If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3

[Reformed]

Hi Reformed. Have you actually looked at and tried to read or study the Catholic Catechism? I admit that there is a LOT of information in there but its very well organized and I think you could discover the most important concepts in a few hours of scanning - certainly in a day or two of casual reading.

You can read it here: CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

If you were to look at actual teaching you will note that virtually every sentence or major instruction has a cross reference or footnote to specific Gospel passages and to major theological writings. As well there are references to saints and bishops writings as well as dogmatic proclamations from our popes - themselves all thoroughly cross referenced from scripture. The Catholic Church is the most thoroughly scripturally integrative faith on the planet. No other so called “church” in Christendom comes remotely close the the level of scriptural/biblical support, apostolic teaching and scholarship as the Catholic Church.

You mentioned you can’t find the Living Christ in Catholic Theology? Wow - amazing. We Catholics are perhaps the ONLY faith that firmly attests that Jesus IS the LIVING WORD. This is why Catholics are a Christ Centered Faith. We are not a biblically centered faith since we know that Jesus as the Living Word of God IS living and breathing scripture. We revere and worship Christ - the bible is our inspiration. It is only through the written word of His Prophets and His Apostles and their teaching tradition that we Catholics KNOW the MAN Jesus as a living and breathing brother. Christ is IS God’s WORD that came down from heaven to us as manna in the dessert. Christ came to us through the Incarnation just as God sent Manna to the early Jews. Jesus still comes down to us as the WORD OF GOD made flesh through the sacrement of Holy Eucharist. Read this section of the Catholic Catechism to learn more about the Living Christ.
Part III Life In Christ

Remember, that "One does not live by bread alone - but by every word that comes to us from God. And Jesus IS the living word of God and unless you eat it you have no life in you.

** Can you eat your bible?**:

NO - of course not. Only through knowing and loving Christ and by eating The Living Word of God can anyone LIVE In Christ and REMAIN in Christ.

Finally, on the matter of Grace. This statement reflects a very misinformed perspective of Catholicism: In addition, the gospel of God’s grace is not proclaimed in Catholic theology. There is an ENTIRE section of our Catechism devoted to nothing but God’s grace.

The Catholic Church lives, breathes and teaches grace. I can’t imagine how you can not see that Catholics embrace Grace as hungrily as an infant child suckles at the breast of its mother! The Catechism has entire major sections devoted to teaching nothing but grace. No other church on the planet has so much sacramental devotion to grace as does the Catholic Church (except for our Orthodox brothers). There are SO many ways to access God’s grace in the Catholic Church that you can’t escape it if you tried. We have SEVEN sacraments - each with its own special access to grace. Protestants have only 1 or 2 (Baptism and Marriage). Read the reference link I gave you and see for yourself in the following sections: SECTION TWO: THE SEVEN SACRAMENTS OF THE CHURCH, CHAPTER THREE: GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE

Can you elaborate on this statement of yours?
"I also find that Catholic theology creates many religious (SP) idols of the heart, hindering a growing affection for God alone. "
The entire Catholic Teaching is centered on self-denial and doing what Christ wants of us and to be every faithful and prayerful. How do you get a religious idol out of that? We reject humanism and secularism and other false “me-ism” based philosophies that we see substantially to non-Catholic philosophies. Examples please.

And one more of yours: **“by pure volumne (SP) of Sacred Tradition, the Holy Bible make-up about 1% or so of the Catholic Faith.” ** I don’t know where you are getting your ideas about Catholics from but every bit of it is wrong. Can you point me to where you are reading the “volume of tradition” so I can see where it is only 1% of the Holy Bible? The Bible IS CATHOLIC and COMES to us FROM tradition. Catholics assembled the Bible - it IS 100% Catholic. Who do you think has been defending it and dieing for it for 2,000 years? The Catholic Church believes in an apostolic tradition of teaching. We regard 100% of the bible as EQUAL in value to Tradition. That does not mean LESS than tradition. In fact tradition and the bible NEVER contradict. If you have any evidence of what you believe to be true please refer me to it so I may see it for myself and comment on it.

