Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

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We need to recover our NATURAL shame? Shame is unnatural and the manifestation of the damage caused to the human soul by sin! There is nothing natural about it and it was not what God intended for us!

People who are doing nothing wrong have no need to dwell in shame. And there is no requirement for them to do so. The posters who have talked about how modesty standards have changed have made very good points. Even today they are not the same in different cultures. Last time I checked, we are Catholics, and intent is crucial to the Catholic understanding of accountability for sin. Any person who is not purposely dressing to attract prurient attention is not guilty of sin, no matter how short her skirt is.
 
You scandalized me with that post.

Attend Mass safely? Do you hear yourself? I think you are more focused on controlling other people than the true teachings of Jesus Christ. Christianity was never supposed about controlling people or political power. Your two steps from flying planes into buildings.

Read the gospels sometime and learn about the kind of people Jesus spent his time with. I assure you these women he spent time with were not wearing full length sleeve and the latest styles in Amish wear.
Cicero, my point was simply that if a scantily clad woman comes and sits right in front of me in church, I have nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. At least on the street, at the supermarket, etc, I can turn away my head, and walk away. In the church, however, if she sits in front of me (and the church is packed, the Mass already started, because otherwise I would definitely move to another pew), I’m stuck with a display of bare backs and shoulders, thighs, buttocks and whatnot, all within a couple of feet from me. Paradoxically, even the beach is less scandalizing than what goes on in some of our churches, because the beachgoers wearing swimming suits are scattered in an open space and not so up close, and not so strikingly out of place, as the displays of skin and the fashions specifically designed to attract attention to a woman’s curves, in a packed church building. In church, if my visual field is filled with something like this, and there’s nowhere to turn my head, my only escape is to close my eyes and to go like that for the whole duration of the Mass.
 
Immodest dress is an objective sin. Clothing and fashions are not relative, they have absolute standards of modesty and purity.

All objective sins are opposed in the interior life both by natural law and God’s grace. It is only in extraordinary cases they are not also interior sins, because to commit them is to defy both.

Concupiscence is now built into man. There’s no such thing as its nonexistance. To pretend one can go around naked or half naked everywhere without sin is non-Christian modern fantasy. Anyone in touch with his interior life can see it leads to lust, and -natural- embarassment. These are -protections- given to us by God. Not things to be overcome.

A single look with lust willfully indulged in is a mortal sin, that condemns a soul to Hell forever. A person who aids and abets this – you had better believe is not serving the grace of God.

‘Wherein shall I cleanse thy heart, saith the Lord God: seeing thou dost all these the works of a shameless prostitute?’

Ezechiel 16:30

‘If he lose shame and modesty, he will remain in sin.’

St. Jerome, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘. . . Now, observe, my daughter, the contrast between the luxurious dress of many women, and the raiment and adornments of Jesus. . . Tell me: what relation do their fine shoes bear to the spikes in Jesus’ Feet? The rings on their hands to the nails which perforated His? The fashionable coiffure to the Crown of Thorns? The painted face to That covered with bruises? Shoulders exposed by the low-cut gown to His, all striped with Blood? Ah, but there *is *a marked likeness between these worldly women and the Jews who, incited by the Devil, scourged Our Lord! At the hour of such a woman’s death, I think Jesus will be heard saying: "Cujus est imago haec et circumscripto. . . of whom is she the image?" And the reply will be: "Demonii. . . of the Devil!" Then He will say: “Let her who has followed the Devil’s fashions be handed over to him; and to God, those who have imitated the modesty of Jesus and Mary.”’

St. Anthony Mary Claret
 
Immodest dress is an objective sin. Clothing and fashions are not relative, they have absolute standards of modesty and purity.
Who makes the determination? The guy sitting next to me in the pew has no authority. My pastor has the right to determine the dress code for those of us serving in ministry, and has, but he cannot tell us we are SINNING because he doesn’t like a certain outfit. His standard may be wildly different from the pastor of the parish a few miles away. What you call immodest dress will not be so to others. Papal statements from the 1950s, while instructive for some, are not doctrine nor dogma nor even a discipline imposed by the Church. They are the opinions of one man, a holy man, but just another human, and not spoken infallibly. One cannot speak ex cathedra about fashion. You say it’s objective. But it’s the fact that it is so very SUBJECTIVE that is the problem. And honestly, the day the Catholic Church convenes an authoritative body to issue commands about what I am allowed to wear is the day I toss it in the same bin with radical Islam.
 
