Illegal immigrants are first 'mothers and fathers, sons and daughters,' says Archbishop Gomez

[Blacksword]

Albeit, you will be able to find random stories posted on line of the brutality of law enforcement- and yes, there have been raids on work places, and deportations, nonetheless, it is a matter of Congressional record how Bush, Lindsey Graham & Co. and the Dems tried to pass amnesty about three years ago. Was it 2007? I won’t even bother with a link (I’ll only be accused of posting a biased news source…) Americans were told by their President they were xenophobes and racists - Bush’s quotes were in all the major news sources…nonetheless, the phone calls were so numerous they shut down the Senate switchboard during the day of the debate. Senator DeMint was the one who called for the measure to be dropped.

Sorry, but I have to when I hear comments that we, the World’s SuperPower, cannot close our borders! It’s not that we cannot - it is simply not the will of the powers-that-be who are in charge of the group on the Hill. To close the borders would be contrary to their agenda.

And I have to laugh when people maintain that it is so possible to do this when they have no clue as to how the system works and the colossal cost and effort that this would entail. If you’re so knowledgeable, please explain, with specifics, how this would be accomplished, and provide estimates of the annual federal appropriations and staffing that it would involve.

 

[PaulinVA]

I also disagree with they are ‘stealing’ services. We are discussing social programs, and while they can be taken advantage of, accepting help is not strictly defined as stealing.

Not strickly defined as stealing? Just loosely?

The issue of taxes, unless wages are earned under a sub-contractor status, are the responsibility of the employer. Also consider, if we made immigration, or even a work status, easier to be achieved how many would gladly pay taxes?

Why are you putting the burden back on the host country? If you are not in the country legally, you can not legally pay taxes on your wages, can you? You pay your taxes, your employer simply withholds taxes on your behalf.

Since you find it necessary to repeat the same question I’ll respond to it by saying, ‘yes, they should follow the laws of the host country but, the host country shouldn’t have laws specifically designed to keep immigrants out, especially based on their ability to pay, or not.’

I believe the Church says that we have the right to protect our borders and that immigration policy can do that.

Some will stand on the ‘law’ when it comes to immigration reform, however the same people will argue the law allowing abortion needs to be changed. Both issues affect a quality of life and both issues are addressed by God.

Please don’t confuse the immigration issue with abortion. They are really not similar at all.

I am, as are most Americans, the descendent of immigrants. My grandfather was born in Ireland. I am fully aware of that. However, I believe that immigrants should follow our laws. Saying that a law is not just to you and then breaking it is not being a good immigrant. It is not being polite to your host country. It is stealing something (the permission to live in our country) that has not been offered to you.

 

[Blacksword]

Not strickly defined as stealing? Just loosely?

Why are you putting the burden back on the host country? If you are not in the country legally, you can not legally pay taxes on your wages, can you? You pay your taxes, your employer simply withholds taxes on your behalf.

I believe the Church says that we have the right to protect our borders and that immigration policy can do that.

Please don’t confuse the immigration issue with abortion. They are really not similar at all.

I am, as are most Americans, the descendent of immigrants. My grandfather was born in Ireland. I am fully aware of that. However, I believe that immigrants should follow our laws. Saying that a law is not just to you and then breaking it is not being a good immigrant. It is not being polite to your host country. It is stealing something (the permission to live in our country) that has not been offered to you.

Just a note: again, immigrantsdo pay taxes. Many file under ITIN numbers obtained from the IRS, many more file under valid SSN’s they obtained when here in authorized status and have since fallen out of status. The IRS happily accepts their returns I assure you! The SSA has around $7 billion a year paid into it by unauthorized workers for instance.

 

[pnewton]

Archbishop Gomez is basically saying that they are justified in coming here illegally because they are fathers and mothers trying to provide a better life for their children.

That is absolutely not what he said. Read the article again. He never said anything about the action being justified.

Following that same logic, is it then okay, in the Church’s eyes, for me to embezzle money from my employer to pay for my kids’ college education, to give them a better life?

Again, that moral principle does not apply. It only applies when the action is always an objective evil.

 

[maryjk]

Just a note: again, immigrantsdo pay taxes. Many file under ITIN numbers obtained from the IRS, many more file under valid SSN’s they obtained when here in authorized status and have since fallen out of status. The IRS happily accepts their returns I assure you! The SSA has around $7 billion a year paid into it by unauthorized workers for instance.

SOME illegal aliens pay taxes. Many don’t.

 

[pnewton]

I am all for the responsibility to the host nation being enforced, secure borders and obeying the law. I also understand, but do not agree, with the idea of jobs being stolen, bias toward immigrants existing and quotas. However, there are some of the arguments being used that are false. In the issue of immigration, there is a great deal of latitude of opinion, but let us not forget that there are boundaries on both sides, outside which we stray from Christianity, Catholicism, logic, facts or moral theology.

