If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[MindOverMatter]

Well then, what did He create you and shower you with blessing for if not for out of love for you?
The true God created me for eternal heaven. That is why i have a desire to be perfectly happy. Is there something wrong with desiring perfect happiness? Was is not God who gave us this gift?
benedictus2;5041330:
Well I don’t think your definition of heaven is quite Church teaching. God is the Alpha and Omega. He is the source of all beings.
If God is the source of happiness, then God is heaven. Thats the only heaven i want to go to. I don’t know what heaven you’re talking about.

Let me put it this way. Let us say you are God and I am your creature. Heaven would be when I am united to you.

No. We experience heaven, only because there is such a thing as heaven. Heaven is an eternal truth that flows eternally from Gods nature of being. It isn’t some subjective reality that switches on and off. Heaven is not dependent upon our existence. It simply is. Heaven is the greatest good for all creatures. God is the greatest Good.

Where you to decide wave your magic wand and make me disappear, there would be no more heaven (which would be my state of being with you) but YOU would still be there. You are independent of my being with you.

You have a seriously flawed view of heaven.

You are right your conclusions follow from the first cause. But the issue being debated here is NOT

THE FIRST CAUSE.
You have made a nice neat logical argument on a topic which is not in question at all.
If we are talking about God, then we are talking about the first cause.

This is really frustrating.

I’m sorry you feel that way. But i must tell the truth.

This is not my view of things. DO YOU STILL NOT GET IT?** This is a what if**

. Maaan why is that so hard to understand.

What if there were no heaven? = there would be no God.
And true love is love that does not seek a reward!
True. However, love is meaningless if God is not heaven. In moral truth, you ought to love perfection. Perfection is heaven.

benedictus2:
But it is you who just do not get it. And I cannot understand why you don’t get it when you are Catholic and we recite that often enough in the act of contrition:
that we are sorry not so much because we fear hell, NOT SO MUCH BECAUSE WE DREAD THE LOSS OF HEAVEN, BUT BECAUSE WE HAVE OFFENDED GOD WHO IS ALL GOOD AND DESERVING OF OUR LOVE.”
A perfect creature would surely agree. We ought to love God, but thats because of what he is. God is love, and there are certain eternal truths that accompany the nature that is love; one of which is eternal heaven. But we are not perfect creatures. We love God because he fulfills us. It is God whom perfects us. We perfectly love only because God enables us to through his eternal grace. We do not love because we are good. A humble person would know this. A humble and philosophical person would not say that they would love God if there were no heaven. We are sinners whom ought to love God. God is Heaven.

That statement alone from the act of contrition proves that this question is indeed valid. But then you probably think that prayer is invalid as well.

I do not think or believe that prayer is invalid. However, i feel and suspect that you are taking things out of context. I do not think you are doing it on purpose, but rather you fail to understand. However, i am not immune to the possibility that i maybe wrong. So lets agree to disagree and pray for each other. I don’t want to frustrate anybody and make them write in big letters.

Seriously. This is a philosophical forum not so much a theological one.

Philosophy is what i was practicing. You just don’t like it.

Or do you not understand what WHAT IF questions are about.

What if questions, are not an excuse to ignore logic or the true nature of God.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

God had been before heaven was. Heaven is created by God. So God is not heaven. God is in heaven - God’s kingdom. Jesus called heaven the house of His father, where Jesus prepared homes for those who live in God.

 

[MindOverMatter]

God had been before heaven was. Heaven is created by God. So God is not heaven. God is in heaven - God’s kingdom. Jesus called heaven the house of His father, where Jesus prepared homes for those who live in God.

Have you ever heard of poetry, metaphor, Allegory, Analogy?

God doesn’t exist in a place. God is existence. If God is in heaven, it is only because he is Heaven.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

In this case Dear, Jesus didn’t tell us poetry, metaphor, allegory, analogy,
but the plain truth - as far as we are able to understand

 

[MindOverMatter]

In this case Dear, Jesus didn’t tell us poetry, metaphor, allegory, analogy,
but the plain truth - as far as we are able to understand

No doubt, Jesus was speaking truth. Whether you understand it or not, is a different question.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Hello Ben!I got this today GOOD FRIDAY PRAYER OF LOVE FOR THE CRUCERFIED LORD. O Jesus, it is not the heavenly reward you have promised, which impels me to love you. Neither is it the threat of Hell, that keeps me from offending you, affixed to the cross and suffering insults: It is the site if your broken body,as well as your pains and your death. There is nothing you can give me, to make me love you. For even if there were No Heaven and No Hell, I would still love you as i do! Amen. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

In this case Dear, Jesus didn’t tell us poetry, metaphor, allegory, analogy,
but the plain truth - as far as we are able to understand

Um…yes he did. What do you think the parables are? Mini-biographies of all the people Jesus ever knew?

