Imigration

[a_cermak]

One of the things I find most annoying are that many (not all) of the people complaining in the most shrill manner about illegal immigration aren’t even that affected by it. Pew did a survey not too far back and determined that the less immigrants lived in a zipcode the more people from that zipcode disliked the idea of illegal immigrants. I believe the people along the border (Arizona, Texas, New Mexico) have legitimate issues as far as concerns about crime and the coyotes go. I know that Chicago is far more affected by immigration (illegal or otherwise) than Wisconsin, but you don’t hear Chicagoans complaining all that loudly (well we have a “patriots” group but they’re viewed as cranks that write into the paper).

I live right next to Cicero IL. Spanish is the majority language there. There are probably 9 native Spanish speakers there for every 1 native English speaker. I don’t see a problem however. There are Spanish language newspapers, TV and radio stations (as well as Korean, Polish and Chinese); go down Cermak Ave (alas not named for me but for our dear martyred mayor) and see Spanish language bankers, insurance brokers, grocers, butchers, bakeries, dentists, clothing stores… And who do you think owns these places? It’s largely the immigrants who live there. Recently a Spanish movie house opened (it was an empty theater for a long time) that shows Spanish language films. I fail to see how this impacts my right to speak English, or my neighbors’ right to speak Polish.

Fifty years ago Chicago had ethnic neighborhoods (it still has some) that were uniquely Irish, Polish, Greek, Ukrainian, Jewish, Italian… Today it has ethnic neighborhoods that are uniquely Southern Indian (Hindu), Pakistani, Russian Jewish, Mexican. I honestly don’t see a problem.

As far as border security, we wouldn’t have all these undocumented folks if we had a decent allowance for letting people in legally. Like an insta-check at the border and then just let them in if they’re not criminals.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I disagree. Economics is simply the interactions between individuals. The only legitimate role for government is to protect the participants from force and fraud.

This is a libertarian talking point but it is not taught by the Catholic Church. Here’s the teaching of the Church:

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

 

[wabrams]

a_cermak:

As far as border security, we wouldn’t have all these undocumented folks if we had a decent allowance for letting people in legally. Like an insta-check at the border and then just let them in if they’re not criminals.

How do you propose doing this insta-check system? It’s not like Mexico has a top notch criminal justice system like ours.

 

[MulusChristi]

LCMS_No_More:

This is a libertarian talking point but it is not taught by the Catholic Church. Here’s the teaching of the Church:

Greetings LCMS and Chris,
I think one could make a Catholic case for libertarianism, but it would be challenging. My point is that the US is not a purely capitalist nor socialist state, and we have to find solutions which fit with the melange of laws and programs which already exist.

As to a_cermak’s point about non-threatened people being worried, I don’e believe the poll. Also things have gotten to the point that EVERY state has an illegal immigration problem because the Federal government is doing NOTHING.

Here in California, we have major problems. Many criminals are illegals (larger than their proportion of the population) (and the media refuse to report this) and our health care system is imploding under the weight of people who are not contributing but still drawing benefits in emergency rooms.

 

[Ted_CharlotteNC]

I have a little different slant on this, if you will bear with me a moment. My fiance is immigrating here from the Philippines. We are going through the whole I-179F process. She is a college graduate that speaks 3 languages. She has many skills that will add to our community. We hope that we will be able to let her do volunteer work at the church or nursing home. And she goes to Mass every day, twice a day during Advent. And just because her country is not right next door to ours we are going through a process that will take over 7 months, assuming we dot every I and cross every T. And including all expenses it will cost in excess of US$4,000. And this is a real contributing person.

Am I bitter that our immediate neighbor can just walk right in?
No. But let’s just be consistent. Let’s have laws we can enforce.
Don’t say we should send them all back, it’s not possible. We can’t lock them up. We can’t deport them. And the only solution is to hit them in the wallet so they have to leave or contribute. The National Sales Tax will force many to tax taxes they don’t pay already.

Another tax that I thought of is at the consumer level. You pay a 15% surcharge if you don’t have a “Citizen Card”. This is a tax that helps offset the cost of un-insured illegals that go to emergency rooms, another cost we all have to pay for.

Is it cruel to tax them out of the country? No. They are here for a better life. And they can still have it. They should just start paying for it.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

MulusChristi:

Greetings LCMS and Chris,
I think one could make a Catholic case for libertarianism, but it would be challenging. My point is that the US is not a purely capitalist nor socialist state, and we have to find solutions which fit with the melange of laws and programs which already exist.