 

[Nick_Fuga]

I believe that all illegal immigrants deserve the same as the rest of us get.Our health care and most important our freedom to practice our religion. Some people do not see these immigrants as people of our country so they shouldn’t be provided with what we have. They should be welcomed and brought through the proper channels so as to live a better life.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I believe that all illegal immigrants deserve the same as the rest of us get.Our health care and most important our freedom to practice our religion. Some people do not see these immigrants as people of our country so they shouldn’t be provided with what we have. They should be welcomed and brought through the proper channels so as to live a better life.

How Christian of you! I agree!

 

[Elizabeth502]

^ Then why stop there? Why not invite the world here, particularly those who cannot get here on their own accord because of inconvenient oceans and not happening to own a boat? There are millions all over the globe suffering worse conditions than those who are currently here exited from. If people were truly for “justice,” they would be for illegal immigration on a massive, global scale – instead of winking and approving of those who were lucky enough to make it here due to fortunate geography, and then patting themselves on the back for supposedly being so good-hearted. There are millions of ‘mothers and fathers, sons and daughters’ in Africa, Haiti, Indonesia, Southeast Asia, Burma, various other places who have no one to advocate for them, to invite them here by virtue of negligent enforcement, and transport them here. Why not invite about 5 billion people here to consume every existing resource, so that we, also, will become a Third World country?

I understand the Justice issue and am not arguing against it; I just find it hypocritical to approve of piecemeal justice and call it Gospel. That’s not advocacy justice; it’s passive approval. The illegal immigrants who are here are not in any objective way more deserving of relief from poverty & suffering than those further away are, who are similarly hampered by bureaucratic immigration laws, and if trying to come here legally, will be halted by quota categories.

Or wait; here’s a concept: Maybe the U.S. can initiate policies which focus on relief of suffering (economic development, infrastructure aid, government consultants) in those very countries instead of importing the globe to the U.S.?
:doh2:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

^ Then why stop there? Why not invite the world here, particularly those who cannot get here on their own accord because of inconvenient oceans and not happening to own a boat? There are millions all over the globe suffering worse conditions than those who are currently here exited from. If people were truly for “justice,” they would be for illegal immigration on a massive, global scale – instead of winking and approving of those who were lucky enough to make it here due to fortunate geography, and then patting themselves on the back for supposedly being so good-hearted. There are millions of ‘mothers and fathers, sons and daughters’ in Africa, Haiti, Indonesia, Southeast Asia, Burma, various other places who have no one to advocate for them, to invite them here by virtue of negligent enforcement, and transport them here. Why not invite about 5 billion people here to consume every existing resource, so that we, also, will become a Third World country?

I understand the Justice issue and am not arguing against it; I just find it hypocritical to approve of piecemeal justice and call it Gospel. That’s not advocacy justice; it’s passive approval. The illegal immigrants who are here are not in any objective way more deserving of relief from poverty & suffering than those further away are, who are similarly hampered by bureaucratic immigration laws, and if trying to come here legally, will be halted by quota categories.

Or wait; here’s a concept: Maybe the U.S. can initiate policies which focus on relief of suffering (economic development, infrastructure aid, government consultants) in those very countries instead of importing the globe to the U.S.?
:doh2:

I have no problems with any immigrant. A immigrant is a person that has already entered the country.

Are we weighing immigration by how it would affect us, more specifically of what we might have to share?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I share with PaulinVA my displeasure with ProdigalSon’s off-topic responses.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I share with PaulinVA my displeasure with ProdigalSon’s off-topic responses.

As the op of this thread, I kindly ask that you show me where I have gone ‘off topic’.

 

[Tigg]

I understand the Justice issue and am not arguing against it; I just find it hypocritical to approve of piecemeal justice and call it Gospel. That’s not advocacy justice; it’s passive approval. The illegal immigrants who are here are not in any objective way more deserving of relief from poverty & suffering than those further away are, who are similarly hampered by bureaucratic immigration laws, and if trying to come here legally, will be halted by quota categories.

As always, your common sense and reason should make us think, Elizabeth. Or make us wonder where the justice is for the poor even closer to home - you know, the blacks who have been thrust into even greater poverty due to job loss to illegal workers, or the elderly who are finding it increasingly difficult to meet rising costs of food, meds and energy bills. What about the poorest of the poor in Appalachia? Why do people think we have no poverty in America?

 

[Tigg]

I believe that all illegal immigrants deserve the same as the rest of us get.Our health care …

Some people do not see these immigrants as people of our country so they shouldn’t be provided with what we have. They should be welcomed and brought through the proper channels so as to live a better life.

I’m sorry, but this is extreme naivety. Do you not read the analysis that indicate that seniors who are most ill equipped to pay for it will be the ones to suffer the most because of rationed healthcare and increased premiums? Or perhaps you would like to address the fact that at least since 2004, it has been reported that some medical facilities and hospitals all over the country have gone bankrupt due to the care of illegal aliens.

There is no such thing as free healthcare. There are no freebies, period. The U. S. Treasury is not a well which has no bottom, and my opportunity to charitably help the poor is being hampered by increasing taxes and the state of the economy in a country which is going broke.

and most important our freedom to practice our religion.