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

*St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 says:

12 5 But if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then neither has Christ been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith. 15 Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, neither has Christ been raised, 17 and if Christ has not been raised, 6 your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.
Taken from: usccb.org/nab/bible/1cori…inthians15.htm*

Soooo…I *think *I’m going to have to agree with St. Paul on this question. Call me crazy.

 

[kesa82]

Yes, yes yes, I know Benedictus2, this is a WHAT IF, meant to focus EXCLUSIVELY on that WHAT IF.
But clearly this question does provoke a profound emotional need in some to express their faith in, and desire for, heaven.
Right off hand, I can’t recall any such recent long discussion of the subject of heaven in CAF.
In CAF, as elsewhere generally, oddly, heaven is rarely discussed.
the thread does serve its original purpose … but it also happens to serve this other purpose. WHY and HOW it does , I think, is also very interesting.
You have to be pleased. Here is a purely theological thread that has almost gone to 30 pages. And doubtless will before it is done.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Look, I get that you’re all patting yourselves on the back for loving God without reward, but TheAtheist, though he paints some tragic (and disturbing) truths, has a point.

Because *Christ *has asked me, I turn the other cheek, even when I want to knock somebody’s block off! The wisdom of Christ is stupidity to the world; it only makes sense if Christ is risen from the dead. The scripture paints that picture.

This is a frivolous thread. Hiding behind the word “hypothetical” doesn’t change it. We put up with the sorrows and torment of this world knowing that Christ is our hope, and that we will be with him together in the flesh on the last day. The metaphor is used because in all actuality we do not know what *specifically *awaits us (there are no “floorplans” for Heaven on record in the Vatican). All we have is Christ’s promise, and our trust that he will keep his word. And he will. There is nothing else. As St. Paul states, this is the very *foundation *of our faith. I’m all for a good hypothetical scenario, but this…

I’ve answered. Sorry if I’ve upset anyone. Truly.

 

[bullfrog654]

myname is jerry some say we are to follow the path of jesus. while reading revelations i understand god will rise to heaven his hosen ones (not only jesus word as above) on times like these tribulation we are not to take actions in our own hands for when the day comes he does take his chosen people the ones left behind and not in heaven with jesus will be of the walking dead. be very cautious taking the bible out of context

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**I repeat: In those cases when Jesus promised us eternal life in heaven; the kingdom of His Father, and when Jesus described heaven in a way we understand as mentioned e.g. in the quoted bible-verses, Jesus did NOT tell us poetry, metaphor, allegory, analogy, but the plain truth.

Sad to see, that comments like
“Um…yes he did. What do you think the parables are? Mini-biographies of all the people Jesus ever knew?” (Nom the Wise)
or
“Whether you understand it or not, is a different question” (MindOverMatter) come from Catholics.

Heaven is not metaphor, but Jesus pictured us often enough heaven as place! Though we can’t really conceive, as St. Paul clarified in 1Cor 2,9 or 2Cor 5,1

What do you think heaven is, where the whole bible points at; Phil 3,20: But our citizenship 13 is in heaven, and from it we also await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Funny that some people “teach” different from the teaching of their Church, or Jesus Christ, who always spoke of a place “where the angels are and we will be like the angels”.

**

 

[twb1621]

The following is excerpts from the referenced link and interesting to take note of in regard to what or where heaven is;
In general, however, theologians deem more appropriate that there should be a special and glorious abode, in which the blessed have their peculiar home and where they usually abide, even though they be free to go about in this world. For the surroundings in the midst of which the blessed have their dwelling must be in accordance with their happy state; and the internal union of charity which joins them in affection must find its outward expression in community of habitation. At the end of the world, the earth together with the celestial bodies will be gloriously transformed into a part of the dwelling-place of the blessed (Revelation 21). Hence there seems to be no sufficient reason for attributing a metaphorical sense to those numerous utterances of the Bible which suggest a definite dwelling-place of the blessed. Theologians, therefore, generally hold that the heaven of the blessed is a special place with definite limits. Naturally, this place is held to exist, not within the earth, but, in accordance with the expressions of Scripture, without and beyond its limits. All further details regarding its locality are quite uncertain. The Church has decided nothing on this subject.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

If this be the general summation of theologians, it should not be an argument for a lay person to contradict without at least as credible support as they offer in the field of study. Regardless, it is nonsense to bicker with each other over the point of where or what it is when not one person can imagine it’s gifts and pleasures. By the time one person finds out they will no longer care to respond to the question.