True. The US is close to what the Church actually says should be. I don’t see how a case for Catholic libertarianism is possible considering the Church’s refusal to accept “individualism” in the pursuit of capitalism (which is what libertarianism is all about!).

As to a_cermak’s point about non-threatened people being worried, I don’e believe the poll. Also things have gotten to the point that EVERY state has an illegal immigration problem because the Federal government is doing NOTHING.

Granted. But let’s look at it here in California. Who are the loudest voices kvetching about the “illegals?” It’s not people who live in Santa Ana, East Los Angeles or the East San Fernando Valley. It’s people who live in Anaheim Hills, Fullerton, Newport/Costa Mesa/Irvine, the West San Fernando Valley and the like. What do these places have in common? Santa Ana, East Los Angeles and the East SF Valley are all predominantly latino and working class. Anaheim Hills, Fullerton, Newport/Costa Mesa/Irvine, the West San Fernando Valley are predominantly white, upper-middle to upper class enclaves.

Here in California, we have major problems.

Aren’t they all Gray Davis’s fault?

Many criminals are illegals (larger than their proportion of the population) (and the media refuse to report this) and our health care system is imploding under the weight of people who are not contributing but still drawing benefits in emergency rooms.

A major part of the health care system having problems is that people who are uninsured (because they can’t get insured) are using ER’s as they primary care. I believe that if the compromise being worked on in the Senate write now becomes law that this will change quickly because people will be able to get medical insurance which will greatly ease the crowding in the ERs.

As to criminal undocumented immigrants, let them serve their term and outta here! You’ll get no argument from me.

 

[MulusChristi]

Greetings LCMS,
I’m havng too much fun with this, so I’ll probably have to sign off for the day and get some work done.

LCMS_No_More:

True. The US is close to what the Church actually says should be. I don’t see how a case for Catholic libertarianism is possible considering the Church’s refusal to accept “individualism” in the pursuit of capitalism (which is what libertarianism is all about!)…

The libertarianism I would want would rein back the government so that society could fill some of the vacuum thru moral suasion and shame. Voluntary community associations would fill more of the current civic needs. The country would look more like America in the 1800’s. But we are nowhere near that, so it is academic.

LCMS_No_More:

Granted. But let’s look at it here in California. Who are the loudest voices kvetching about the “illegals?” It’s not people who live in Santa Ana, East Los Angeles or the East San Fernando Valley. It’s people who live in Anaheim Hills, Fullerton, Newport/Costa Mesa/Irvine, the West San Fernando Valley and the like. What do these places have in common? Santa Ana, East Los Angeles and the East SF Valley are all predominantly latino and working class. Anaheim Hills, Fullerton, Newport/Costa Mesa/Irvine, the West San Fernando Valley are predominantly white, upper-middle to upper class enclaves.

This issue is being so underreported and reported with a slant by the mainstream media that I really have no interest in which parts of the state “feel” a certain way. Most people are forming opinions based on feeling and faulty data. I also suspect you are generalizing somewhat on this point.

LCMS_No_More:

Aren’t they all Gray Davis’s fault?

Yes!!! Sure glad we got a “Catholic” governor in there! Oh, wait, Gray was “Catholic” too.

LCMS_No_More:

A major part of the health care system having problems is that people who are uninsured (because they can’t get insured) are using ER’s as they primary care. I believe that if the compromise being worked on in the Senate write now becomes law that this will change quickly because people will be able to get medical insurance which will greatly ease the crowding in the ERs…

I wish you were correct, but I watched the amnesty of the '80s have no effect. This compromise is more of the same. The gutless politicians are just kicking this can down the road. Until we address the fact that our government is not enforcing its own laws and is refusing to protect its citizens, no progress will be made on this issue.

 

[MulusChristi]

Ted CharlotteNC:

Is it cruel to tax them out of the country? No. They are here for a better life. And they can still have it. They should just start paying for it.

My wife thought a very high tax on all money transferred to Mexico might be effective. It is an interesting idea, but I don’t think we’d ever get it passed and it might be unenforceable.

 

[sherlockian]

In a literal sense, Illegal Immigration is an invasion. Our Federal Government is abandoning its duty to the populace in an effort to appease the Illegals. Should it not be inverted? The Federal Government should renounce the “Rights of Illegals” to appease the citizenry not to abjure OUR RIGHTS to appease THE INVADERS. These are invaders. Why are they not killed or deported?

