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Serap
Guest
yes, i’ve seen that picture and it is so true of some men. they will ogle at anything that’s attractive; doens’t matter what they are wearing
Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.
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severus68
Guest
Funnily, that was also said by a Pakistani Muslim law professor in a book among another things. I also note from what you say that you take advice only from men. That is up to you and your right.
My view - some women are physically stronger than some men. My daughter can throw some men. Women can go through labour pains and survive, some without epidurals even. I hear mammograms are real fun. It is an insult to men to say they find it hard to resist temptation. It is a cop out and a poor excuse for any man to use his gender as an excuse for not resisting.
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severus68
Guest
Agreed Masha.
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severus68
Guest
I have been reading your posts on this read and thank you - I couldn’t stop smiling.Well, then, dearie, if it’s my responsibility to make sure you don’t ogle me, I certainly have a plan. If I think you’re looking at me inappropriately, I’ll just whup the ever-lovin’ snot outta ya so you never, ever dare to look at another woman again.
Of course, if you wish to take responsibility for yourself, you may wish to choose a less painful method that will not result in your hospitalization.
Miz
I just came across this thread and must confess that I first thought it was a joke. As someone else here said, why aren’t we concntrating on developing our spirituality rather than trying to be the Morals Police. They have those in Iran.
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Shin
Guest
‘Avoid failing, not only against purity, but even against the least rules of an exact modesty.’
St. Paul of the Cross
St. Paul of the Cross
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masha
Guest
Serap,
If a lot of men are noticing you, and you are dressed modestly, it may be that they notice you and appreciate you, without lusting after you. I’ve noticed that this happens to me a lot, especially as I dress “interestingly” (meaning rather ethnic, I guess, lots of layers and colour). It isn’t necessary that a man looking at a women with interest and appreciation is lusting, he may be praising God for your beauty, it may be an inspiration to him. Obviously, as I’m not in your exact situation, only you can decide whether this is so or not, but if it’s at all possible, try to assume the best of these men, it will make your beauty more of a joy to yourself and less of a burden.
Blessings.
If a lot of men are noticing you, and you are dressed modestly, it may be that they notice you and appreciate you, without lusting after you. I’ve noticed that this happens to me a lot, especially as I dress “interestingly” (meaning rather ethnic, I guess, lots of layers and colour). It isn’t necessary that a man looking at a women with interest and appreciation is lusting, he may be praising God for your beauty, it may be an inspiration to him. Obviously, as I’m not in your exact situation, only you can decide whether this is so or not, but if it’s at all possible, try to assume the best of these men, it will make your beauty more of a joy to yourself and less of a burden.
Blessings.
H
HCC
Guest
I work with a lot of Orthodox Jews here in NYC and I so admire their love of modesty. One of the women I work with explained they look at it as covering what is sacred. God made their bodies to be in His service and therefore, there is a holiness in covering.
They focus on the inner beauty, on the soul and these ideas are passed down from mother to daughter each generation. It is something they take great pride in, rather than see it as a drag. They find creative solutions to stay stylish and modest, adding a few inches of fabric to the bottom of a skirt or wearing a long sleeve blouse under a sleeveless top they really love.
Holy Mother Church could learn a lot from these women about discussing modesty and holiness. Connecting the two.
They focus on the inner beauty, on the soul and these ideas are passed down from mother to daughter each generation. It is something they take great pride in, rather than see it as a drag. They find creative solutions to stay stylish and modest, adding a few inches of fabric to the bottom of a skirt or wearing a long sleeve blouse under a sleeveless top they really love.
Holy Mother Church could learn a lot from these women about discussing modesty and holiness. Connecting the two.
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Serap
Guest
Orthodox Jewish men were contracting HIV at a very high rate in the 1990’s in NYC. Why? They were going to prostitutes. It’s terrible, but true.
Perhaps their wives “should” dress sexier so that their husbands will not wander? Sometimes a wife, by dressing too modestly, can actually cause her husband to not appreicate her beauty anymore and wonder off.
My husband isn’t going anywhere b/c I do dress very feminine…some would say immodest, depending on their personal view, but it works for our marriage. I also have hair past my shoulders and wear it down b/c men like it and it makes me feel more womanly.
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Serap
Guest
This is a very good point! I never thought of it this way.
I’m PMSing today, so I better hang low on this thread
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mellowcalico
Guest
The only thing that really bugs me about modesty and immodesty debate is that everyone’s definition is different. And the rules about modesty change by geographic location and time. People say God wants us to be modest, but their definition of what they say God sees as modest changes. Even in the Church different leaders have expressed different opinions. In my mind, modesty is a human definition and it’s not concrete.
