"If you died right now, are you 100% sure you would go to Heaven? (St. Paul wasn't)

[believers]

“Information is received depending on the mode of the recipient.” - St. Thomas Aquinas

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Sorry to just throw out a verse without explaining. The Word of God is clear that Word of God is pure and we must study Word of God to show ourselves approved unto God. It is the Sword of the Spirit.

 

[Lampo]

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Sorry to just throw out a verse without explaining. The Word of God is clear that Word of God is pure and we must study to show ourselves approved unto God. It is the Sword of the Spirit.

Are you correct in your explanation/interpretation? If so, prove it.

Col 2:8 - “See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world and not according to Christ.”

The elemental powers of the world: while the term can refer to the “elements” like earth, air, fire, and water or to elementary forms of religion, the sense here is more likely that of celestial beings that were thought in pagan circles to control the world; cf Gal 4:8; Col 2:8, 20.

I’m sorry to hear that you think St. Thomas Aquinas’ philosophy is empty and seductive.

 

[look3467]

Look3467…Who do you accept to tell you that you are wrong in your interpretations?>>>Lampo

At present Lampo, there is none but the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe you will remain a branch of the vine if you do not produce good fruit?>>>Lampo

No, I didn’t miss it, that verse has a deeper meaning than what we are given to understand via the churches.

The branches that were cut off from the vine (Spiritually speaking) were the Jewish nation. They held prior to Christ the only inheritance to God while the rest of the world was without hope.

Consider the Jewish nation as like the first born, like Cain, like Esau, like Ishmael and Jesus like Able, like Jacob and like Isaac.

In order to change the intended inheritor (Israel) spiritually, to the second born Jesus, (Spiritually) there must be a cutting off of both a spiritual inheritance and a physical inheritance.(King of the Jews)

Clarification: Jesus as like second born in comparison to Adam and Isreal.

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

The branch is Jesus physically whose life was “cut off” by Israel, as like the first born, or as like Cain killing Able.

Hos 10:15 So shall Bethel do unto you because of your great wickedness: in a morning shall the king of Israel utterly be cut off.

Was not Jesus considered to be of great wickedness, thus driven to the cross to be “cut off”? And was not Jesus a prince until declared to be “King” at the cross?

Now Israel shall be cut off spiritually: 1Ki 9:7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

Then Isreal like a branch also shall be grafted back in when Jesus said: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

Here in then is both being cut off: Isa 9:14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

Can we now see what cutting off of the branch really means?
Application of that can be also used to threaten souls to hell if they do not fly right.

Here we see the whole scenario of Gods works in the salvation of the world.

Question: Can you obtain Heaven if you do not forgive others that have sinned against you?>>>Lampo

Answering it with a question, does that make Christ of none effect if I don’t?

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

If my righteousness saves me, then what need have I for Christ?

My own works can be a curse or a blessing, yet while I live, but Christ has my soul kept sound.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Lampo]

At present Lampo, there is none but the Holy Spirit.

Has the Holy Spirit ever told you that you were wrong?

Answering it with a question, does that make Christ of none effect if I don’t?

You tell me. “If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.” - Matt. 6:14-15

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

If my righteousness saves me, then what need have I for Christ?

My own works can be a curse or a blessing, yet while I live, but Christ has my soul kept sound.

Peace>>>AJ

Why does James say that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone? James says this because we are justified, and ultimately saved, through both our faith and works, and not just faith alone.

Catholics ultimately believe that we are saved, not by faith or works, but by Jesus Christ and Him alone. Jesus Christ’s death and Resurrection is the sole source of our justification (being in a right relationship with God) and salvation (sharing in God’s divine life). But as a result of Christ’s death and resurrection, we are now able to receive God’s grace. Grace is God’s own divine life which He infuses into our souls. It is what Adam initially lost for us, and Christ won back for us. This grace initially causes us to seek God and to believe in Him (the “faith” part).

But God desires us to respond to His grace by putting our faith into action (the “works” part). This is why Jesus always taught about our salvation in the context of what we actually did during our earthly lives, and not how much faith we had (“whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did to Me.” Matthew 25:40,45). When Jesus teaches about His second coming where He will separate the sheep from the goats, He bases salvation and damnation upon what we actually did (“works”), whether righteous or evil. Matthew 25:31-46. In James 2:14-26, James is similarly instructing us to put our faith into action by performing good works, and not just giving an intellectual assent of faith. James says such “faith apart from works is dead.” James 2:17,26.

So we must do more than accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Even the demons believe Jesus is Savior, and yet “they tremble.” James 2:19. We must also do good works. Faith is the beginning of a process that leads us toward justification, but faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Faith and works acting together achieve our justification. Saint Paul says it best when he writes that we need “faith working in love.” Galatians 5:6. We are not justified and saved by faith alone.