I would like it if someone could point to flaws or elaborate upoun this argument.

God Bless.

 

[ChrisR246]

ChrisR246:

I disagree. Economics is simply the interactions between individuals. The only legitimate role for government is to protect the participants from force and fraud.

LCMS_No_More:

This is a libertarian talking point but it is not taught by the Catholic Church. Here’s the teaching of the Church:

CCC:

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.” Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

I fail to see where this paragraph opposes my position. Libertarianism is not anarchy, but rather minarchy.There is no mention of government in this paragraph. The common good will be be more successfully promoted by voluntary, free interactions within community than through government force.

Libertarians will be quick to point out that the market can not meet all human needs. Relying on the government is not the only option.

Did you read the article on Subsidiarity in the recent issue of This Rock?

 

[ChrisR246]

LCMS_No_More:

The US is close to what the Church actually says should be.

I disagree. The idealized myth of the US might fit the description you quoted from the Catechism, and perhpas at one tiime the US fit that description, but no longer. Consider Piux XI in Quadragesimo Anno

1. As history abundantly proves, it is true that on account of changed conditions many things which were done by small associations in former times cannot be done now save by large associations. Still, that most weighty principle, which cannot be set aside or changed, remains fixed and unshaken in social philosophy: Just as it is gravely wrong to take from individuals what they can accomplish by their own initiative and industry and give it to the community, so also it is an injustice and at the same time a grave evil and disturbance of right order to assign to a greater and higher association what lesser and subordinate organizations can do. For every social activity ought of its very nature to furnish help to the members of the body social, and never destroy and absorb them.

And JPII in Centisimus Annus

1. The economy cannot be run in an institutional,
   juridical, or political vacuum: the state has its role to play,
   guaranteeing personal freedom, a stable currency, and efficient public services.Lack of stability, corruption, improper ways of growing rich, and speculation hinder development and social order. The state has to intervene when monopolies hinder development; in certain cases it can substitute its own services when certain sectors of business are too weak to render the services needed for the common good. Those interventions should be as brief as possible in order to avoid removing from society and business tasks that belong to them. The range of these interventions has expanded to the point of creating the so-called welfare state as a response to poverty and deprivation.Recent excesses and abuses—to the point that the welfare state has been dubbed the “social assistance state”—are the resultof an inadequate understanding of the role of the state. The “principle of subsidiarity” must be respected:"A community of a higher order should not interfere with the life of a community of a lower order, taking over its functions."In case of need it should, rather, support the smaller community and help to coordinate its activity with activities in the rest of society for the sake of the common good.Not doing thisleads to a loss of human energy, an increase of bureaucratic agencies, and an increase in costs.Needs are best understood by the real neighbor of those who are in need, and such needs often demand more than just material support, a deeper, personal support.Help is most effective when given in genuine fraternal support.

Certainly the trend over the last couple generations in the US to centralize power within the Federal government is not in keeping with these ideas.

 

[Viki59]

sherlockian:

In a literal sense, Illegal Immigration is an invasion. …These are invaders. Why are they not killed or deported?

I would like it if someone could point to flaws or elaborate upoun this argument.

God Bless.

That would lead to racial profiling and destruction of our civil rights. Everyone assumes my husband is illegal, but we paid $4000 to go to Juarez for his residency. I paid $3500 to bring my stepdaughter here legally. If your tactics went into force, they would be harassed continually, based on ethnicity. How are you going to tell legal from illegal immigrants?

A citizen’s card would be a step toward communist China.

Better would be to put pressure on the Mexican government to provide basic services, employment and good schooling for its citizens, instead of raking in all the profits for the elite.
I’m not sure why, but the level of medical care there is atrocious. Physicians are less well trained than our nurses. I think that goes for most professions.
Mexico needs to improve its economy so everyone isn’t drawn here. Given their preference, most people would rather stay home with their families, but they have to provide for them.

.

 

[didymus]

gnjsdad:

You’ve put your finger on a hugely important aspect of this problem. Cheap labor is virtually the lifeblood of the American establishment. It has always been thus.

I can’t help but think that our leaders would have solved this long ago if it weren’t for the notion that they think the American economy couldn’t survive without cheap labor.

It sounds cynical to say, but it seems that, given a choice, our leaders would rather take the chance that a terrorist could sneak in with a dirty bomb than take a chance that their supply of cheap labor might dry up.