For example, I often hear “skirts below the knee” are modest. But in Western Victorian times they would be highly immodest and vulgar. You even had to cover “chair legs” in some cultures. Prior to that time, they had charts that showed skirt length as it related to the age of a girl (with skirts getting longer as a child got older). And even in some cultures today, showing your calves is immodest.
Even withing a society definitions of modesty can change. For example, most people would not consider it immodest to wear a one-piece bathing suit with a little skirt when worn at the beach… in fact it would be considered very modest for swimwear. But if you were to wear that same swimsuit in Walmart or in walking down Main Street USA… now you are immodest.
Now as far as immodesty and lack of respect for women go, like another poster, I don’t find that people treat me any differently no matter how I am dressed. Mean people are still mean and nice people are still nice. I still have doors held for me when I wear jeans and I still have men that don’t hold a door for me when I am in my Sunday best dress and am carrying a sleeping child. I really think how you are treated depends on the individual. That’s not to say clothing might not have an effect on some people, I just don’t think it has an effect on everyone. I also think some people reap what they sow. If you are a mean, disrespectful person, people have less respect for you regardless of gender or how you dress. But if you are a kind, respectful person, people generally treat you well.
As for men lusting… I have no idea what men are thinking when they look at me (unless they whistle or yell out or something–then I can make a pretty good guess). That guy looking at me might just think I look like someone he knows and is trying to place me (I know I’ve done that with people). Or maybe he just likes to people watch and isn’t very discrete about it. Or maybe he’s just day dreaming and I happen to be in the direction he’s looking. I just sometimes think people see something where there really isn’t anything.
For example, I often hear “skirts below the knee” are modest. But in Western Victorian times they would be highly immodest and vulgar. You even had to cover “chair legs” in some cultures. Prior to that time, they had charts that showed skirt length as it related to the age of a girl (with skirts getting longer as a child got older). And even in some cultures today, showing your calves is immodest.
Even withing a society definitions of modesty can change. For example, most people would not consider it immodest to wear a one-piece bathing suit with a little skirt when worn at the beach… in fact it would be considered very modest for swimwear. But if you were to wear that same swimsuit in Walmart or in walking down Main Street USA… now you are immodest.
Now as far as immodesty and lack of respect for women go, like another poster, I don’t find that people treat me any differently no matter how I am dressed. Mean people are still mean and nice people are still nice. I still have doors held for me when I wear jeans and I still have men that don’t hold a door for me when I am in my Sunday best dress and am carrying a sleeping child. I really think how you are treated depends on the individual. That’s not to say clothing might not have an effect on some people, I just don’t think it has an effect on everyone. I also think some people reap what they sow. If you are a mean, disrespectful person, people have less respect for you regardless of gender or how you dress. But if you are a kind, respectful person, people generally treat you well.
As for men lusting… I have no idea what men are thinking when they look at me (unless they whistle or yell out or something–then I can make a pretty good guess). That guy looking at me might just think I look like someone he knows and is trying to place me (I know I’ve done that with people). Or maybe he just likes to people watch and isn’t very discrete about it. Or maybe he’s just day dreaming and I happen to be in the direction he’s looking. I just sometimes think people see something where there really isn’t anything.
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Serap
Guest
I just wanted to add that I find that A LOT of men begin to really check out my bust, legs, etc. after they’ve gotten to know me a bit and see that I’m a very loving mother. For some reason, being a loving mother and a nice person really gets men attracted to me too. I guess it just comes across as being very feminine.
It’s funny b/c I never wear plunging neck lines, but they still look at my chest area hoping to have a glince. I wear skirts just above the knee…never shorter b/c I feel silly.
For some reason, being a loving mother is a real turn on for men. I also noticed it when I was pregnant. It’s so strange.
It’s funny b/c I never wear plunging neck lines, but they still look at my chest area hoping to have a glince. I wear skirts just above the knee…never shorter b/c I feel silly.
For some reason, being a loving mother is a real turn on for men. I also noticed it when I was pregnant. It’s so strange.
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mommamaree
Guest
Serap,
This happens to me, too. While I am plumper right now due to pregnancy, I notice that men still give me admiring looks when I am mothering my children. This mostly happens with men in their 20s and 30s. They don’t stare or anything, but their glance does take in my swollen belly and bust. I have wondered if perhaps they are thinking about the future joy of marriage and having a wife who gives them babies someday? One of the things I learned through friendship with several young men during my 20s is that they may ACT like they just want to date around and have fun and be responsibility-free, but their INNER thoughts go often to their desire for a wife and family. Consequently, all those men found wives and started families before the end of our 20s.
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mommamaree
Guest
[blue bolded quote]
I think this is putting the blame on the wives. Orthodox Jewish culture expects modesty of their ladyfolk. These women were following the expectations set before them, and were honoring their husbands in doing so. It is the fault of the straying men for not delighting themselves in the ‘wives of their youth’, in the privacy of their home (specifically, bedroom). They broke their vows, the sin is theirs.
