If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[jkiernan56]

**

but I wrote:
Though God can end the existence of Satan and Hell any time, God doesn’t have to be there for it to exist**.

God never is in Hell nor with a child abuser - just so they can go on existing.

You are completely wrong again. Yes, GOD DOES HAVE TO EXIST. In fact, ONLY GOD HAS TO EXIST. Nothing else has to exist. God cannot will Himself to cease to exist.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

[SIGN]I never said anything else
don’t you speak English?[/SIGN]
but if it makes you happy:
ok - I’m wrong and you are right
everything ok now?

 

[jkiernan56]

[SIGN]I never said anything else
don’t you speak English?[/SIGN]
but if it makes you happy:
ok - I’m wrong and you are right
everything ok now?

Hello? You acknowledge that even the Devil has their existence from God? Hmmmmm … Houston … I think the Eagle has landed …

 

[JDaniel]

Peace of Christ to everyone who visits this thread!

A priest once gave this one liner homily (can’t remember now what the readings were) for the faithful to ponder upon.

I have asked the same question of a few friends and got some good and some quite angry reactions. One said the question was stupid.

The question of course is purely hypothetical and every Christian knows there is a heaven.

But hypothetically, if there is no heaven, if this life here on earth is the only life that God is giving us, would you still love God and follow His commands?

Looking forward to some interesting responses.

Personally, at this point in my life, I will tell you that I would look for him to thank him for my life, but, if there’s to be no joining with him, if all there is is as Spock said, just these “few decades of existence”, if there’s to be nothing but endless nothing at the end, the only rules that I might be inclined to follow would be those relating to morality with regard to my fellow men (and women ) and that’s about it.

Other than that, I might also follow the rules of the marketplace so that I might create the best of all possible lives here on earth. Obviously we were put here for some reason, not just to live like a bug and die like a bug.

Too many people have proved that we have souls. Even the deceased founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, had to eventually come to the understanding that there was more than just MEST. As the story goes, he was on his way to giving a lecture on MEST being all there was, when he spotted two people in a deep relationship stare sitting at a sidewalk coffee shop. That’s when he suddenly realized that there were two things there that weren’t MEST. There were two things there that were using MEST; two things that were living in the “houses” that MEST built. He had done many experiments and much research involving MEST and no other MEST examples had ever shown this regarding of one another propensity that only living things possess. And, he was an atheist, although he may have changed towards the very end.

I have a soul. I do not want to wander in the void for eternity. Reincarnation, to me, would be the ultimate joke that a god could play upon a soul. So, I have no faith, so to speak, in reincarnation.

jd

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Good morning out there. Please tell me – what is MEST ?

Actually yes – the question of this thread is more than stupid. And I don’t think, one even could then obey this:
“the only rules one might be inclined to follow would be those relating to morality with regard to my fellow men”

The simple reason is: Christians know or ought to know, that there is a judgment following, and it’s God we are responsible to.

Nonbelievers don’t know this fact, but they can’t be sure nor would they ever really be sure.

This way, both behave – if they have at least some responsibility - in a way that it at least to a certain extend responsible.

If the world would KNOW that “There Is No Heaven” it would end in unspeakable desaster, for everybody would be responsible to himself only, and fight for his own best and liking.

In fact, world isn’t as bad as many of us think, and the only reason for that fact is – it’s created by a loving God, who gave every single human a spark of knowledge of God.
**

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Because it is supernatural, it is beyond our limits of understanding but I have heard it described as shares in heaven with the more grace one possesses, the greater his or her share or place in heaven. It is not created but is an extension of God’s will. Perhaps it would be easier to understand grace as being that which God wills for us as individuals expressing His pleasure of our devotion in our relationship with Him.

Dear Tom
Thanks for the info. I agree that for now these things are much of a mystery to us and understanding will only come when we’re there. Even then our understanding will be limited because we are not infinite.

God bless you friend:thumbsup:

 

[twb1621]

Heaven is “where He is”? I’m not so sure I agree.

Right now as I type these words … God is present … God is present because if God were not present … I would not exist … God is even present with the Devil in Hell … why is this? because the Devil would not even exist if God did not think and will him to exist … All created reality exists only because God is present and is giving existence.

Therefore if IT IS TRUE that Hell exists because God is present and willing all contingent existence, is it really true that “Heaven is where God is”? I don’t think so.