As far as the question raised in the thread is concerned, as rediculous as it may sound to some, the question raises the awareness that just a Jesus did mot say, " I will die for your salvation if…" We should not say “I will accept you and love you if…” That is the point I believe.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Let us all this answer of TWB be a great help!
Jesus very often told us the plain and very direct genuine truth without the slightest metaphor.
Our citizenship is in heaven! Thanks God!
The place in heaven, Jesus prepared for us as He told us in Joh 14,2
**
“Regardless, it is nonsense to bicker with each other over the point of where or what it is when not one person can imagine it’s gifts and pleasures.”

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Bruno Schulz: You do realize that “Heaven” is an abstract noun, do you not? What were your grades in English class?

When I present you, Bruno Schulz, with an abstract noun, I must resort to similes, metaphors, parables (which are allegories with a moral) so that you might better understand the abstract noun.

“Our Citizenship is in Heaven.” Here Jesus presents us with two abstract nouns, one of which we understand (citizenship) as we are all “citizens” of someplace, and the other we do not understand (Heaven), which is why Jesus has to resort to figurative language in the first place. We are meant to contemplate this. It actually breaks down into a similie. Jesus is equating our “life in Heaven” with “citizenship.” Being in Heaven is *like *citizenship. It’s not *exactly *like citizenship most likely; I doubt there will be courts in Heaven, or taxes or vehicle stickers that we’ll have to buy. But we get the idea by Our Lord’s use of figurative language.

Speaking of Heaven, Jesus said “In my Father’s house there are many mansions.” *Right there *we are presented with TWO metaphors. 1. God the Father’s “house.” Is it really an actual house? Is “Heaven” made of brick and mortar and wood? No. But Jesus presented us with a METAPHOR; he wanted us to think about Heaven in terms of a house, a concrete noun that we are *familiar *with, so that we would *better understand *this place where we are going, which we have never actually seen. 2. Many mansions. How can many mansions (concrete nouns again) exist within a house? A mansion, by definition, is much bigger than a house. The combination of these two METAPHORS makes God the Father’s house seem just ENORMOUS! Gargantuan even! And inside God’s house, many mansions! Many!

That’s called poetry.* (I have more. I’ll be back later…)*

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If there was no heaven, there would be no such thing as God. So, how could i possibly love God?

​

OTOH…if God is Heaven, that would change the meaning of the question…

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Heaven is reality! Reality doesn’t allow the question “what about if it wouldn’t be”.
Jesus himself described and characterized heaven in Mat 5,12, Mat 5,16, Mat 5,45, Mat 6,1, and He spoke about his father in Heaven in the Lords prayer Mat 6,9 and very many others. To the thug on his left on the cross Jesus said in Lk 23,43: "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
I’m glad I looked this up rather than trusting you. Jesus hasn’t “described and characterized heaven” in *any *of the scriptures you’ve just cited; he just *mentions *Heaven. Just saying “you will go to Heaven” is not a description.
Bruno Schulz;5041387:

Jesus painted following picture for us to make heaven understood in John 14,2:
“In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.”

I quoted the King James Version saying “mansions” but both of our translations are
wrong. The original Greek says monae: “dwellings” specifically: mou monai, “many dwellings.” But yes, you are correct: Jesus has “painted” a “picture” for us with his use of metaphor. So glad we finally agree that Jesus uses metaphor. That’s a releif.

*Basileia *is the word used in Greek for “kingdom” (where we get “Basilica” in English) which I was taught can be misleading as it can also refer to a quality (abstract noun) as well as a place (concret noun). So in this context, the “kingdom” of Heaven (Heaven=ouranos=Uranus) can be the “Kingdomality of Heaven” or “Regality” perhaps. The preposition also points to this; in English we often hear it translated as “for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven” when in Greek it’s genetive: “for of them is the Kingdom of Heaven.”

When read this way, it can be said that we are blessed when we are persecuted because the kingdom of Heaven comes forth from us as a “quality of kingship” as it were. That in no way discounts Heaven as a “place” but only further defines it. It is *both *a place and a quality.

More to come…

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Having just analyzed the Beatitudes somewhat, this question of “no heaven” becomes painfully obvious as not only a fallacy, but a heresy against the Beatitudes themselves, and thus Christ. (I know, I know, it’s a WHAT IF scenario).

I’m not sure how anyone thinks 1 Corinthians 15 is taken out of context. St. Paul, in that passage, is playing out this WHAT IF scenario. Allow me to add the direct implications of what Paul is saying:

12 5 But if Christ is preached as raised from the dead (and thus in Heaven), how can some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? (when we will go to Heaven) 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead (and going to Heaven), then neither has Christ been raised (and gone to Heaven). 14 And if Christ has not been raised (and gone to Heaven), then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith. 15 Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ **(to Heaven), **whom he did not raise (to Heaven) if in fact the dead are not raised **(to Heaven). **16 For if the dead are not raised (Ibid), neither has Christ been raised, 17 and if Christ has not been raised, 6 your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished (and thus are not in Heaven). 19 If for this life only (and not going to Heaven) we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

I don’t know about you guys, but I count a grand total of 7 “ifs.”

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Having just analyzed the Beatitudes somewhat, this question of “no heaven” becomes painfully obvious as not only a fallacy, but a heresy against the Beatitudes themselves, and thus Christ. (I know, I know, it’s a WHAT IF scenario).

I’m not sure how anyone thinks 1 Corinthians 15 is taken out of context. St. Paul, in that passage, is playing out this WHAT IF scenario. Allow me to add the direct implications of what Paul is saying:

12 5 But if Christ is preached as raised from the dead (and thus in Heaven), how can some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? (when we will go to Heaven) 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead (and going to Heaven), then neither has Christ been raised (and gone to Heaven). 14 And if Christ has not been raised (and gone to Heaven), then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith. 15 Then we are also false witnesses to God, because we testified against God that he raised Christ **(to Heaven), **whom he did not raise (to Heaven) if in fact the dead are not raised **(to Heaven). **16 For if the dead are not raised (Ibid), neither has Christ been raised, 17 and if Christ has not been raised, 6 your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished (and thus are not in Heaven). 19 If for this life only (and not going to Heaven) we have hoped in Christ, we are the most pitiable people of all.

I don’t know about you guys, but I count a grand total of 7 “ifs.”

:thumbsup:And we know He has a family there :Ephesians:3:14-15 Love of Christ Nancy

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

How have so many of you missed the point that we have a** Testament with God**? A covenant? A *New *Testament. Like it or not, a covenant is an agreement: If you do this, I’ll do this. Have you all been so poorly catechized? It breaks my heart further that a Catholic priest actually posed this “what if” as a homily.

It’s a WHAT IF scenario. I get it. If there is No Heaven Will You Still Love God? NO! Absolutely not! Because I *believe *St. Paul when he writes that if Christ is not raised, then we are not raised, then Christ is not the Son of God and his promises were worthless. Fulton Sheen once went on to say that if Christ was not resurrected that Jesus of Nazareth was an anti-christ, for who in history could be said to have fooled so many (The Life of Christ, on sale at bookstores now).

This is Holy Week, isn’t it? How many of you have actually looked at a crucifix and THANKED Christ for dying for us, so that we could all go to Heaven? (You don’t feel so selfish now, do you! You feel horrified, humbled, repentent, ashamed). Thank you Jesus! Now I have hope! You took my sins upon yourself. That should be ME on that cross, but YOU SAVED ME! **We only want to go to Heaven now because Jesus offered it. It wasn’t our idea. Who would have *dared *to ask God to die for us? Who would have thought it were even possible that the infinite God would love us so much? What else did he die for?

This “WHAT IF” scenario spits in the face of the crucified Christ and denies his suffering; not only that, **it has caused believers to consider that God could break his promises (just for fun, of course!). How have so many taken this lightly? It undermines everything we hope for, and everything we suffer for in this life and the Covenant God made with us. It attacks the very foundation of the Church. Think of that stupid book/movie The Da Vinci Code. The great secret that could bring down the Church? Jesus had kids? No. Finding the corpse of Christ would bring down the Church. Of course, for us, we believe the witness of the aposltes; 11 of the 12 all died martyr’s deaths. They *saw *the risen Christ. They *knew with a certainty *that Jesus rose from the dead and was truly the Son of God and thus his word was good.

If there is no heaven there is no need of a crucifixion, no need of redemption.

Normally I’m very sad when I kill a thread, but this time I hope I’ve killed this thread good and dead, no hope for salvation, no heaven, just dead.