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Cinette
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*Oh Dokimas you are a most unusual person - you take one step forward and two steps back. One minute I say "By Jove he’s got it!! and then…
What is going on?
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If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?
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What is going on?
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Cinette
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Cinette
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benedictus2
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You’re sidestepping here again.
What do you think she meant by the term Lord? Who is this Lord for Elizabeth?
You must have some idea since you said that she did not know He was God. So what was this Lord for her then?
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rev_kevin
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Well in Luke 1:41 it says, "At the sound of Mary’s greeting, Elizabeth’s child leaped within her, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." Then in 43 Elizabeth says, “What an honor this is, that the mother of my Lord should visit me!”
Now seeing that in 41 she was already filled with the Holy Spirit, I see no reason that in 43 she would not be filled with the Holy Spirit and if one is filled with the Holy Spirit then one certainly is inspired by they Holy Spirit. So Yes I would say Elizabeth was inspired by the Holy Spirit to say that.
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PRmerger
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'zactly!
And who do you think the Holy Spirit means when He directs Elizabeth to say that Mary is the Mother of MY LORD? Do you think the Holy Spirit is inspiring Elizabeth to proclaim that Jesus is “LORD” but not God?
Now, perhaps it’s true that Elizabeth did not understand what she was proclaiming; nevertheless, it was the Holy Spirit that inspired her to say this, and, really, do you think that the HS meant anything other than Mary is the MOTHER OF MY LORD, WHO IS GOD?
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Cinette
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*Well stated! 'zactly!'zactly!
And who do you think the Holy Spirit means when He directs Elizabeth to say that Mary is the Mother of MY LORD? Do you think the Holy Spirit is inspiring Elizabeth to proclaim that Jesus is “LORD” but not God?
Now, perhaps it’s true that Elizabeth did not understand what she was proclaiming; nevertheless, it was the Holy Spirit that inspired her to say this, and, really, do you think that the HS meant anything other than Mary is the MOTHER OF MY LORD, WHO IS GOD?
Gosh it has taken several hundred posts to say this.
Now that we have established what the Holy Spirit inspired Elizabeth to say…who do people say Jesus Christ is?
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benedictus2
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I think both Rev Kevin and Dokimas should really ruminate on that one before replying.'zactly!
And who do you think the Holy Spirit means when He directs Elizabeth to say that Mary is the Mother of MY LORD? Do you think the Holy Spirit is inspiring Elizabeth to proclaim that Jesus is “LORD” but not God?
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rev_kevin
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No I don’t think that the HS meant anything other than Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD. But I don’t think Elizabeth knew that Jesus was also God reguardless of what the HS inspired her to say. All they knew was that there was only on true God. To think otherwise would mean they believed in another God besides the one true God. We must also remember the word Lord has other meanings besides God. Now knowing that God sent his Son, who they would consider to be a prince, the word Lord would be a proper response. Much like seeing the Kings son, the prince, they would call him My Lord, a title that would be used for royality.'zactly!
And who do you think the Holy Spirit means when He directs Elizabeth to say that Mary is the Mother of MY LORD? Do you think the Holy Spirit is inspiring Elizabeth to proclaim that Jesus is “LORD” but not God?
Now, perhaps it’s true that Elizabeth did not understand what she was proclaiming; nevertheless, it was the Holy Spirit that inspired her to say this, and, really, do you think that the HS meant anything other than Mary is the MOTHER OF MY LORD, WHO IS GOD?
The word Lord has many meanings besides God. Its one haveing power and authority over others, a master, chief or a ruler.
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adrift
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For thirty years she lived with Jesus. At the wedding at Cana she asked for His help. She told the waiters to do what he tells you. What do you think she expected? Do you really believe that in those thirty years she didn’t know who Jesus was? Doesn’t her request at the wedding indicate differently?
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Cinette
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*One must consider the context in which Lord was said. The Jews were expecting a Messiah. Elizabeth must have had some understanding because firstly she was prepared for what was happening in her life and when the child within her leapt when Mary arrived she was inspired to say what she said and it is possible she had a good idea what was taking place. Remember the words of Mary after that (the Magnificat) they were said to Elizabeth. One would not talk like to someone who had no idea what one is talking about.
So I think it safe to say that Elizabeth was not ignorant of what was going on.
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benedictus2
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The verse does not say that the Holy Spirit “inspired Elizabeth to say this”.
What it does say is that she was** filled with the Holy Spirit**. Now, isn’t the Holy Spirit the Spirit of Truth? Do you think that having been filled with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit would make her declare this truth while at the same time withholding the knowledge of this truth from her?
We could argue that way about those who were not “filled with the Holy Spirit”. Perhaps before she was filled with the Holy Spirit that argument will hold, but not after she has been filled with the Holy Spirit.
That may be true for us, but as Elvis wrote before the term in Aramaic was Maryah - Lord God which in Greek was simply translated as Lord.
That is true. But what we are sorting out here is what the Lord meant in that precise moment in time as spoken by that exact figure in the NT.