OK, you gotta be technical, in this case we are referring to although God is omnipresent, He manifests Himself in a special manner in the light and grandeur of the firmament. Heaven also is the abode of the angels; for they are constantly with God and see His face. With God in heaven are likewise the souls of the just (2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 5:3, 12).

Oh, and… No, God is not in Hell but that has already been responded to in more detail so I will just agree that He is not in hell.

 

[benedictus2]

There’s no way for us to know for sure either way. But I would tend to believe that heaven, or eternal life, proceeds from the nature of God-that He would not create beings with reason and free will who grasp that existence is good and can’t but desire to continue to possess it and then just wipe them out. I think that would militate against the love and mercy of the Christian God.

Well I am not so sure about that because it seems to state that God will not be loving or merciful if He did not will for us to join Him in eternity. I think however that whether He wills for us to join Him in eternity or not, He is always loving and merciful. Beatific vision does not determine His Love and Mercy.

If we start positing that only by eternal bliss can He manifest His love for us, then we would end up concluding that those who are damned are not loved.

Whether our end is eternal bliss with Him or oblivion, God remains Love. He is all knowing and all wise and oblivion maybe the most loving and wise conclusion to our lives.

That statement of course is outside of Revealed Truth.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**“There’s no way for us to know for sure either way”

Many say so

But no! There are many ways to KNOW for sure; one of them is
to read the bible with your heart
keep the holy words in your heart
bring your heart before Jesus Christ in prayer, confession and Holy Communion

Here after we feel deep in our heart the real presence of Jesus Christ
and once he felt this - we never again will say:
“There’s no way for us to know for sure”
for then we do KNOW and not just believe!**

 

[fhansen]

**“There’s no way for us to know for sure either way”

Many say so

But no! There are many ways to KNOW for sure; one of them is
to read the bible with your heart
keep the holy words in your heart
bring your heart before Jesus Christ in prayer, confession and Holy Communion

Here after we feel deep in our heart the real presence of Jesus Christ
and once he felt this - we never again will say:
“There’s no way for us to know for sure”
for then we do KNOW and not just believe!**

I’ll try to explain this a little better. There is no way to know for sure whether or not it automatically proceeds from the nature of God to have created man with an eternal destiny in mind-that of spending eternity with Him-but I believe it does proceed from His nature.

 

[twb1621]

Well I am not so sure about that because it seems to state that God will not be loving or merciful if He did not will for us to join Him in eternity. I think however that whether He wills for us to join Him in eternity or not, He is always loving and merciful. Beatific vision does not determine His Love and Mercy.

If we start positing that only by eternal bliss can He manifest His love for us, then we would end up concluding that those who are damned are not loved.

Whether our end is eternal bliss with Him or oblivion, God remains Love. He is all knowing and all wise and oblivion maybe the most loving and wise conclusion to our lives.

That statement of course is outside of Revealed Truth.

Wow, Ben… I didn’t think this topic would go this far when you first posted…

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Many say: “There is no way to know for sure whether or not God has created man with an eternal destiny in mind - of spending eternity with Him.”

Well, might be not so clearly by creating, though man carries a spark of knowledge about Gods Being in him, as he origins in God.

Definitive answer to our eternal destiny though, God gave us through Jesus (who is God) who kept repeating that our destination is Gods kingdom; see e.g. Joh 11,40:
“Did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God?”**

 

[benedictus2]

Wow, Ben… I didn’t think this topic would go this far when you first posted…

Me neither

Thank goodness I put it in the appropriate section as there is a lot of philosophical musings here.

I can understand though that it is pretty hard to detach this from Scriptural revelation so the what if can be rather hard to imagine.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**well old chum - as some told you when you first asked - I still think the question is a stupid one

If there was no heaven - which means there’d be no judgement - the world would be nothing but a selfish lot, like a pack of wolfes and worse than that.

Yeah - we KNOW and nonbelievers just don’t know and therefore kind of are careful, for “what if it’s true after all” **

 

[benedictus2]

well old chum - as some told you when you first asked - I still think the question is a stupid one

If there was no heaven - which means there’d be no judgement - the world would be nothing but a selfish lot, like a pack of wolfes and worse than that.

Yeah - we KNOW and nonbelievers just don’t know and therefore kind of are careful, for “what if it’s true after all”

So you are saying that we are not a selfish lot because we all believe in heaven?

But some don’t believe in heaven and yet still love their fellow men.

