentiments of gratefulness, and expresses these sentiments in thanks, the word gratiae (plural of gratia) also stands for thanksgiving in the expressions gratias agere and Deo gratias, which have their counterpart in the English, to say grace after meals.
A comparison of these four senses of the word grace reveals a clear relationship of analogy among them, since grace, in its objective signification of “gratuitous gift” or “favour”, occupies a central position around which the other meanings may be logically grouped. For the attractiveness of the recipient as well as the benevolence of the giver is the cause, whereas the expression of thanks which proceeds from the grateful disposition is the effect, of the gratuitous gift of grace. This last-mentioned meaning is, consequently the fundamental one in grace. The characteristic idea of a free gift must be taken in the strict sense and exclude merit in every form, be it in the range of commutative justice as, e.g., in sale and purchase, or in that of distributive justice, as is the case in the so-called remunerations and gratuities. Hence St. Paul says: “If by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace” (Romans 11:6).
newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm
Experience is worth more than a 1000 words.
Everything is Grace. We deserve NOTHING. Everything we have and everything we are is a GIFT 🙂
 
No, because without the Resurrection, our faith would be in vain. Thus, God would be nothing more than picture on a wall or a statue in the corner of one’s house.
Huh… Why are you going to lose something if you believe in God and find out that he isn’t true

P.S. He it true
 
I don’t know much (closer to zilch really:) ) about the theology of grace. I think grace is an aspect of God and is closely tied with His love. But I think I am getting your drift so to speak.
Dear friend, We shall know soon anyway. God bless:)
 
It seems best (for me anyway) to describe this way; Grace is not created but more so a state of existence or being offered to us by God, not permanent but conditioned upon our acceptance and depth of devotion to God. It is the life source of our soul that strengthens us in those gifts God gives us in His love and the deeper we are in our relationship and devotion to Him the more grace we are predisposed or capable to receive.

According to the Modern Catholic Dictionary
In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition. Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim. Where on occasion the Scriptures speak of grace as pleasing charm or thanks for favors received, this is a derived and not primary use of the term.
As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, it refers to something more than the gifts of nature, such as creation or the blessings of bodily health. Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation. The gifts of grace are essentially supernatural. They surpass the being, powers, and claims of created nature, namely sanctifying grace, the infused virtues, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and actual grace. They are the indispensable means necessary to reach the beatific vision. In a secondary sense, grace also includes such blessings as the miraculous gifts of prophecy or healing, or the preternatural gifts of freedom from concupiscence.
The essence of grace, properly so called, is its gratuity, since no creature has a right to the beatific vision, and its finality or purpose is to lead one to eternal life. (Etym. Latin gratia, favor; a gift freely given.) See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE.

New Advent Definition;
The definition of actual grace is based on the idea of grace in general, which, in Biblical, classical, and modern language, admits of a fourfold meaning. In the first place, subjectively, grace signifies good will, benevolence; then, objectively, it designates every favour which proceeds from this benevolence and, consequently, every gratuitous gift (donum gratuitum, beneficium). In the former (subjective) sense, the king’s grace grants life to the criminal condemned to death; in the latter (objective) sense the king distributes graces to his lieges. In this connection grace also stands for charm, attractiveness; as when we speak of the three Graces in mythology, or of the grace poured forth on the lips of the bridegroom (Psalm 44:3), because charm calls forth benevolent love in the giver and prompts him to the bestowal of benefactions. As the recipient of graces experiences, on his part, sentiments of gratefulness, and expresses these sentiments in thanks, the word gratiae (plural of gratia) also stands for thanksgiving in the expressions gratias agere and Deo gratias, which have their counterpart in the English, to say grace after meals.
A comparison of these four senses of the word grace reveals a clear relationship of analogy among them, since grace, in its objective signification of “gratuitous gift” or “favour”, occupies a central position around which the other meanings may be logically grouped. For the attractiveness of the recipient as well as the benevolence of the giver is the cause, whereas the expression of thanks which proceeds from the grateful disposition is the effect, of the gratuitous gift of grace. This last-mentioned meaning is, consequently the fundamental one in grace. The characteristic idea of a free gift must be taken in the strict sense and exclude merit in every form, be it in the range of commutative justice as, e.g., in sale and purchase, or in that of distributive justice, as is the case in the so-called remunerations and gratuities. Hence St. Paul says: “If by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace” (Romans 11:6).
newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm
Dear Tom
thx for that. it doesn’t explain what grace is insofar as is it a part of God and the like but it was good to read. I learnt a bit about charisms being called graces. Thx for that:)
 