[green bolded quote]
Having a faithful husband is something to be celebrated, certainly. They are a treasure. But don’t place too much emphasis upon your beauty or style being the reason for him remaining faithful. If something were to ever happen to that beauty, and you were not confident in his faithfulness that he has long demonstrated to you, then you might become uncertain and insecure. External prettiness fades and accidents can mar the body, but deep love between spouses will keep them faithful through whatever life may bring.
Inner beauty matters far more than externals anyway. Have you ever noticed how many gorgeous celebrities are alone or unhappy? Yet you might see a country bumpkin couple with ten teeth between them who adore each other and think they hit the jackpot when they found each other.
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Shin
Guest
In regards to one’s husband, he should not be casually enticed to arousal when there is not going to be the marital act. Other than such times, in fact, what modesty is necessary for such restraint is to be practiced too in the home.
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mommamaree
Guest
I only agree with your statement to a point. If you are planning on first enticing him and then rejecting his advances, then that is cruel. It is frustrating his natural interest in you. However, just walking past your husband as you get out of the shower and pick up your clothes, at a time when intercourse is not possible, such as in the morning or when the children are awake, is not cruel, that is just life. Wearing pretty underwear that he sees in passing or an outfit that is especially pretty is not cruel, either. In a marriage, intimate times may happen at any moment, and spontaneity is a good thing. We cannot always plan for when the marital act may or may not occur. And we also should not worry about leading our spouse into a near occasion of sin simply by being nude or smelling nice or getting dressed/undressed or wearing the wrong blouse/skirt. The body of the wife belongs to the husband, and the husband’s to the wife. Therefore, the only time we should ever be denying each other when arousal occurs is when it is not situationally appropriate (illness, NFP - TTA, stress, care of children/elderly, etc.). So we cannot possibly hold ourselves to the same standards of modesty or conduct when in our homes in the presence of our spouses that we would be held to when outside the home or in the presence of others, although we should have compassion upon them and not parade around and then reject them.
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HCC
Guest
“They were.” I love how you imply that it is everyone and it is rampant. It is not. Look at our own priests for Heaven sakes! People sin-period! This story that orthodox men go to prostitutes because their wives won’t give them what they want is absurd and disrespectful to people of faith. You should know better!
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Shin
Guest
I am glad you partially agree, but I wonder if you understand the actual reasons why one should not entice one’s husband outside of the context of the marital act and how this is the pivot around which all decisions about simple matters of convenience and organization turn?
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HCC
Guest
Unfortunately I don’t know what you are saying here. Perhaps you could clarify. You seem to want to tear down simple goodness, so I’m already suspicious of whatever motives you have here. Modesty, by the way, extends to more than just covering your knee caps. It is also a disposition of the heart and personal conduct. Try using a little modesty in the way you speak of others.
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Serap
Guest
That was exactly my point…religion and cheaters have no boundaries. I was being a “devil’s advocate” if you may. It wasn’t my beliefs or values being put forth. I didn’t say anyone was “rampant”…there are documentaries about it. It is a fact and it happened in very large numbers…higher than many other social groups. That is why it was analyzed by many sociologists as to why the behaviour happened.
I CAN say that some husbands DO and WILL look elsewhere if their wife gains 40 lbs and starts to look “frumpy”. Is it fair? No, but it’s a fact of life.
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Serap
Guest
i agree 100%. Mother Theresa is an example of inner beauty. She was gorgeous in her heart and actions.[blue bolded quote]
I think this is putting the blame on the wives. Orthodox Jewish culture expects modesty of their ladyfolk. These women were following the expectations set before them, and were honoring their husbands in doing so. It is the fault of the straying men for not delighting themselves in the ‘wives of their youth’, in the privacy of their home (specifically, bedroom). They broke their vows, the sin is theirs.
[green bolded quote]
Having a faithful husband is something to be celebrated, certainly. They are a treasure. But don’t place too much emphasis upon your beauty or style being the reason for him remaining faithful. If something were to ever happen to that beauty, and you were not confident in his faithfulness that he has long demonstrated to you, then you might become uncertain and insecure. External prettiness fades and accidents can mar the body, but deep love between spouses will keep them faithful through whatever life may bring.
Inner beauty matters far more than externals anyway. Have you ever noticed how many gorgeous celebrities are alone or unhappy? Yet you might see a country bumpkin couple with ten teeth between them who adore each other and think they hit the jackpot when they found each other.
Beautiful women become ugly very quickly if they are not kind and sincere.
I don’t place emphasis on my physical appearance but I DO place emphasis on my entire package…my inner heart, kindness, generousity, physical appearance, intelligence, being a loving wife and mother, helping others in need, being a good friend, loyalty, love for God and others, etc.
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