Good Luck,
James

I actually bought a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Companion of the Catechism about 12 years ago. If you were to die today, why would God let you into Heaven? What is the basis of your righteousness that is required by God (Rom 10).

 

[CentralFLJames]

I actually bought a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Companion of the Catechism about 12 years ago. If you were to die today, why would God let you into Heaven? What is the basis of your righteousness that is required by God (Rom 10).

Let me depersonalize this and speak in terms of Catholic teaching.

First of all let me say that Protestants and Catholics can end up talking past each other over simple semantic differences over how each understand the term “righteousness” and “justification”. They are interrelated and inseparable. Justification is a process that makes one righteous and it relies first on God’s grace and secondly on us cooperative with it and not spurning it. God never forces us to Love Him nor forces us to be His - we must reach for His universal loving embrace and learn to walk with Him in order to be His children.

In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace (James 2:24). Faith is the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God (Heb 11:6). Catholics believe in “a cooperative process” of God’s grace working with our imperfect cooperation that leads toward justification.

Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification.

I can quote you dozens and dozens of scripture verses about this. For now let me keep it simple except to say that if salvation was so simple a deed as declaring “I believe” then why did God not see fit to only put a single page with a single sentence in the New Testament that says one must “only believe”. That is because it is only the first step and much more that we must do to cooperate with God’s salvific grace and also be mindful of avoiding specific transgressions while never giving up when we do stumble. This is why repentance is a continuous process of forgivness (through sacramental confession) and leads to ever greater spiritual maturity for the person who remains committed to salvation. No one just falls into heaven by accident - it takes real cooperative effort with God - every step of the way there. To get to the promised land we must walk the walk, talk the talk, and live each and ever day carrying our cross and denying ourselves. When we fall, we get up, shake the dust off (through confession of sins) or with the help of our brethren in the Church and persevere. Note that not all of the Jews made it through the dessert to the Promised Land even though they all called themselves “Jews”. The same principal is true of those who call themselves Christians but don’t obey nor walk (or be carried by a friend) all the way home to the Promised Land.

Now this is where Catholic Tradition is very helpful. This Tradition comes to us from the early Church Fathers who all knew the apostles or their later disciples. From men who personally knew the most holy followers of Christ we get insight into the more subtle semantics and meanings expressed in scripture and in other writings. From the following Church Fathers we know that “Justification Brings About Infused Righteousness”.

• Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:10,1 (A.D. 180).
• Origen, First Principles, I:I,3 (A.D. 230).
• Cyprian, On Works and Alms,14 (A.D. 254).
• Athanasius, Incarnation, 54 (A.D. 318).
• Athanasius, On the Defense of the Nicene Creed, 31 (A.D. 351).
• John Chrysostom, Romans, Homily VII:24,25 (A.D. 391).
• Augustine, On the merits and forgiveness of sins, 1:9 (A.D. 412).
• Augustine, On the Spirit and the Letter, 9:15 (A.D. 412).
• etc.

Basically - we are Justified by Grace Through Faith and cooperative Works. We can NOT buy or “work” our way into heaven of course. But it is impossible to Love God and not in some way demonstrate that love through real actions and conducts that validate our attested Love. It is a work itself to walk with God in Faith against our human inclinations to sin and self serve.

More Here:
Scripture and Early Church Father Teaching on Justification
and Here: Catholic Justification

I hope that answers your question.

James

 

[Reformed]

Let me depersonalize this and speak in terms of Catholic teaching.

First of all let me say that Protestants and Catholics can end up talking past each other over simple semantic differences over how each understand the term “righteousness” and “justification”. They are interrelated and inseparable. Justification is a process that makes one righteous and it relies first on God’s grace and secondly on us cooperative with it and not spurning it. God never forces us to Love Him nor forces us to be His - we must reach for His universal loving embrace and learn to walk with Him in order to be His children.

In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace (James 2:24). Faith is the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God (Heb 11:6). Catholics believe in “a cooperative process” of God’s grace working with our imperfect cooperation that leads toward justification.

Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification.

I can quote you dozens and dozens of scripture verses about this. For now let me keep it simple except to say that if salvation was so simple a deed as declaring “I believe” then why did God not see fit to only put a single page with a single sentence in the New Testament that says one must “only believe”. That is because it is only the first step and much more that we must do to cooperate with God’s salvific grace and also be mindful of avoiding specific transgressions while never giving up when we do stumble. This is why repentance is a continuous process of forgivness (through sacramental confession) and leads to ever greater spiritual maturity for the person who remains committed to salvation. No one just falls into heaven by accident - it takes real cooperative effort with God - every step of the way there. To get to the promised land we must walk the walk, talk the talk, and live each and ever day carrying our cross and denying ourselves. When we fall, we get up, shake the dust off (through confession of sins) or with the help of our brethren in the Church and persevere. Note that not all of the Jews made it through the dessert to the Promised Land even though they all called themselves “Jews”. The same principal is true of those who call themselves Christians but don’t obey nor walk (or be carried by a friend) all the way home to the Promised Land.

Now this is where Catholic Tradition is very helpful. This Tradition comes to us from the early Church Fathers who all knew the apostles or their later disciples. From men who personally knew the most holy followers of Christ we get insight into the more subtle semantics and meanings expressed in scripture and in other writings. From the following Church Fathers we know that “Justification Brings About Infused Righteousness”.

• Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:10,1 (A.D. 180).
• Origen, First Principles, I:I,3 (A.D. 230).
• Cyprian, On Works and Alms,14 (A.D. 254).
• Athanasius, Incarnation, 54 (A.D. 318).
• Athanasius, On the Defense of the Nicene Creed, 31 (A.D. 351).
• John Chrysostom, Romans, Homily VII:24,25 (A.D. 391).
• Augustine, On the merits and forgiveness of sins, 1:9 (A.D. 412).
• Augustine, On the Spirit and the Letter, 9:15 (A.D. 412).
• etc.

Basically - we are Justified by Grace Through Faith and cooperative Works. We can NOT buy or “work” our way into heaven of course. But it is impossible to Love God and not in some way demonstrate that love through real actions and conducts that validate our attested Love. It is a work itself to walk with God in Faith against our human inclinations to sin and self serve.

More Here:
Scripture and Early Church Father Teaching on Justification
and Here: Catholic Justification

I hope that answers your question.

James

Are you familiar with the two documents of ECT 1 and ECT II? The doctrine of justification is the dividing line between biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism. The Council of Trent prohibits Rome from reforming her view of the gospel of God’s grace. Therefore, only Protestants can move toward Rome and away from the gospel proclaimed by the Protestant Reformation. If what the Reformers proclaimed to be true in regards to justification, then our differences are irreconcilable. The problem is historical ignorance of the essential issues at hand by contemporary Christians. Do you seem to agree with my assessment? I do believe God saves sinners in-spite of our errors in theology. Heaven will have both Catholics and Protestants, and Hell will have both Catholics and Protestants too. Our hope is the biblical Christ.

 

[Robbinson]

Let me depersonalize this and speak in terms of Catholic teaching.

First of all let me say that Protestants and Catholics can end up talking past each other over simple semantic differences over how each understand the term “righteousness” and “justification”. They are interrelated and inseparable. Justification is a process that makes one righteous and it relies first on God’s grace and secondly on us cooperative with it and not spurning it. God never forces us to Love Him nor forces us to be His - we must reach for His universal loving embrace and learn to walk with Him in order to be His children.

In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace (James 2:24). Faith is the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God (Heb 11:6). Catholics believe in “a cooperative process” of God’s grace working with our imperfect cooperation that leads toward justification.

Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification.