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Cinette
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Reuben_J
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rev kevin:
If the Holy Spirit inspired her then what she said is the truth. How can that not be? It is preposterous to say that the Holy Spirit did not know what he is talking about. If she said ‘the Mother of God’ then that’s about what it means – the Mother of God.
It is not what the Jews believed; it is what she said as inspired by the Holy Spirit. If the Jews or Elizabeth did not believe in the Trinity, then all the more it makes sense for the Holy Spirit to tell them.
Granted, the Lord could mean king or people of royalty but it does not matter because that’s what we call Jesus too. He is King, he is Lord and he is the Messiah. We only know what these terms mean and they are definitely not human king, lord and messiah.
Lk1:43 is a strong case for the litany of Mary the Mother of God and when we say so, we are only echoing Elizabeth – the Biblical figure who was filled with the Holy Spirit who exclaimed the truth of the incarnation.
This is a very weak argument from you.
If the Holy Spirit inspired her then what she said is the truth. How can that not be? It is preposterous to say that the Holy Spirit did not know what he is talking about. If she said ‘the Mother of God’ then that’s about what it means – the Mother of God.
It is not what the Jews believed; it is what she said as inspired by the Holy Spirit. If the Jews or Elizabeth did not believe in the Trinity, then all the more it makes sense for the Holy Spirit to tell them.
Granted, the Lord could mean king or people of royalty but it does not matter because that’s what we call Jesus too. He is King, he is Lord and he is the Messiah. We only know what these terms mean and they are definitely not human king, lord and messiah.
Lk1:43 is a strong case for the litany of Mary the Mother of God and when we say so, we are only echoing Elizabeth – the Biblical figure who was filled with the Holy Spirit who exclaimed the truth of the incarnation.
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Cinette
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*Jesus is also the cornerstone, the alpha and the omega and a dozen other things… but above all he is God, our Creator.
Jesus is the Word made Flesh, the second person of the Blessed Trinity.
Are we going to quibble about that? Of course not!
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agapewarrior
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Well… I stumbled upon this thread and I don’t think of myself as particularly great of understanding. I’m not a genius, but it’s rather obvious that Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus Christ. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then the word became flesh and dwelt among us. That’s easy enough to understand that Mary was the woman who was entrusted with the delivery of our Lord and saviour. However, I believe that the significance ends there. Mary is not the saviour, nor is she God, nor did she desire to be anything more than a good godly woman. I have no doubt in my mind that her humbleness would have her rather ashamed at the focus that has been devoted to her instead of the true saviour of our faith. When examining our faith, doctrine, and history, all too often we allow ourselves to lose sight of God’s goodness and love for all of us. As I said before, I’m not a genius, but these facts seem very plain to me.
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JustaServant
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I find non-Catholics focus on Mary far more than Catholics.
Nowhere in Catholic teaching is there anything that directs Catholics to worship Mary. Catholics do not ‘worship’ Mary, we do however venerate her.
Venerate means To regard with respect, reverence, and heartfelt deference.One of the 10 Commandments is “Honor your Father and your Mother.” One honors their father and mother and respects them. Catholics do so for their parents, and for the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Worship means the reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or sacred object, which we do not accord to our parents.We pray “to” Mary in the old sense of the word. In Elizabethan English they would say "I pray thee…… It is a pleading to a person of dignity.
The Hail Mary says “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you! Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus! Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.”
We are first “praying the scriptures”, and second, we are asking Mary to pray for us to the Lord even as I might ask a living Christian to do. For “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
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Cinette
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*Yes you are not a genius and it is evidenced by the fact that you make such statements that “…Mary was the woman who was entrusted with the delivery of our Lord and saviour. However, I believe that the significance ends there. Mary is not the saviour, nor is she God, nor did she desire to be anything more than a good godly woman.”
I don’t know anybody who believes what you have stated. Do you?
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agapewarrior
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I guess I have to apologize that my relationship with Jesus focuses on Jesus. I’m strangely Christ-oriented like that 
Edit: Very selfish of me I suppose to rely on Him alone…
Double Edit [extended version]: Do I frown upon people beseeching Mary to lobby for their prayers? No. I simply find it more convenient to go straight to Jesus with my requests. Mary deserves respect, but as I said before, her spiritual signifigance in Christianity doesn’t elevate her above any other woman of God, nor would it be her wish to be placed upon a pedestal. Of course she would deliver any of your prayers to the Son because she IS a good godly woman, but Jesus cares for us much more than we can comprehend. Also, I am absolutely certain she is not bored if you think you’re honoring her with something to do
Edit: Very selfish of me I suppose to rely on Him alone…
Double Edit [extended version]: Do I frown upon people beseeching Mary to lobby for their prayers? No. I simply find it more convenient to go straight to Jesus with my requests. Mary deserves respect, but as I said before, her spiritual signifigance in Christianity doesn’t elevate her above any other woman of God, nor would it be her wish to be placed upon a pedestal. Of course she would deliver any of your prayers to the Son because she IS a good godly woman, but Jesus cares for us much more than we can comprehend. Also, I am absolutely certain she is not bored if you think you’re honoring her with something to do
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agapewarrior
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Oh… and as for you. I love you regardless.
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