If voting republican doesn't change Abortion laws, then why vote Republican?

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Vonsalza said:
That’s how you rationalize it to yourself and I empathize with that deeply. We like to put over-simplistic lids on top of yucky, complex and problematic cauldrons. I do the same thing.

“Catholic apologists for the party of death” are often Catholics who simply recognize that the “ball” isn’t going to move on that issue. As such, they remove it from their political analysis and give the weight to other issues. Like taxes, economic policy, international relations and so on.
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Have you ever called abortion what it really is?

I would be glad to talk about any of the other things you list. They can be debated, abortion is killing pure and simple, no one disputes that, other than trying to “dumb down the meaning”…
 
Joe_5859 said:
Do you recognize the fact that giving up and “moving on” from the issue means that things will certainly not change?
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I see no valor in doggedly trying to beat down the brick wall with my forehead. And there are simply other issues worthy of consideration in the exercise of human governance. On those other issues, I’m not even remotely republican. Ergo, I’m not registered republican.

I’m still pro-life. I’m just not with the republican party on the other 90% of the plank.
 
Vonsalza said:
That’s how you rationalize it to yourself and I empathize with that deeply. We like to put over-simplistic lids on top of yucky, complex and problematic cauldrons. I do the same thing.

“Catholic apologists for the party of death” are often Catholics who simply recognize that the “ball” isn’t going to move on that issue. As such, they remove it from their political analysis and give the weight to other issues. Like taxes, economic policy, international relations and so on.
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Can you recognize how callous that line of thinking comes across to those who are concerned about abortion?

Say we changed “abortion” to “torturing two year olds.” If the law of the land (and the Democrat party platform) allowed parents to torture their children, would we shrug our shoulders say, “Eh, there’s nothing I can do—that’s just the way it is. Now let’s talk about the economy.” Under such law, parents could legally beat their children, pour acid on their face, and even rip their limbs off. If the child was particularly “deserving”, parents could even just vacuum their brains out and ditch their body in a dumpster. If that was the law in our land, would we set that issue aside as being “unwinnable” and just focus on other things instead?
 
dmelosi said:
Have you ever called abortion what it really is?

I would be glad to talk about any of the other things you list. They can be debated, abortion is killing pure and simple, no one disputes that, other than trying to “dumb down the meaning”…
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Oh there’s no doubt; abortion is murder.
 
Vonsalza said:
Oh there’s no doubt; abortion is murder.
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Do you even realize that you are saying we can’t stop murder, so you are going to stop beating your head against the wall and are just going to accept murder is ok?
 
In effect, this has very little to do with law, voting or directly with any political party. It has everything to do with the makeup of the nine judges who sit on the US Supreme Court. Pass a law banning abortion and it will be immediately overturned. The court decides the supposed constitutionality of laws and their decision is held bound. No unjust law can exist without first a challenge and their ultimate consent.

Abortion, as with any wilful taking of life, is not, will not, and cannot be stopped by any law. It can only be punished when it occurs. Naturally, once anything is de-criminalized, the demonstration of that behavior will increase. Abiding by the law is not a goal, it is bare minimum standard for society - drop below it and you risk incarceration.

Changing the human heart and the average citizen’s perception of human life will effect the change.
 
Joe_5859 said:
Can you recognize how callous that line of thinking comes across to those who are concerned about abortion?
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I can. But I would also hope that you might recognize how “single issue voters” can be very damaging to the body politic when there are many many many other issues at stake.
 
Vonsalza said:
If you want to burn your vote over one issue, I think you should have the freedom to do so. But for those of us smart enough to realize it’s not changing and subsequently “move-on”, it’s not “twisting to ease my conscience”. It’s pragmatic governance.
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Not to gang up on you too much (I promise, this is the last one :o), but do you recognize how condescending this sounds? It implies that “smart” people have moved beyond the abortion issue while those who choose to prioritize abortion are therefore dumb and just wasting their vote.

Again, I point to history. Grave social injustices have been rectified in our nation’s history. Even those that were entrenched in law. Why throw in the towel on something that is so seriously wrong?
 
dmelosi said:
On the opposite side of the thread title…

Do the democratic Catholics on here feel that they have to change their beliefs on abortion or get out?

It sure seems like the pro abortion stance is getting stronger and stronger as a litmus test, at least more and more democratic leaders are being vocal about it.

theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/democrats-abortion-litmus-test-controversy/536352/
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You can still be a Democrat and pro-life. I think a lot of Democrats have been voting Republican in some places for 25+ years.

Also, I think a few Catholic Democrats are trying to change the party platform on the issue—so give them credit on that.
 
Vonsalza said:
I can. But I would also hope that you might recognize how “single issue voters” can be very damaging to the body politic when there are many many many other issues at stake.
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So now you call murder an issue.

I would bet real money that there are a ton more single issue voters on the party of death’s side than republicans.

I would even say that democrats have 1 main issue, such as abortion, homosexuality, unions, climate change, etc and adopt their feelings for everything else because of their single most important issue.
 
dmelosi said:
Do you even realize that you are saying we can’t stop murder, so you are going to stop beating your head against the wall and are just going to accept murder is ok?
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Not true, I’ve never said that it was “ok”. I’ve just recognized that I can do about as much to stop it as I can to stop the lethal injections or wars that we’ll engage in this year.

I’m also willing to concede that there are other important issues at hand; on which I align far more closely to the democrats.
 
SuperLuigi said:
You can still be a Democrat and pro-life. I think a lot of Democrats have been voting Republican in some places for 25+ years.

Also, I think a few Catholic Democrats are trying to change the party platform on the issue—so give them credit on that.
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If that is true, I wish they would be more vocal about it. With recent democratic leaders coming out saying there is no room for the pro life view in their party, it would appear that the so called pro lifers in the democratic party are losing ground, not gaining.
 
dmelosi said:
I would bet real money that there are a ton more single issue voters on the party of death’s side than republicans.
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If there was a way to actually measure it reliably, I’d take that bet. The repubs have evangelicals voting for them based on only a handful of talking points that they don’t actually do anything about.
 
Vonsalza said:
Not true, I’ve never said that it was “ok”. I’ve just recognized that I can do about as much to stop it as I can to stop the lethal injections or wars that we’ll engage in this year.

I’m also willing to concede that there are other important issues at hand; on which I align far more closely to the democrats.
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Your unabashed apologist arguments indicates that you do accept it as ok.
 
dmelosi said:
Your unabashed apologist arguments indicates that you do accept it as ok.
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No, you just want to simplify them as such so they don’t threaten your paradigm concerning democrats, respectfully.
 
dmelosi said:
How do you think the most innocents killed would look at the paradigm?
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I have absolutely no idea on how the dead exist in the eternities of either destination.

If most modern Catholic thought on the idea is accurate and they’re likely in heaven, I would doubt very much that they care; as they dwell in the immediate presence of God.
 
Vonsalza said:
I have absolutely no idea on how the dead exist in the eternities of either destination.

If most modern Catholic thought on the idea is accurate and they’re likely in heaven, I would doubt very much that they care; as they dwell in the immediate presence of God.
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That line of thinking would make it ok to kill anyone as long as the person they kill go to heaven.
 
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