I can quote you dozens and dozens of scripture verses about this. For now let me keep it simple except to say that if salvation was so simple a deed as declaring “I believe” then why did God not see fit to only put a single page with a single sentence in the New Testament that says one must “only believe”. That is because it is only the first step and much more that we must do to cooperate with God’s salvific grace and also be mindful of avoiding specific transgressions while never giving up when we do stumble. This is why repentance is a continuous process of forgivness (through sacramental confession) and leads to ever greater spiritual maturity for the person who remains committed to salvation. No one just falls into heaven by accident - it takes real cooperative effort with God - every step of the way there. To get to the promised land we must walk the walk, talk the talk, and live each and ever day carrying our cross and denying ourselves. When we fall, we get up, shake the dust off (through confession of sins) or with the help of our brethren in the Church and persevere. Note that not all of the Jews made it through the dessert to the Promised Land even though they all called themselves “Jews”. The same principal is true of those who call themselves Christians but don’t obey nor walk (or be carried by a friend) all the way home to the Promised Land.

Now this is where Catholic Tradition is very helpful. This Tradition comes to us from the early Church Fathers who all knew the apostles or their later disciples. From men who personally knew the most holy followers of Christ we get insight into the more subtle semantics and meanings expressed in scripture and in other writings. From the following Church Fathers we know that “Justification Brings About Infused Righteousness”.

• Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:10,1 (A.D. 180).
• Origen, First Principles, I:I,3 (A.D. 230).
• Cyprian, On Works and Alms,14 (A.D. 254).
• Athanasius, Incarnation, 54 (A.D. 318).
• Athanasius, On the Defense of the Nicene Creed, 31 (A.D. 351).
• John Chrysostom, Romans, Homily VII:24,25 (A.D. 391).
• Augustine, On the merits and forgiveness of sins, 1:9 (A.D. 412).
• Augustine, On the Spirit and the Letter, 9:15 (A.D. 412).
• etc.

Basically - we are Justified by Grace Through Faith and cooperative Works. We can NOT buy our way into heaven of course. But it is impossible to Love God and not in some way demonstrate that love through real actions and conducts that validate our attested Love.

More Here:
Scripture and Early Church Father Teaching on Justification
and Here: Catholic Justification

I hope that answers your question.

James

Wonderful post. This is illustrated by Jesus’ statement in Matt 7:21:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

These believers had “faith” and clearly must have been empowered by the Holy Spirit and thus drove out demons in Christ’s name - but they failed to follow Christ’s commandments as described in the Beattitudes. By failing to feed the poor and care for the sick, they abandoned their bretheren and thus, says Christ, abandoned Christ as well.

Salvation (justification and sanctification) comes through both faith and works. Works without faith will not be sufficient, but faith without works is dead (James).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[CentralFLJames]

Are you familiar with the two documents of ECT 1 and ECT II? The doctrine of justification is the dividing line between biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism. The Council of Trent prohibits Rome from reforming her view of the gospel of God’s grace. Therefore, only Protestants can move toward Rome and away from the gospel proclaimed by the Protestant Reformation. If what the Reformers proclaimed to be true in regards to justification, then our differences are irreconcilable. The problem is historical ignorance of the essential issues at hand by contemporary Christians. Do you seem to agree with my assessment? I do believe God saves sinners in-spite of our errors in theology. Heaven will have both Catholics and Protestants, and Hell will have both Catholics and Protestants too. Our hope is the biblical Christ.

No Reformed, I am not familiar with the documents since I am not very steeped in the Ecumenical ministries and initiatives. But now that you brought them to my attention I will scan them rapidly and see if I can learn about it.

The safety net which I hope and pray will be there for those poor souls who get caught up in the factions of teachings but who desire to know the truth is God’s Divine Mercy. I pray daily that God’s Mercy will win out for those who honestly through no personal fault of their own follow the wrong teachings.

I’ll get back to you as I read more about these documents.

Peace,
James

 

[distracted]

Hehehehehehehehehe…my thoughts too…only in reverse…from the “other” side

(Thought I’d use those little blue facey things, as they seem to be very popular in here)

they always forget that Hitler converted to Lutheranism. (and i recently learned he was gay ). that’s probably why he left the Catholic Church… so he could still do things unChristian without rejecting Christ.