 

[look3467]

You seem to really be confused with deeds and faith.>>>rinnie

Quite the contrary, Gods works are not mans works.
My works (Deeds if you will) have absolutely nothing to do with God’s works of salvation.

God saves mankind and not mankind saves self.

Now, if after I have received the precious gift of life (Jesus) and live not righteously, I will be spanked, sort of speak, for God says He chastens whom He loves, but never will I loose my salvation.

Now, you think I am still confused?

The condition for my salvation is not based on my “good deeds” but only on the “good deed” that Jesus did.

Life (Gods love) has to come from within me by will and not by requirement.

If by requirement, then it is no longer by life. (Gods love).

Does love animate from you willingly or is someone, institution requiring it from you as a condition?

2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

If you were a Mormon, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Catholic, a Baptist, a Jehovah’s Witness, an atheist, I would love you!

I wouldn’t have a problem with how you choose to worship if only love is at the core of your actions.

Who did Jesus die for, a Mormon, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Catholic, a Baptist, a Jehovah’s Witness, an atheist?

I don’t recall reading where Jesus had discriminated.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[rinnie]

Quite the contrary, Gods works are not mans works.
My works (Deeds if you will) have absolutely nothing to do with God’s works of salvation.

God saves mankind and not mankind saves self.

Now, if after I have received the precious gift of life (Jesus) and live not righteously, I will be spanked, sort of speak, for God says He chastens whom He loves, but never will I loose my salvation.

Now, you think I am still confused?

The condition for my salvation is not based on my “good deeds” but only on the “good deed” that Jesus did.

Life (Gods love) has to come from within me by will and not by requirement.

If by requirement, then it is no longer by life. (Gods love).

Does love animate from you willingly or is someone, institution requiring it from you as a condition?

2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

If you were a Mormon, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Catholic, a Baptist, a Jehovah’s Witness, an atheist, I would love you!

I wouldn’t have a problem with how you choose to worship if only love is at the core of your actions.

Who did Jesus die for, a Mormon, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Catholic, a Baptist, a Jehovah’s Witness, an atheist?

I don’t recall reading where Jesus had discriminated.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Lampo]

The branches that were cut off from the vine (Spiritually speaking) were the Jewish nation. They held prior to Christ the only inheritance to God while the rest of the world was without hope.

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.

 

[Lampo]

That verse does not in the least mean that Paul doubted his salvation.

1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).

1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).

 

[rinnie]

Quite the contrary, Gods works are not mans works.
My works (Deeds if you will) have absolutely nothing to do with God’s works of salvation.

God saves mankind and not mankind saves self.

Now, if after I have received the precious gift of life (Jesus) and live not righteously, I will be spanked, sort of speak, for God says He chastens whom He loves, but never will I loose my salvation.

Now, you think I am still confused?

The condition for my salvation is not based on my “good deeds” but only on the “good deed” that Jesus did.

Life (Gods love) has to come from within me by will and not by requirement.

If by requirement, then it is no longer by life. (Gods love).

Does love animate from you willingly or is someone, institution requiring it from you as a condition?

2Jo 1:5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

If you were a Mormon, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Catholic, a Baptist, a Jehovah’s Witness, an atheist, I would love you!

I wouldn’t have a problem with how you choose to worship if only love is at the core of your actions.

Who did Jesus die for, a Mormon, a Jew, a Buddhist, a Catholic, a Baptist, a Jehovah’s Witness, an atheist?

I don’t recall reading where Jesus had discriminated.

Peace>>>AJ

I just dont know where to begin. Okay You said It does not matter how we choose to worship if only Love is at the Core of your actions. Thats start there, thats a good one. Ok. Now where would I go to find Jesus, or the Apostles telling me to do this. This is scripture right?

 

[Lampo]

Now, if after I have received the precious gift of life (Jesus) and live not righteously, I will be spanked, sort of speak, for God says He chastens whom He loves, but never will I loose my salvation.

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God’s grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If “once saved, always saved” were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?

 

[look3467]

Has the Holy Spirit ever told you that you were wrong? >>>Lampo

Yes indeed!

In my search for truth I stumbled across a view that was basically Jewish in nature yet had some Christian views integrated in it as well.

It called for me to observe the Sabbath as the Sabbath day Saturday, and also eliminated all souls from salvation after 1999.

This view I was looking into traced what was termed “marked man” in Genesis: Gen 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

I was given to try to observe the Sabbath and tried it whole heartily as a matter of faith.

There was however, a troubling spirit about my attempts which I had to seek guidance from God.