Dear Tom
thx for that. it doesn’t explain what grace is insofar as is it a part of God and the like but it was good to read. I learnt a bit about charisms being called graces. Thx for that:)
Because it is supernatural, it is beyond our limits of understanding but I have heard it described as shares in heaven with the more grace one possesses, the greater his or her share or place in heaven. It is not created but is an extension of God’s will. Perhaps it would be easier to understand grace as being that which God wills for us as individuals expressing His pleasure of our devotion in our relationship with Him.
 
My lucky day… the above posts brings up my second and last Quote… At the Catholic Church in VA Beach, Churches were reacing out to each other regardless on demonintation for fellowship. Father eluded to the Catholic sometimes thoughts that we are the only true Faith and others didn’t count. And I Love this one also… Father said to the Congragation… Not all Catholics are Christians, and Not all Christians are Catholic… Well, I am done.

I do have one more but saving it.
**Hi Vicmic, 👋

Father was wrong! :eek: Him saying that not all Catholics are Christians was correct!👍 Why? Because many people who claim to be Catholics do not "Follow Christ "e.g. that what being a Christian means! However Father was also wrong when he said “Not all Christians are Catholic” because in order to BE a Christian you must follow Christ! Since Only Catholics do that fully, all other’s (Protestants, SDAs, Mormons, other sects, denominations, groups, fellowships whatever, are not following Christ, and there for can’t, be called, or considered Christians except in their own preverted minds! Jesus should deny them as He stated in the Bible many times! It is that true, it is that simple!

Ask your Priest what he think of the above statement. I bet you that he will actually agree with that statement! Why? Because it is what the real Catholic church and its followers know to be true!

God Bless**
 
**Hi Vicmic, 👋

Father was wrong! :eek: Him saying that not all Catholics are Christians was correct!👍 Why? Because many people who claim to be Catholics do not "Follow Christ "e.g. that what being a Christian means! However Father was also wrong when he said “Not all Christians are Catholic” because in order to BE a Christian you must follow Christ! Since Only Catholics do that fully, all other’s (Protestants, SDAs, Mormons, other sects, denominations, groups, fellowships whatever, are not following Christ, and there for can’t, be called, or considered Christians except in their own preverted minds! Jesus should deny them as He stated in the Bible many times! It is that true, it is that simple!

Ask your Priest what he think of the above statement. I bet you that he will actually agree with that statement! Why? Because it is what the real Catholic church and its followers know to be true!

God Bless**
RealCatholic - Sorry, but I completely disagree with you. Once a person has been baptised in the Church, they are officially an adopted child of God. How they live their life does not change that reality. The prodigal son who left his Father and other brother still remained the Father’s son. The prodigal son didn’t live a good life but he still remained a son.

Catholics who do not live according to the teaching of the Church are still by their baptism adopted children of God. Please get over your pharisetical ideas about people who are not living out their baptism nor walking in the way of Christ. They are still your brother and sister in Christ (and I don’t mean that in a general way). Please stop calling them not Catholic or not Christian. Bad Catholics or bad Christians they may be, but still Catholic and Christian none the less because of their baptism in the Church.

The saying by Ghandhi at the end of each of your posts seems appropriate. The way you talk about Catholics or Christians not following Christ as if they were no longer your brother or sister in Christ - appears to me to be an “eye for eye and a tooth for a tooth” mentality. Call them bad Catholics or Christians, but please stop referring to them as NOT Catholic or NOT Christian. You are throwing stones at bad Catholics like the woman caught in the act of adultery. Once a person is BAPTISED in the Church, they DO NOT loose the reality of being one of God’s adopted children.
 
i’ll go out on limb to answer your question, if there is no heaven then i’d say there would be no God. cause where would God live?
 
i’ll go out on limb to answer your question, if there is no heaven then i’d say there would be no God. cause where would God live?
Well to clarify, what I mean is if we are not to end up in heaven or hell. That after this life, that is it, finito.