Oh please again…

 

[Leeann]

Cinette:

Well, didn’t He give us free choice. I don’t think if you disregard the Catholic Church you will be condemned - you just limit yourself that’s all.
Hi Cinette: I agree with you - if I disregard the CC I won’t be condemned and yes He has given us a free choice. I don’t understand how not participating would “limit” me in any way.

I have been reading carefully reading through the Catechsim of the CChurch and have posted a portion below.

It would seem that not all would agree with your own understanding, about “not being condemned”.

From the Vatican Website: Catechism of the Catholic Church Part One - The Profession of Faith

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother”(St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

 

[catholiconce]

they always forget that Hitler converted to Lutheranism. (and i recently learned he was gay ). that’s probably why he left the Catholic Church… so he could still do things unChristian without rejecting Christ.

Oh please again…

Well that was uncalled for and way out of line!! Where do you get your facts? I could bring up a thing or two but what would the point be ?

 

[Leeann]

they always forget that Hitler converted to Lutheranism. (and i recently learned he was gay ). that’s probably why he left the Catholic Church… so he could still do things unChristian without rejecting Christ.

Oh please again…

Hhhhmmmm…don’t think I’ll touch that comment with a ten foot pole! But it sooooooo tempting!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Hi Cinette: I agree with you - if I disregard the CC I won’t be condemned and yes He has given us a free choice. I don’t understand how not participating would “limit” me in any way.

I have been reading carefully reading through the Catechsim of the CChurch and have posted a portion below.

It would seem that not all would agree with your own understanding, about “not being condemned”.

From the Vatican Website: Catechism of the Catholic Church Part One - The Profession of Faith

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother”(St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

I think its wonderful that you are reading the CC Leeann. I hope you read it from a spirit of truly trying to understand rather than going in to hunt for things that seem to contradict your own understandings. I think if you go in objectively you will see that it all is rational, consistent, makes sense and integrates well with scripture and the Early Church Father’s writings.

Let me also point out a common fallacy that a lot of people have about freewill. God giving humanity freewill was not a license to make all choices as valid options. In other words, morally speaking, irrespective of freewill we are not free to choose Choice B over Choice A simply because it looks pleasing to the eye so to speak and because we can choose it (ref. the forbidden fruit in Eden). There is no concept of universal freedom of choice without consequences - positive or negative. Adam & Even had freewill but God did not also give us the morally lawful right to select all choices as equal. On other words, simply because we can “make choices” does not imply that all choices are equally valid.

Also, I would not be so quick to form the opinion that one can ignore the CC teachings since these are all linked to scripture, apostolic teaching and are true teachings.

James

 

[TriuneUnity]

Well that was uncalled for and way out of line!! Where do you get your facts? I could bring up a thing or two but what would the point be ?

Yeah…I’d love to see the source for the Hitler becoming Lutheran thing lol

 

[agnostic]

Leeann and CentralFLJames - I’m finding reading both of your sets of posts very very interesting.

That’s all - sorry don’t want to or mean to derail the thread

 

[Cinette]

they always forget that Hitler converted to Lutheranism. (and i recently learned he was gay ). that’s probably why he left the Catholic Church… so he could still do things unChristian without rejecting Christ.

Oh please again…

You are being mean!

 

[Cinette]

Cinette:

Well, didn’t He give us free choice. I don’t think if you disregard the Catholic Church you will be condemned - you just limit yourself that’s all.

Have you ever looked at the concept of “implicit Faith”? Its interesting and consoling.

 

[Cinette]

I think its wonderful that you are reading the CC Leeann. I hope you read it from a spirit of truly trying to understand rather than going in to hunt for things that seem to contradict your own understandings. I think if you go in objectively you will see that it all is rational, consistent, makes sense and integrates well with scripture and the Early Church Father’s writings.