Since the article in the OP seems to mainly be addressing those illegal persons from Mexico, which is predominantly a Catholic country, I don’t understand your point. I have heard of persecutions in certain Latin American countries, but nothing compared to the 100,000 Christians who lost their lives last year in the Middle East for practicing their religion. Where is the Catholic outrage over that……may God bless those martyrs for their faith.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Why do people think we have no poverty in America?

This myth (and this great injustice) began to be perpretated in the 1980’s, when illegal immigration became The Darling of the political left, which then began an advocacy movement in full force, and which also began dismissing as morally unimportant any poverty that was not Left Hemisphere (pun intended) and below our southern border. That assumption was essentially permanently built into “preferences” language in ultra-left causes and even private schools. (You’re really deserving if you’re an undocumented from Latin America specifically, you’re kind of deserving if you’re black and poor, you’re completely undeserving if you’re white and poor.) It’s race and ethnicity politics that masquerades as “justice.”

Of course, this is nothing new. The Left has always sanctified its own causes. I say this as someone who has come from being raised in the Left, and in certain other regards has a certain respect for some of the Left’s platform, but very little respect for how they arrive at that platform – too often – and how they execute it (pun again intended), with brutality against other injustices.

There are certain private and public colleges, for example, in which the applicant with the greatest admission advantage will be one who is an undocumented student, even if not as academically qualified as other applicants. In the highly competitive-for-admission environment of college admissions now, this is a significant advantage – when one looks at undergraduate admissions rates of anywhere between 22% and 5% for the best colleges and universities.

 

[PaulinVA]

I have no problems with any immigrant. A immigrant is a person that has already entered the country.

You don’t believe these immigrants have any person responsibility to follow the host country laws related to immigration? I don’t understand your statement.

Are we weighing immigration by how it would affect us, more specifically of what we might have to share?

Is this a trick question?

 

[pnewton]

You don’t believe these immigrants have any person responsibility to follow the host country laws related to immigration?

They have an obligation to follow the law to the extent that they are able, as do we all. The Church has never denied this. What they do recognize is that sometimes, this is more easily said than done, especially if the law is unjust, as the USCCB claims. In this particular release, none of this is denied. However, Catholics do not need to be judgmental of these people for the decisions they made. We do not walk in their shoes. Therefore, we must first look at them with the dignity that they are due. That is all AB Gomez is saying. I do not really understand the opposition to this.

 

[PaulinVA]

They have an obligation to follow the law to the extent that they are able, as do we all. The Church has never denied this. What they do recognize is that sometimes, this is more easily said than done.

Staying where you are is harder than illegally crossing a border and living without permission in a foreign country?

However, Catholics do not need to be judgmental of these people for the decisions they made. We do not walk in their shoes.

This is pure and simple relativism.

Therefore, we must first look at them with the dignity that they are due. That is all AB Gomez is saying. I do not really understand the opposition to this.

Are you saying that treating them with dignity can not involve inviting them to leave this country? Somehow treating illegal immigrants with dignity means that we encourage them to break our laws? Can any man live with dignity if he knows he is one false move away from being deported?

 

[pnewton]

This is pure and simple relativism.

Not true, not by a long shot. What I say has nothing to do with moral relativism. There is a tendancy to keep making this issue about sin (of others, of course). Judge not lest you be judged is a Jesus principle. In case you did not know, Jesus did not teach moral relativism.

Are you saying that treating them with dignity can not involve inviting them to leave this country?

Yes, it can be done. However, the fact that AB Gomez is drawing fire for talking about the dignity of the illegal immigrant tells me that many Catholics are not doing it. Otherwise, why is this even an issue? What is the objection to trying to understand others as more than an “illegal”? Yet here we have people who are Catholic arguing against the statement. Conservative Catholics in America are real big on “Amen!” when our Bishops speak out on abortion or gay marriage, but let the topic stray to a non- Republican bullet point like capital punishment or immigration, suddenly we question them and assert our right to disagreement.

Yes, Bishop Gomez is correct. These people are defined by far more than just being an “illegal”. Until we accept this, we reject the Christ that is in them. Once we understand this, then we can agree or not with deportation, fences and quotas.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not true, not by a long shot. What I say has nothing to do with moral relativism. There is a tendancy to keep making this issue about sin (of others, of course). Judge not lest you be judged is a Jesus principle. In case you did not know, Jesus did not teach moral relativism.
Yes, it can be done. However, the fact that AB Gomez is drawing fire for talking about the dignity of the illegal immigrant tells me that many Catholics are not doing it. Otherwise, why is this even an issue? What is the objection to trying to understand others as more than an “illegal”? Yet here we have people who are Catholic arguing against the statement. Conservative Catholics in America are real big on “Amen!” when our Bishops speak out on abortion or gay marriage, but let the topic stray to a non- Republican bullet point like capital punishment or immigration, suddenly we question them and assert our right to disagreement.

Yes, Bishop Gomez is correct. These people are defined by far more than just being an “illegal”. Until we accept this, we reject the Christ that is in them. Once we understand this, then we can agree or not with deportation, fences and quotas.

:clapping: