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Ag_not
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Lots and Lots of scripture there. Wouldn’t you agree 
I'm getting tired of hearing from Protestants that we worship Mary and the saints!
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RobHom
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Lots and Lots of scripture there. Wouldn’t you agree
Are you SURE you’re really not a Catholic, yet??You did well:thumbsup:
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Ag_not
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Uh Uh !!! I’m still a bit worried about what happens when the Holy Water hits my skin
You did well:thumbsup:
No, it’s just part of my learning - when I read someone say tthere is no scripture for a belief - then I have to go look. If I kind none, they’re right. If I find some, they’re wrong. This then makes me look more into the original issue, in this case intercessionary prayers, and I think, well, there’s something in it after all as it is, despite what some people think, scriptural, AND consistent with church teaching and tradition.
So I’m happy. 
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RobGentner
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**Hi Yeshaul!, Nice to meet you! :tiphat: I know that some of the other heretics are waiting to see what I say to you! I am glad you decided to tell us your opinions. They really help us learn our mistakes. Thanks!**The Bible defines blasphemy as anything that misrepresents or distorts the character and/or the purposes of God. **No it doesn’t! Wrong!! That is only your personal opinion!**In several places the Lord chastises Israel for her behavior as blaspheming His Holy Name. I am glad He did, They probably deserved it! Your point? It is nice that you have a opinion. Ever hear the old saying “Keep your opinions to yourself?” Some people look stupid when they say something and it isn’t true, it is just their distorted opinion. That makes me laugh. Does it you also? The nerve! Oh, the bible doesn’t defind blasphemy, a dictionary does. I know … it was your opinion! Please don’t make up stuff, it won’t work here. The right- thinking protestants (boy, that is an oximoron!) will also correct you.
You won’t find it because prayers offered to anyone other than God are ALWAYS considered blasphemous and idolatrous.There you go off half-cocked again! That my friend is only your opinion. God’s church said it is OK so guess what. It is fine to do that! Boy, like all I have to do is teach heretics what is correct all day!
- Where or where in Scripture (and not the CCC) does it EVER describe, the praying to anyone or anything else other than to the Holy One, blessed be He, as anything other than idolatry or blasphemy?!** I think I understand what you were trying to say no matter how poorly. Can I restate your question as: Where in the Bible does it say you commit blasphemy if you pray to anyone or Idol? Is that about what you were trying to ask? if not restate the question yourself. But the answer to that question as I restated it is:
Many places! and if you read the Bible you should know that! Google it! :coffeeread: Your point?**
I hear most Catholics (and I’m around a lot of them) offering more thanks to Mary and prayers to saints rather than to the Lord. You see more statues (ick) of Mary and saints than of Jesus (as if anyone really knows what these people looked like anyway). **Like it matters? I am surprised you didn’t play the IDOL card. You might as well! **
- Does the Catholic church worship Mary and/or the saints? Well, it can protest all it wants to that it doesn’t, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck…it’s a duck.
** That is why I like you. I have used that exact example and a dictionary when explaining why all **protestants are heretics! I like you! You are my kind of person! But you are wrong!!! If so you WORSHIP your mother . The problem is Only in your distorted opinion does it look like a duck! Mary is a “CREATURE, one above all men because of her special obedience to God’s desire for her to be the Mother of Jesus but still only a woman, only a Creation. I will type this slowly so you can finally understand. " YOU CAN’T’ WORSHIP CREATURES”.
Someone once said let me take a look at your checkbook register and I’ll tell you who your god is. **
Some people do desire Money more than God.Some people rather listen to words written in a bunch of books, that my church assembled for litergical use that they “borrowed” That is OK except they distort the words, interpet that which only the church they were written for and to should be allowed to do. They use the Bible to attack the church they stole it from, with the “god” they made from GOD’s words. **I say notice how many prayers you direct to Mary and/or saints and I’ll tell you who you really worship despite what your prostestations and vocabulary (ie: veneration vs. adoration) say. Those are just words, nomenclature, to justify idolatry and spiritual adultery.**Great point! Boy you opened my eyes! :doh2: Nom I am joking I knew that already! It works we can wordhip all our idols and pray to all the gods, and until you noticed we got away with it. :extrahappy: The nerve of some people. I member of a counterfit religion, a heretic with the arrogance to approace a member oif the true and only religion with such garbage. If I didn’t love youI would tell you what I actually thought of your opinion. But that might violate the TOS so :whacky: **
For instance, I talked to a friend of mine recently who is a Catholic, when I told her that I had prayed to God to show me where something I had lost of hers that was of great sentimental value to her. I told her that God literally gave me a vision of where it was and it was exactly there when I looked. I gave thanks to God. **many examples in both our bibles, Our real one and your rewritten distorted version, where people pray to other people besides God himself. Do your research. Don’t just say things that are false! **
Her response: "My mother always prayed to St. Anthony since he’s the patron saint of lost items."wasn’t she sweet?
My response: “Well, I go straight to his boss because the Bible says I can in Christ.” ** And I say. Yea, and God better listen to what you want. You have that “magic” book that you think says you can control what He thinks and does!
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RobGentner
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**QUIZ TIME::While on trip in the wild jungles of Africa, Professor Smith woke up one morning and felt something in the pocket of his pajamas. It had a head and a tail, but no legs. When Smith got up he could feel it move inside of his pocket. However, Smith showed little concern and went about his morning activities. Why wasn’t he concerned?Uh Uh !!! I’m still a bit worried about what happens when the Holy Water hits my skin
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Ag I was reading your post and for some reason the old Johnny Cash song “Ring of Fire” jumped into my mind!
No, it’s just part of my learning - when I read someone say tthere is no scripture for a belief - then I have to go look. If I kind none, they’re right. If I find some, they’re wrong. This then makes me look more into the original issue, in this case intercessionary prayers, and I think, well, there’s something in it after all as it is, despite what some people think, scriptural, AND consistent with church teaching and tradition.
It was only a coin.
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Yeshualuver
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What you fail to understand is I could walk right up to the President and get a hearing, tell him my concerns and get him to do something if the President were MY FATHER!!! Jesus has told us we can call the Father our Daddy.
Rom 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba,Father."
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
Rom 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
“Abba” in Aramaic is “Poppa” or “Daddy.” What loving Daddy doesn’t want to hear what is on the minds of his children? According to Romans I have just as much right to walk into the throne room of grace and get a hearing as Jesus Christ does because I have been made righteous by Christ’s blood.
Yes, the prayers of a righteous man availeth much. Those who are born-again have had the righteousness of God imputed to them (2 Cor. 5:21, Heb. 10:14), therefore I can come boldly (read that again: BOLDLY) before the throne of grace because I have been declared righteous.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Yes, God clearly in Scripture says He will not hear the prayers of the wicked.
You are assuming they can hear us. I affirm the dead cannot. Yes, they may be in heaven but not in the capacity of intercessors. That is the job of Jesus Christ alone because He alone is God. What you propose of Mary and the saints is no less than blasphemy as they would have to be omniscient and omnipresent to hear all the prayers of all the Catholics all over the world. Human beings cannot do that, it would be blasphemous to suggest so, therefore I will not.
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RobHom
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I really don’t think you have anything to worry about…Uh Uh !!! I’m still a bit worried about what happens when the Holy Water hits my skin
At this link there is a rather detailed set of writings regarding “intercessory prayer” along with scriptural justifications. You might find it rather interesting… and others may as well.No, it’s just part of my learning - when I read someone say tthere is no scripture for a belief - then I have to go look. If I kind none, they’re right. If I find some, they’re wrong. This then makes me look more into the original issue, in this case intercessionary prayers, and I think, well, there’s something in it after all as it is, despite what some people think, scriptural, AND consistent with church teaching and tradition.
newadvent.org/cathen/08070a.htm
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Yeshualuver
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Read your last verse again without adding the non-Biblical portion.
1Ti 2:5 ** For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus**,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
1Ti 2:7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle–I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying–a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
None of those verses prove your point. Nowhere are we taught in the Scriptures that the dead intercede for the living.
You still haven’t proven that prayers addressed to anyone other than God are anything other than pure unadulterated blasphemy.
Your verse in 1 Tim 2:1 is taken out of context. Notice the context
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 ** who desires all men to be saved **and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
We are to pray TO God for all those in authority over us on earth so that we may live quiet, peacable lives and that they may be saved. Where do you get praying to the saints is okay from this verse?
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Yeshualuver
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BTW: Jesus converses with the deceased Moses and Elijah because He is God and is telling them what will happen.
Jesus is NOT praying to Moses and Elijah. Big difference!
Jesus is NOT praying to Moses and Elijah. Big difference!
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Yeshualuver
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Ag-not
Your Daniel references don’t work either. The verses in context are clearly speaking of angels as qualified by the word עיר or “watcher”. Nevertheless, it still doesn’t speak of praying to angels, in fact angels are forbidden even our bowing down to them in reverence.
Your Daniel references don’t work either. The verses in context are clearly speaking of angels as qualified by the word עיר or “watcher”. Nevertheless, it still doesn’t speak of praying to angels, in fact angels are forbidden even our bowing down to them in reverence.
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RobHom
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Yeshualuver, I might suggest that you click on that link in my last post…# 743…there you will find Biblical justifications for intercessory prayer. You may not like it, and may not even agree with it after you read it…but its what it is, and its proper.
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Yeshualuver
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Rob,Yeshualuver, I might suggest that you click on that link in my last post…# 743…there you will find Biblical justifications for intercessory prayer. You may not like it, and may not even agree with it after you read it…but its what it is, and its proper.
Thank you for the article. But once again, I ask you to show me from Scripture, not Catholic articles, where prayers were ever offered to anyone else other than God which were not considered blasphemous or idolatrous.
Just download e-sword and look up prayers, prayer, pray in the concordance and do a word study in the Hebrew and Greek.
The distinction between mediation and intercessor in that article are merely the author’s distinctions and not those of the Bible.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and **one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human, **1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, revealing God’s purpose at his appointed time.
Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
μεσίτης
mesitēs
Thayer Definition:
- one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant
- a medium of communication, arbitrator
Part of Speech: noun masculine
Heb 7:26 For it is indeed fitting for us to have such a high priest: holy, innocent, undefiled, separate from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Intercession
ἐντυγχάνω
entugchanō
Thayer Definition:
- to light upon a person or a thing, fall in with, hit upon, a person or a thing
- to go to or meet a person, especially for the purpose of conversation, consultation, or supplication
- to pray, entreat
- make intercession for any one
Part of Speech: verb
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Peter_J
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That’s very ironic, actually, because of something that happened to St. Francis of Assisi in his younger days (St. Anthony was a follower of St. Francis, you know) …
The military victories of Count Walter of Brienne revived Francis’ desire for knighthood. Under Brienne’s command, he hoped to win his favor and become a knight. On his way to join Brienne, Francis stopped in Spoleto and heard the shocking news of his death. Overcome by depression, his malaria returned.
One night a mysterious voice asked him, “Who do you think can best reward you, the Master or the servant?” Francis Answered, “The Master.” The voice continued, “Why do you leave the Master for the servant?” Francis realized the servant was Count Walter. He left Spoleto convinced God had spoken to him.
(wording taken from this blog)
By the way, Yeshualuver, has it occurred to you that people who criticize you for praying to God to find something, rather than asking St. Anthony, might not be accurately representing Catholic teachings? (Although it isn’t at all clear from what you said that your friend was criticizing you. Perhaps she was just sharing part of her own heritage?)
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Ag_not
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And the angel Raphael says: “When thou didst pray with tears . . . I offered thy prayer to the Lord” (Tobit 12:12)
I need to look at these quotations in greater depth. The point was made that there is absolutely NO scriptural evidence for intercession. I had a look and found tons.
The context issue is interesting - I have a feeling this will come down to interpretation.
I’m leaning very heavily towards needing an unbroken tradition to help with interpretation.
The information from early church fathers, some of whom where around at the time of the Apoltles themselves, seem like a good referrence point. Why? Well because we know that not everything Christ did or said is written down. (John) but it seems indisputable that the early christians asked the saints to interceed for them. And that is not out of kilter with the Scriptures, as far as I can see. My quest continues …
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Yeshualuver
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Ummm, I said Scripture.
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Peter_J
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Amen!
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Yeshualuver
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Then you misunderstood or I didn’t make myself clear. The point was that no prayers recorded in Scripture were ever directed to anyone other than God were considered anything other than blasphemous. The point being that prayers are to be directed to God only, not Mary or saints.
You would be better served to go back further than Rome for the answers. Go to Jerusalem to the Hebrew roots of the faith. Remember, all the writers of Scripture were Jews (w/ maybe one exception), they were Jewish men from a Jewish culture who were writing about a Jewish Lord. The context of our faith is found not in Rome or Antioch but in Jerusalem. Why look to a Greco-Roman interpretation of a Hebrew matrix? That doesn’t make sense.
How do you figure? By early I assume you mean first century and not beyond about 150 AD. After that Gnosticism creeps in through Origen, Ambrose and Augustine.
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RobHom
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Well, if you think its not “scripture”, then perhaps you might want to get a “real Bible” not the adulterated “almost Bible” you are apparently using. That people on your side of the fence decided to delete books from the Bible is your problem…not ours.
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LilyM
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Are you saying you’ve never, ever, gotten your mother or sibling to go WITH you to your father to discuss something, even if only because it helped YOU to have their support? Never ever asked another person, living or dead, for their prayers?
And are you saying that Daddy doesn’t LOVE to see his children helping each other when one needs something, and coming together to him about the needs of one?
As for ‘righteousness’ - this sort of overweening presumption of our salvation and righteousness is as big a blasphemy as anything we Catholics could dream of suggesting about Mary and the saints.
Christ tells us who is justified, saved and righteous - the publican who will not even lift his eyes up for shame, but begs for God’s mercy on his sins. Most definitely NOT the Pharisee who thanks God that he (or so he thinks) has none, in other words that his salvation and righteousness are already a done deal.
Doesn’t Paul call on us to work out our salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING? Doesn’t he tell us that, even with all his faith in Christ and his work on His behalf, which surely would make him ‘righteous’ and ‘saved’ if anything could - that he can still ‘be disqualified’ - in other words LOSE his salvation and BECOME unrighteous? Doesn’t he say ‘let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall’. What can be his meaning except that we cannot ever be 100% assured either of our righteousness or our salvation. We can be hopeful and confident and trusting, yes, but definitely not assured!
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RobGentner
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**
PeterJ,Why dDidn’t you ask what verse Yeshualuver go:t “Jesus has told us we can call the Father our Daddy**”.
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