So the question is if there is no after life for us, that is if all we will ever know is this life, would you still love God.
 
The question is an impossiblity.

If there were no Heaven, God would not be the God we all grew up knowing. I would even have to say there was no God, but that’s another impossible hyputhetical.

Baruch Spinoza and Einstein believed in a God who manifested himself in the visible universe. In fact, God was not distinguishable from the universe which was nothing but the infinite attributes of God. However, there was no afterlife. This world was it for us. God was not a conscious being. He was not free. He had to do all that he did, but he didn’t know what he was doing.

This is a package deal. An unconcious, non-personal God and a world-is-all-there-is scenario are necessary corolaries to the lack of Heaven and after life. You cannot say there is an infinite personal conscious God with freedom of choice but without Heaven.
 
Or to put it more simply…

…if there were no Heaven there would be no God to love.
 
Or…

…if there were no Heaven and hell there would be no justice. But God is justice.

Any attribute of God is his essence.
 
Or to put it more simply…

…if there were no Heaven there would be no God to love.
This thread has reverted to a discussion similar to answering “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin”.

For simplicity sake, try asking yourself the question in a different way by taking the reference to God out of it.

For instance:

If there was no after-life, would you still want to do what is Good and Right? Would you still want to LOVE in all you say and do?

Yes, if there was no after-life, I would still want and hope to LOVE and do what is always Good. Why? Because it is Good and according to LOVE.
 
This thread has reverted to a discussion similar to answering “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin”.

For simplicity sake, try asking yourself the question in a different way by taking the reference to God out of it.

For instance:

If there was no after-life, would you still want to do what is Good and Right? Would you still want to LOVE in all you say and do?

Yes, if there was no after-life, I would still want and hope to LOVE and do what is always Good. Why? Because it is Good and according to LOVE.
I tend to think that eternal life is good and according to love.
 
again i will say if there is no heaven, there is no God to love. is it not what the atheist believe no heaven nor hell therefore no God but then you believe yourself to be a god cause there would be no standard to live set by God only one’s perception of what is right or wrong.
 
again i will say if there is no heaven, there is no God to love. is it not what the atheist believe no heaven nor hell therefore no God but then you believe yourself to be a god cause there would be no standard to live set by God only one’s perception of what is right or wrong.
Finally, somebody that understands.👍

If there was no heaven, God would not love us, since he does not desire us to participate in eternal perfection. Eternal perfection is Gods Love. Gods eternal expression of love is, for humanity, heaven. In fact; perfection would be a meaningless concept in respect of morality if there was no such thing as heaven. Morality therefore would have no meaning since God would not be love. Therefore God has no moral right to demand of me my respect or love.

Gods love necessitates the existence of heaven and moral values. Therefore the first question is unreasonable and meaningless.
 
Or to put it more simply…

…if there were no Heaven there would be no God to love.
That reasoning is flawed as it makes God contingent upon heaven. God is the Alpha and the Omega. Whether heaven is a place or a state of being it proceeds and depends upon God’s existence not the other way around.

God would still be God even if there is no heaven unless you go with the line of thinking that heaven is God.
 
again i will say if there is no heaven, there is no God to love. is it not what the atheist believe no heaven nor hell therefore no God but then you believe yourself to be a god cause there would be no standard to live set by God only one’s perception of what is right or wrong.
This is also flawed reasoning because it makes God’s existence contingent on belief. God was before anything ever was. God has no beginning everything else was created by Him. Even if He should decree that we were not to share eternal life with Him, He would still be God.

But anyway, the point of the question is not so much whether heaven exists or not but whether we would still believe in God even if we were not rewarded with heaven, even if there is no eternal life. If all we will know of life and of God is what we know now, would we still love Him?
 
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