That’s my opinion.

Precisely!
The supposed need for immigrants to do jobs we refuse to do is a myth. I’m afraid I didn’t bookmark the articles but there were some columns in the WSJ online* recently showing that 75-85% of the jobs Americans supposedly refuse to do are done – by Americans. So cheap immigrant labor suppresses wages and technological innovation in those sectors where immigrans are concentrated.

I also heard a guy on NPR the other day saying we should be trying to attract well-educated immigrants; doctors, software designers, engineers, teachers, nurses, &c, &c. Unfortunately US doctors, engineers, software geeks, &c. have enough clout in Congress to stop that from happening.

Last, what if we win the war on illegals? A miracle happens and tomorrow we round up and deport every illegal alien. What happens to the economy of Mexico? I’m sure that the US$ those people send home are a huge prop to the Mexican economy – what happens if it’s taken away?

 

[LCMS_No_More]

didymus:

Last, what if we win the war on illegals? A miracle happens and tomorrow we round up and deport every illegal alien. What happens to the economy of Mexico? I’m sure that the US$ those people send home are a huge prop to the Mexican economy – what happens if it’s taken away?

There would be millions of desperately hungry and angry people just south of us…not a very good thing at all…then your proverbial “war on illegals” will turn into a real war over resources. Granted, we’d probably toast Mexico easily, but that would also not be a very good thing.

 

[davy39]

didymus:

Precisely!
The supposed need for immigrants to do jobs we refuse to do is a myth. I’m afraid I didn’t bookmark the articles but there were some columns in the WSJ online* recently showing that 75-85% of the jobs Americans supposedly refuse to do are done – by Americans. So cheap immigrant labor suppresses wages and technological innovation in those sectors where immigrans are concentrated.

I also heard a guy on NPR the other day saying we should be trying to attract well-educated immigrants; doctors, software designers, engineers, teachers, nurses, &c, &c. Unfortunately US doctors, engineers, software geeks, &c. have enough clout in Congress to stop that from happening.

Last, what if we win the war on illegals? A miracle happens and tomorrow we round up and deport every illegal alien. What happens to the economy of Mexico? I’m sure that the US$ those people send home are a huge prop to the Mexican economy – what happens if it’s taken away?

They should have plenty of jobs. After all, they have most of our larger companies there.

 

[Jeffrey]

Thoought there were already millions of hungry ppl south of the border?

LCMS_No_More:

There would be millions of desperately hungry and angry people just south of us.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Jeffrey:

Thoought there were already millions of hungry ppl south of the border?

Please note the additional adjectives: desperate and angry. Right now, they’re just hungry.

 

[koda]

The above is from the National Farmworker Ministry. There are other links on the page to facts about the lack of sanitary facitilies, exposure to toxic pesticides, lack of clean drinking water and living conditions that would put the 3rd world to shame. I just don’t see Americans lining up to work under these conditions.

nfwm.org/fw/slavery.shtml

Many farm workers are paid by the amount of the crop they harvest - by “piece rate.” For example, cucumber pickers in North Carolina receive approximately 65 cents for each 33 pound bucket they harvest. **This averages out to around $3.90 per hour. ** (“Boycott Mt. Olive Pickles” circular. Farm Labor Organizing Committee, AFL-CIO. Toledo, Ohio.)

 

[wabrams]

koda:

The above is from the National Farmworker Ministry. There are other links on the page to facts about the lack of sanitary facitilies, exposure to toxic pesticides, lack of clean drinking water and living conditions that would put the 3rd world to shame. I just don’t see Americans lining up to work under these conditions.

nfwm.org/fw/slavery.shtml

Many farm workers are paid by the amount of the crop they harvest - by “piece rate.” For example, cucumber pickers in North Carolina receive approximately 65 cents for each 33 pound bucket they harvest. **This averages out to around $3.90 per hour. **(“Boycott Mt. Olive Pickles” circular. Farm Labor Organizing Committee, AFL-CIO. Toledo, Ohio.)

Maybe Americans don’t take it becuase the landowner’s figured it was cheaper to hire illegal immigrants, then after that figured why provide decent living conditions, etc. b/c who are his illegal workers going to complain to?

 

[gilliam]

You guys need to watch the illegals in the Phoenix metro area do outdoor work in > 110 degree heat, day after day (often 7 days a week), and then you can talk about what Americans will and will not do for piece work wages.