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tafan
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You dodged, but now you have answered, sort of. So your primary motivation for being against immigration reform because you want to help the lower income people in this country?
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pnewton
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Your question is untrue. I did not say that or even suggest that. Reasonable arguments are not bigotry. Arguments based on stereotypes are. I never use that term except when the arguments are based in race, nationality or any other stereotype. This is why occurrences of evil by individuals do not and cannot be a valid argument. It is an argument based on stereotype. A politician would be strung up on this if he suggested we deal a certain way with black people based on percentages of violent crime. In this case, we clearly see the bigotry. Why is it so hard to understand that this is not a reasonable argument to use against immigration reform? Hispanics are no more evil than any other group. Therefore, there is nothing inherently evil about illegal immigrants that are Hispanic.
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pnewton
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Conservative may oppose immigration reform as a rule, but it is not a very good rule. Conservatives have also been very sympathetic to the need for immigration reform. This is more of a sideways issue from the traditional understanding of conservatism. Ronald Reagan was a proponent of immigration reform, as was George W Bush and now Jeb Bush. I too favor immigration reform. Republicans should not make the mistake on this issue that liberals have on abortion, making it a litmus test of who is most conservative or Republican.
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oldcatholicguy
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I brought up Italian immigrants coming here without papers as a counterpoint to another poster trying to use them as a comparison point with illegal immigrants today. As I pointed out in my comments earlier in this thread if the Italian immigrants were subject to today’s immigration laws they would be denied immigration/deemed to be illegal immigrants.Allow me to share with you another thought. Earlier another point was made diminishing the immigrants coming via Ellis Island because they had documents or didn’t. One thing for sure upon arrival some of these immigrants got down on their knees and kissed the soil of their new home. They sought to learn English as their primary language. They waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture.
Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, no welfare, no labor laws to protect them. All they had were the skills and craftsmanship. None of these 1st generation Americans ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from. They were Americans fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan. They were defending the United States of America as one people. When we liberated France, no one in those villages were looking for the French-American or the German American or the Irish American. The people of France saw only Americans. And we carried one flag that represented one country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country’s flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an American. They stirred the melting pot into one red, white and blue bowl.
As to your claim that they all got off the boat, kissed the ground, and promptly Americanized themselves, that’s false. There is a long history of immigrant populations taking several generations to become fully integrated into American society and Americanized.
“Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country’s flag…” Yeah, that’s why St. Patrick’s Day, complete with Irish flags flickr.com/photos/jennmau/3359146394/ flickr.com/photos/pat_ossa/4428921172/, is such a non-event in historic Irish settled cities like Boston or New York.
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Ender
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No one opposes immigration reform in general; I think pretty much everyone agrees that what we have now is a mess. What conservatives oppose are specific proposals … which is no different than what liberals oppose: proposals that go against their view about how this problem should be fixed. It is as false to claim that conservatives oppose immigration reform as it is to claim they are indifferent to the problems of immigrants. They simply have a different perspective on how the problems should be resolved.
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Path_Finder
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Good post. Furthermore, it’s not proven that there were Italians who came to this country without papers, that may well be a fable. Ellis Island had their technology back then and it may not have been as good as now. That said, I’m sure a country like Italy had baptism records at the least.Allow me to share with you another thought. Earlier another point was made diminishing the immigrants coming via Ellis Island because they had documents or didn’t. One thing for sure upon arrival some of these immigrants got down on their knees and kissed the soil of their new home. They sought to learn English as their primary language. They waved good bye to their birth place to give their children a new life and did everything in their power to help their children assimilate into one culture.
Nothing was handed to them. No free lunches, no welfare, no labor laws to protect them. All they had were the skills and craftsmanship. None of these 1st generation Americans ever gave any thought about what country their parents had come from. They were Americans fighting Hitler, Mussolini and the Emperor of Japan. They were defending the United States of America as one people. When we liberated France, no one in those villages were looking for the French-American or the German American or the Irish American. The people of France saw only Americans. And we carried one flag that represented one country. Not one of those immigrant sons would have thought about picking up another country’s flag and waving it to represent who they were. It would have been a disgrace to their parents who had sacrificed so much to be here. These immigrants truly knew what it meant to be an American. They stirred the melting pot into one red, white and blue bowl.
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oldcatholicguy
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So there haven’t been comments like- “Immigration laws don’t need to be reformed, they need to be enforced” made?
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Path_Finder
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If you made the Border, North and South, impenetrable that would be indeed an act of compassion because as it is now, organized crime and criminals are making money through human trafficking and people also die in the process as when they cross the desert of Arizona as mentioned in the other thread “O’Malley leads Bishops on Border Visit” Also, money is being made obviously, trafficking illegal items along with the possibility of anyone crossing the border with anything, a weapon or even a disease or sickness.
Immigration Law is unto itself, like Tax Law. Yes, the laws that exist should be enforced, they are not being enforced. Perhaps that is where the trouble is.