Let me also point out a common fallacy that a lot of people have about freewill. God giving humanity freewill was not a license to make all choices as valid options. In other words, morally speaking, irrespective of freewill we are not free to choose Choice B over Choice A simply because it looks pleasing to the eye so to speak and because we can choose it (ref. the forbidden fruit in Eden). There is no concept of universal freedom of choice without consequences - positive or negative. Adam & Even had freewill but God did not also give us the morally lawful right to select all choices as equal. On other words, simply because we can “make choices” does not imply that all choices are equally valid.

Also, I would not be so quick to form the opinion that one can ignore the CC teachings since these are all linked to scripture, apostolic teaching and are true teachings.

James

Thank you for your post - it was good and enlightening:thumbsup:

 

[Reformed]

No Reformed, I am not familiar with the documents since I am not very steeped in the Ecumenical ministries and initiatives. But now that you brought them to my attention I will scan them rapidly and see if I can learn about it.

The safety net which I hope and pray will be there for those poor souls who get caught up in the factions of teachings but who desire to know the truth is God’s Divine Mercy. I pray daily that God’s Mercy will win out for those who honestly through no personal fault of their own follow the wrong teachings.

I’ll get back to you as I read more about these documents.

Peace,
James

I agree on your desire and prayer too. The Scriptures proclaim that God saves sinners (in-spite of ourselves). Our theologies and religious affiliations are not the savior. Jesus Christ saves sinners.

1 Timothy 1:15

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.

 

[Leeann]

Originally Posted by Leeann
Cinette:

Well, didn’t He give us free choice. I don’t think if you disregard the Catholic Church you will be condemned - you just limit yourself that’s all.
Hi Cinette: I agree with you - if I disregard the CC I won’t be condemned and yes He has given us a free choice. I don’t understand how not participating would “limit” me in any way.

I have been reading carefully reading through the Catechsim of the CChurch and have posted a portion below.

It would seem that not all would agree with your own understanding, about “not being condemned”.

From the Vatican Website: Catechism of the Catholic Church Part One - The Profession of Faith

181 “Believing” is an ecclesial act. The Church’s faith precedes, engenders, supports and nourishes our faith. The Church is the mother of all believers. “No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother”(St. Cyprian, De unit. 6: PL 4, 519).

Have you ever looked at the concept of “implicit Faith”? Its interesting and consoling.

Cinetter: That does sounds interesting, could you share a bit on what your own concept is of “implicit Faith” ?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Cinetter: That does sounds interesting, could you share a bit on what your own concept is of “implicit Faith” ?

This is an amazing topic worthy of its own discussion. Let me just toss out a few comments - even though its off OP.

Ever meet somone who has a very simple, down to earth attitude who seems pleasant, friendly, good-hearted and descent in every way but does not wear their religion on their sleeve (or even seem to know anything in the bible other than the golden rule)? Ever contemplate how a Just and Loving God could condemn such a “good person” who is so instantly likable and morally descent for not knowing every verse in the bible or every dogmatic teaching (if the observer is Catholic)? I have met a number of people like this in my life who had no outwardly obvious religious indoctrination at all and to my knowledge were not even baptized. I used to agonize over a neighbor of mine when I was a young boy and wondered how this nice lady was going to get to heaven without being baptised or going to church. She always was kind and gave us kids candy and talked to us. I later found out she was an orphaned Jew from WWII and her parents were killed by the Nazis in the concentration camps.

I reckon that there are probably many who do not verbally confess they are Christians (for lack of knowledge) yet are very recognizable as “Christians in deed”.

Recall this verse:
“Why do you call me Lord, Lord, yet do not do what I say?”

Turn it around and contemplate an interesting possibility:
‘Why do you do what I say, yet not call me Lord, Lord?’