I did, and after a time of trial, I was given the answer to the proper understanding of it by the Holy Spirit.

You see, God knowing our hearts will, will instruct us, guide us safely to a higher ground but not before a trial of experience.

We need to experience what the other side looks like if we are to make a good judgment.

I have and feel and am confident that God would not lead me astray but instead made of me a better person inside.

You tell me. “If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.” - Matt. 6:14-15>>>Lampo

That is true. God’s forgiveness is an eternal gift of life regardless of human behavior, yet He is just to forgive our behavioral sins upon our repentance. (Change of mind)

“Just and for the unjust”

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Therefore: Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Question is: what are we going to do with our free?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Lampo]

Yes indeed!

In my search for truth I stumbled across a view that was basically Jewish in nature yet had some Christian views integrated in it as well.

It called for me to observe the Sabbath as the Sabbath day Saturday, and also eliminated all souls from salvation after 1999.

Interesting. Back when you were searching for the truth and stumbled across this view, at the time did you think the Holy Spirit was leading you this way and that it was the truth? Do you think the Holy Spirit is currently leading you to believe in the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” and that THAT is the truth?

 

[look3467]

I just dont know where to begin. Okay You said It does not matter how we choose to worship if only Love is at the Core of your actions. Thats start there, thats a good one. Ok. Now where would I go to find Jesus, or the Apostles telling me to do this. This is scripture right?

Jesus left us two commandments: Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

On these two, rinnie, rests all your good works.

If your beliefs, whatever it might be Catholic or other, if these two commandments are not practiced, than James has some words for you.

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

If we love God, then our faith is demonstrated in love towards our neighbor.
But if works is the motive than love has no place and is as dead works.

Now answer me this question, if a religion practices not these two commandments is that religion works dead works?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Lampo]

Now answer me this question, if a religion practices not these two commandments is that religion works dead works?

Peace>>>AJ

Keep in mind Catholicism is a “both/and” faith. It’s not either/or.

Now you answer me these questions: Why was St. Paul working out his salvation in fear and trembling if he had absolute assurance? What was he fearing and why was he trembling?

 

[SIA]

Are you correct in your explanation/interpretation? If so, prove it.

.

Why don’t you prove that he is not.

 

[look3467]

Interesting. Back when you were searching for the truth and stumbled across this view, at the time did you think the Holy Spirit was leading you this way and that it was the truth? Do you think the Holy Spirit is currently leading you to believe in the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” and that THAT is the truth?

Yes, the Holy Spirit is our teacher: Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ref: Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Once I am born of the spirit of life from the dead spirit that I inherited from Adam, I am in fact born again.

If I am born again, and have life, can I again become dead?

As in:Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

The old man dies and I am made into a new man: Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

I am a new creature in Christ because I have life gifted me by Jesus, by His works and none of my own.

But because I have life, I want to rather than have to love my neighbor.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I am born of that incorruptible seed, which is in Jesus and will never die.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Lampo]

Why don’t you prove that he is not.

I do believe the burden is on him. If I make a claim, it is up to me to provide the evidence or proof of the claim.

Example: I say, “All Protestants are possessed by the Devil. Now you prove that I’m wrong.”
(I don’t believe this BTW)

 

[Lampo]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is our teacher:

So the Holy Spirit led you to a lie? Is the Holy Spirit leading you to a lie now?

 

[look3467]

Now you answer me these questions: Why was St. Paul working out his salvation in fear and trembling if he had absolute assurance? What was he fearing and why was he trembling?>>>Lampo

Working out means just that, something that is already within being worked out.

When we come to understand Gods assurances of our salvation we come into a new respect for His love which is translated fear.

Trembling is the fear (actual) of offending God.

It is easy to misunderstand fear and trembling without truly understanding what God really means.

Remember that the Apostles were at the beginnings of a new gospel foreign to what was the norm for thousand of years and had to be dealt with child like understandings of a people who had rigid understandings of the laws given by Moses.

A newborn Christian can only be fed the milk of the word, as like a new born babe, but as it grows, than the meat of the word can be digested.

A new found respect for God comes with a desire to please God for His unmerited favor in His love for us that we want to make sure we do our best to live right.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

So the Holy Spirit led you to a lie? Is the Holy Spirit leading you to a lie now?>>>Lampo

Bt your words I am condemned by not being of the same view as you.

Where I condemn you not, but rather present my views for your judgment.

The Holy Spirit leads me to believe that God is the lover of the whole world as is His creation and as He has given His Son for a Ransom of it.

He teaches me that God looks at the heart and not at the outside of a person, therefore, if the heart is not right with God, then “mission control, we have a problem”.

I have no heart problem for the Holy Spirit leads me to as promised.

Peace>>>AJ