Immigration Law is unto itself, like Tax Law. Yes, the laws that exist should be enforced, they are not being enforced. Perhaps that is where the trouble is.
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BChartowski
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Lots of interesting ideas and data on this one. I’ve been a firm believer for as long as I’ve had a thought on the issue that rampant illegal immigration is detrimental to everyone involved - the immigrant as well as the citizens of the country receiving the immigrants. You can’t just start taking in all the illegal immigrants and start talking about immigration reform when clearly nobody is taking into consideration the citizens already here.
Beyond that, though, I think that being angry about the immigration situation is often a righteous anger. People are being demoralized all around, but I think the anger is being directed at the wrong place. This government, and many governments around the world, are very, very good at getting people to fight with each other. This is a prime example. Create two sides, one for amnesty and/or immigration reform; the other questioning the idea and/or proposing alternatives, all the while the powers that be are dictating to either side what the other side believes without either “side” coming to a discussion about the real problem.
Not every issue is isolated; many issues are often tied together, and frequently one issue will give rise to others. The government of the United States is not what it started off as; it has been changed for the worse, as evidenced by the sheer volume of animosity that is rampant among its citizens - and non-citizens - every day. What it all comes down to is money. Surprise, surprise. This government has none - it’s vapor… an idea, nothing tangible. All this country has is debt, and that’s an important thing to remember. The citizens of the USA are so deeply in debt that it’s hard to keep the debt ball rolling. We don’t use a gold standard any longer, so instead debt is traded as if it were gold. People, and the level of debt they are willing to assume, have become the “gold” that is traded. This country NEEDS more people to take on debt so that it can continue to trade and sell that debt. Why do you think so many in government are shouting for amnesty of millions upon millions of illegal immigrants? These poor people will be used to feed the debt monster just like the citizens before them. Sounds like Mammon is running the show.
We have people reminding us that slavery has been abolished. Has it? When so many are enslaved to debt, I can’t say that it has been abolished. As well, I can’t say I feel comfortable saddling millions of unsuspecting immigrants with the same weight that so many of us have willingly taken upon our shoulders - oftentimes unnecessarily. They think they are coming here to earn more, when what will happen is they will be sold into debt slavery. I just pray that the majority of them will avoid it, but when it’s so easy, so tempting to take out a loan for that shiny new toy, I have my doubts that many of them will be able to resist.
It’s sad, and I think our efforts would be better spent trying to see the real problem. The problem isn’t the immigrants themselves - they’re people, too, and I don’t think anyone here has denied that. The problem isn’t American citizens, either. We’ve been pitted against each other to believe that the other is the problem, when all along the man behind the curtain is orchestrating something much more sinister. The more we all fight with each other, the more garbage seems to come down the pike at us.
Beyond that, though, I think that being angry about the immigration situation is often a righteous anger. People are being demoralized all around, but I think the anger is being directed at the wrong place. This government, and many governments around the world, are very, very good at getting people to fight with each other. This is a prime example. Create two sides, one for amnesty and/or immigration reform; the other questioning the idea and/or proposing alternatives, all the while the powers that be are dictating to either side what the other side believes without either “side” coming to a discussion about the real problem.
Not every issue is isolated; many issues are often tied together, and frequently one issue will give rise to others. The government of the United States is not what it started off as; it has been changed for the worse, as evidenced by the sheer volume of animosity that is rampant among its citizens - and non-citizens - every day. What it all comes down to is money. Surprise, surprise. This government has none - it’s vapor… an idea, nothing tangible. All this country has is debt, and that’s an important thing to remember. The citizens of the USA are so deeply in debt that it’s hard to keep the debt ball rolling. We don’t use a gold standard any longer, so instead debt is traded as if it were gold. People, and the level of debt they are willing to assume, have become the “gold” that is traded. This country NEEDS more people to take on debt so that it can continue to trade and sell that debt. Why do you think so many in government are shouting for amnesty of millions upon millions of illegal immigrants? These poor people will be used to feed the debt monster just like the citizens before them. Sounds like Mammon is running the show.
We have people reminding us that slavery has been abolished. Has it? When so many are enslaved to debt, I can’t say that it has been abolished. As well, I can’t say I feel comfortable saddling millions of unsuspecting immigrants with the same weight that so many of us have willingly taken upon our shoulders - oftentimes unnecessarily. They think they are coming here to earn more, when what will happen is they will be sold into debt slavery. I just pray that the majority of them will avoid it, but when it’s so easy, so tempting to take out a loan for that shiny new toy, I have my doubts that many of them will be able to resist.
It’s sad, and I think our efforts would be better spent trying to see the real problem. The problem isn’t the immigrants themselves - they’re people, too, and I don’t think anyone here has denied that. The problem isn’t American citizens, either. We’ve been pitted against each other to believe that the other is the problem, when all along the man behind the curtain is orchestrating something much more sinister. The more we all fight with each other, the more garbage seems to come down the pike at us.