And if we do what is right only because of fear of judgment and damnation then really we are still the same selfish lot you talk about because the only reason we are doing somethiing good is because of the quid pro quo. You do good, you get heaven.

What about loving God and doing good for the simple reason that as we are now, He is loving us. And the only response to that immense Love He is bestowing on us right now is to love Him back.

 

[fhansen]

So you are saying that we are not a selfish lot because we all believe in heaven?

But some don’t believe in heaven and yet still love their fellow men.

And if we do what is right only because of fear of judgment and damnation then really we are still the same selfish lot you talk about because the only reason we are doing somethiing good is because of the quid pro quo. You do good, you get heaven.

What about loving God and doing good for the simple reason that as we are now, He is loving us. And the only response to that immense Love He is bestowing on us right now is to love Him back.

**The only way we even know the God who is Love is almost exclusively due to the life, death, and resurrection of our Lord. This self-sacrificing act of Love, with its’ merciful gift and proof of eternal life, is what draws or turns man back to God from being lost or separated from Him in the first place-it‘s the essence of our faith. It’s the reason Jesus came-it’s how we know God Loves.

According to the CCC, one aspect of mans death in the garden-his exile from the Source of his life due to original sin- was the loss of trust in God. God reconciles Himself with us, the righteous dying for the unrighteous, to restore a trust that should’ve never been lost to begin with. That trust is restored by the reversal of the death penalty which was the wage of sin. From our perspective I don’t see how this can be separated from the Love of God
.**

 

[Daedelus76]

For my money, gratefulness for the gift of life is a gratefulness towards God/life/love, whether God’s consciously acknowledged in it or not, and I’m more impressed with kind and grateful hearts of persons of any stripe than with “believers” who don’t seem to possess either, which I’ve known quite a few of.

I read a story once about the Ven. Thitch Nhat Hanh having dinner with some Protestant ministers. He said a blessing before he ate, talking about gratitude, and the minister asked him "How can you be grateful if you have nothing to be grateful to? (ie, God). To a Buddhist, though, that logic misses the point, since the goal is not an intellectual understanding.

“It is more blessed to give than to receive” is very true, but it also doesn’t require an external reward in heaven. Doing what is right is its own reward. The idea that doing what is right requires belief in, or even existence of a God or an afterlife is a weakness. Even if life were ultimately purposeless, people can still live purposefully based on the Golden Rule and other things people have discovered are good ways to live over the centuries, based on human experience.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

the only reason we are doing somethiing good is because of the quid pro quo. You do good, you get heaven

**Definitely not so! This way we couldn’t earn heaven, for we’d do something to get paid for. Never and no way!

I love people NOT because I earn heaven for it, but for a very simple other reason.

It’s simply wonderful to be loved by others. And you only can be loved by others, if you love them first!

This you can do only then, when you love God. For when you love God, you automatically live in a inner joy. This inner joy you pass on to others, by being friendly in a true and loving way.

I just had a mail by an American friend about that theme and he wrote:
“We have been seriously repressed by certain of our citizenry. Protestantism has a major player in that regard, always frowning on everything enjoyable. So, as time has passed, we have turned to caution, rather than be our true, happy selves.”

When I was in the USA I noticed a strange rebuff. At first “how nice to meet you” but then turning away. The whole week in a hotel, people hardly spoke to me or each other, as they find every stranger suspicious. Caution instead of love, and disinterest in others. Missing the before mentioned “being friendly in a true and loving way”.

See my signature below.
**

 

[wina]

I’ve never missed this thread. Love it very much

 

[benedictus2]

I read a story once about the Ven. Thitch Nhat Hanh having dinner with some Protestant ministers. He said a blessing before he ate, talking about gratitude, and the minister asked him "How can you be grateful if you have nothing to be grateful to? (ie, God). To a Buddhist, though, that logic misses the point, since the goal is not an intellectual understanding.

“It is more blessed to give than to receive” is very true, but it also doesn’t require an external reward in heaven. Doing what is right is its own reward. The idea that doing what is right requires belief in, or even existence of a God or an afterlife is a weakness. Even if life were ultimately purposeless, people can still live purposefully based on the Golden Rule and other things people have discovered are good ways to live over the centuries, based on human experience.

Doing what is right is it’s own reward but how does one know what is right without a reference to God.

Without God as the final arbiter of what is morally good or evil, what is the yardstick of what morality?

Morality then becomes subjective.

A priest (I can’t remember who) once wrote that without God everything is permissible.

Sin is only sin because God said so.