For an interesting thought reconcile that with the following verses here that seems to suggest that some make it to heaven without them quite understanding how that was possible when they did not call The Lord, “Lord” and discovered at judgement that this was required:
Matthew 25:34-40:

34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

This is where we can see vividly how works are a true indication of one’s truly embraced faith. This is a faith that is not necessarily reached through a scholarly understanding of every aspect of scripture through reason alone. Reason does not save if it fails to cooperate with grace to invoke actions and changes that fundamentally transform the soul. A faith that never eventually produces real works is an empty and false faith. Such is little more than intellectual lip-service and self delusion. But a soul that produces Christian works, and is not in grave sin through conscious rejection of Christ (through ignorance) yet does not necessarily know why it does good works is living an implicit faith.

We all must ask: ‘Do I have the faith Christ requires?’ To which an inner voice might say 'Look not at the creed, but rather at the deed. Listen not to the word spoken in season, but rather to that uttered out of season. Then you will see what faith or unfaith they imply." (borrowed from a non-Catholic sermon I found here.)

In other words what naturally and reflexively comes out of a person without a lot of conscious thought is what a person truly is and what a person truly believes. Actions speak louder to God than words. This is why we can say that personal trials, even if on the order of what Job suffered, are really blessings. Since each and every trial reveals our true inner self and gives us an opportunity to self-reflect on “who we really are”. We can either take joy in reflexively doing the right thing (and usually suffering for it with a deferred blessing) or take shame is discovering we were not the person we thought we were ('How could I do that?!"). The latter discovery is usually indicative of a revealed self-pride that left us blind to a vulnerability that God wants us to correct immediately.

We can never intellectually understand all the mysteries of our Christian faith (especially The Trinity, Transubstantiation, Baptism etc.). And I suppose there are some, perhaps even most, who lack the intellectual wherewithal or the time to thoroughly know all aspects of The True Apostolic Teaching (the Catholic Faith). The theology is pretty profound and deep (what average man or woman reckon the deep intellectual minds of men like St. Augustin or St. Thomas Aquinas!).

No doubt there are also many who “implicitly trust” The Church and blindly put their faith in the collective wisdom of The Church and her many scholars and teachings “to get it right”. Those in non-Catholic faiths usually unconsciously do a similar thing by relying completely on themselves to “get it right” by thinking the bible will tell them all they need to know. But in the end ALL Christians (of the age of consent) will be tested (over and over again if blessed to “get it right”) and will do as we ourselves truly believe. Thus, respecting that there are a diversity of understanding and spiritual maturity present in the corpus of The Church I think it is safe to say that there is some form of implicit faith in anyone who is saved.

Note, that children and infants not of age of reason and mentally handicapped must implicitly trust their parents.

This is a side thought - and perhaps somewhat provoking. What is ironic to me and worthy of meditation is to recall how the Reformers abhorred the implication that somone could buy what they (wrongly) imagined was a licence to sin through purchasing indulgences (even though this misperception came from an ignorant understanding of Catholic purgatorial doctrine). Yet some of the same descendant followers in this modern day find nothing repugnant or inconsistent at all to take in the false notion that at Calvary Jesus gave us all a FREE license to sin through a doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS) - ‘if one only sins boldly but more boldly so trust in God’s saving grace’. This is putting the Lord Your God To The Test!.

Yet there are among the Protestant communities many individuals who do not profess any of these “Protestant things” and just find themselves in a faith community and quietly go about life DOING good works (in spite of Protestant teachings that works are not necessary). Or they may in fact profess “The Lord” openly without fully understanding His teachings. This is implicit faith and this is how I think it is possible for some non-Catholics to be saved. Such, known only to God in numbers, are really unknowingly members of the Body of Christ, that is, The Catholic Church. They just don’t know it. Such essentially are silent on certain matters of faith, or may be saying the wrong things but through the grace of God are sill doing good works in spite of what they may be saying but what their heart knows to be true.

Clearly one’s deeds are an expression of one’s Implicit Faith.

Here is an interesting thread on some aspects of implicit faith:
St. Thomas Aquinas on the salvation of non-Christians

James

 

[distracted]

Well that was uncalled for and way out of line!! Where do you get your facts? I could bring up a thing or two but what would the point be ?

I am out of line??? hmmm

 

[distracted]

You are being mean!

if telling the truth is being mean, i am guilty as charged.