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Path_Finder
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Unfortunately, the argument would be made that undocumented workers and immigrants drive up the debt actually.
wral.com/NC-tax-expert-says-stop-and-investigate-illegal-immigrants-tax-refunds/11798056/
And that’s not to mention all of the social programs that are used by illegals. I’m all for helping the poor but the government should be a good steward of public funds as well.
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BChartowski
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For certain! More debt means more interest earned on that debt by the lender. The housing crash in 2008 is a good example that is recent enough to remember. Ridiculous hordes of bad loans - that were known as bad loans, and can easily be seen as bad loans - were bundled up together and suddenly became good loans? That can be traded? Sounds like someone’s pulling your leg, but it’s true, unfortunately. Gather up all the garbage (bad debt) and suddenly you can say it’s as good as gold (but it sure does stink like garbage.) More debt just brings the government more income, but they need more new debt, and who better to saddle with it than a bunch of unsuspecting immigrants that likely don’t know any better and can be wooed into it.
I agree. You are 100% correct; the government should be a good steward of public funds, and they should be held sternly accountable when they are not. Social programs are also bankrolled by debt, because there isn’t nearly enough money available to fund them. This just adds to the problem. As many are surely aware, countless of these so-called “social programs” are just mechanisms used to line the pockets of the ones who propose them and enact them. It’s a sad state of affairs. I’d almost go as far as to say that so many illegal activities, such as the tax return scheme you posted, are allowed to continue for the most part, specifically to act as a form of enticement. Four billion is a drop in the bucket when compared to what can be harvested from them once they’re citizens through amnesty.
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Erich
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Really? How did you measure that? Since 2003, Homeland Security and the Justice Department have opened spigots of funding for an array of border security operations. These include commitments for 18-foot steel fencing, high-tech surveillance, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), increased prosecutions of illegal border crossers and new deployments of the Border Patrol and National Guard. Yet the federal government’s continued expressions of its commitment to border security only serve to highlight the shortcomings of this commitment. DHS has never even attempted to delineate benchmarks that would measure the security of the border or specify exactly how the massive border security buildup has increased homeland security.
As others have observed, failure to properly control our borders costs citizens in many ways:
- schools become overcrowded,
- medical resources are stretched too thin,
- other government services are overtaxed, and
- taxes increase further.
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pnewton
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I think the operative question that would need to first be asked is can they be enforced, to what extent and how much would it cost. I bet many of the people who favor absolute enforcement would object to an increase in income tax and a corresponding strengthening of federal law enforcement. Just look at how the federal agents in Nevada were characterized.
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pnewton
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I have always considered the cost of illegal immigration the best argument for drastic reform so that those that want to come here can do so and work, pay taxes and support the benefits they receive. Labor is a valuable commodity. I consider it wasteful to discard it instead of utilizing this asset. Almost every argument against illegal immigrants can be seen as an argument for immigration reform and making legal immigration a snap and open to all. Use the market, don’t fight it. We will save on enforcement, be able to better concentrate on terrorist immigration and boost the economy.
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Ender
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Yes, so? If the enforcement of existing laws resolved the situation satisfactorily would new laws be required? If we had new laws that were not enforced would that be any improvement? The situation with regard to immigration, especially illegal immigration, needs to be resolved, but that resolution does not necessarily involve more laws. The only consensus is that something needs to be done. Exactly what that something should be is open to debate.
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oldcatholicguy
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So would be that you claimed “No one opposes immigration reform in general” and enforcing a law isn’t the same as reforming it. Enforce means no change to the current law where reform means changes to the current law.
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Ender
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I was thinking that what people are concerned with is the overall situation with regard to immigration, and that this is what needs to be changed. If enforcing existing laws provided a satisfactory solution then we can probably assume that this would be adequate, while if we changed current laws and this yielded an unsatisfactory solution that would surely be seen as inadequate. It is not the laws necessarily that need to be changed, it is the situation.
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SuperLuigi
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:hmm:
Well, I’d say that a lot of immigrants like the Democratic outlook on immigration because it looks and sounds easy, but also that a lot of Hispanics seem to want the border secure and the chance to learn English.
I’m not aware how other immigrant groups such as Germans, Chinese or Russians feel about border security.
It’s not as cut and dry as it’s often portrayed in popular media.
Plus, quite a few immigrants tend to be more socially conservative as well.
A lot of them don’t like it, but my guess is the mainstream media isn’t a fan of those stories.
Doesn’t help the greater liberal cause…
Then it’s high time to make a distinction.
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SuperLuigi
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They would have a valid point. Federal government spends over $2 trillion a year now. That’s probably a conservative estimate, too.
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pnewton
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I know of no way to increase border security, enforcement, incarceration and deportation for free.They would have a valid point. Federal government spends over $2 trillion a year now. That’s probably a conservative estimate, too.
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