We have tradition, and we have authoritative pronouncements in the links provided above.

You’re talking ex cathedra, throwing Catholicism in the bin… that’s disrespectful and over the top. A person should show more prudence than that.

We have scripture… we have tradition… we have natural law.

It’s an established and unalterable part of the Catholic faith that it is a sin to be a near occasion of sin for the general populous by the way you dress.

And it’s quite obvious that there are some standards of dress that never affect the general populous of men impurely and some that do. What they are is mostly indicated in the links above too. You might want to consider how you are affected and what does and does not, and what it takes for a woman to be easily viewed as a sister or not.

I’m not here to dispute with you. But if you actually open yourself up to your childhood, instead of what you are now, you might find in your heart a different answer and a different way of viewing these things than you are putting forth.
 
But if you actually open yourself up to your childhood, instead of what you are now, you might find in your heart a different answer and a different way of viewing these things than you are putting forth.
Uh… what? I really don’t understand this comment.

I also get really sick of how people try to dress this up as an issue of respect for women when all it really is is some men blaming women for their own shortcomings.
 
I’m saying that most children have a natural sense of this, emotionally.

This isn’t men blaming women, this is shared responsibility for purity on the part of both men and women, that respects the differences and weaknesses of people.

As Christians we are to care about each other and help keep each other from sin.
 
Immodesty and the lack of respect for women - two sides of the same coin.

Respect for women in this country is at an all time low, and much of that is because of the way they dress, Going shopping, to class and even to Sunday Mass, in a t-shirt, jeans or shorts, does nothing to enhance the dignity of a woman. Women dress the way they do today because someone, over half a century ago, decided they wanted to dumb down America, and convincing people to be less concerned about how they dress is one way of doing it.

Our society today suffers from an acute lack of critical thinking skills, and there is a definite connection between the way we dress and how we think. If we dress like slobs, we soon begin to think like slobs. No discipline of body – no discipline of mind. This situation did not come about by accident, but was a well orchestrated plan to help destroy our Christian society. In her book "Dressing With Dignity”, Colleen Hammond explains this point in detail.

In her article, “The Dignity of True Femininity”, Dr. Anne Marie McDonnell also illustrates the extent of the problem. She says: *“For a woman to live according to Catholic teaching in today’s society she needs heroic virtue. Every form of media, including television, movies, magazines, books, computers, music, and theater all assault women’s human dignity, often portraying her in a pornographic manner as an object of lust." *

Women need to understand that men react differently than women in regards to modesty. Mrs. Hammond discusses this phenomenon in her book. The following quote illustrates the point.

*”Women must learn that men are “wired” differently and the way a woman dresses can have a definite impact on how a man reacts to her. As an example, if a man is watching a TV talk show or interview, and sees a modestly dressed woman sitting on a chair or couch and she is wearing a dress or skirt that extends several inches below the knees, she is viewed as a total woman and the mans concentration is on her, as a complete person, and on what she is saying or whatever her purpose is for being on that particular show.

However, if you take the same woman and shorten her skirt so that it is two or three inches above the knees, then the man perceives her in a different manner, more as a sexual object. He no longer views her as a whole person worthy of respect. Instead, he sees her as a collection of parts, with some parts drawing more attention than others. This sexual “evaluation” all takes place in split second in the brain, but has the effect of distracting the man from what she is saying, because her appearance is sending a different message. And the more immodest the manner of dress, the greater the distraction.

Even if they are full length and not tight fitting, a pair of slacks on a woman has the same psychological effect of dividing her up into parts”.
*
I would therefore encourage women to reconsider the manner in which they dress, and also the manner in which they dress their young children. How often do we see, even at Sunday Mass, young girls dressed in skimpy outfits, thus accustoming them to immodesty at a very early age.

And, as a side note, I should, at least, mention the disgraceful display of immodesty exhibited by brides and their bridal parties an most Catholic weddings today. Recently, at such a wedding I attended, the comment was made that the bride and bridal party looked more like the Playboy Review than an occasion of “Holy” matrimony.

In conclusion, I would offer a challenge to any woman who reads this article. For two or three weeks, get rid of the t-shirts, slacks and old tennis shoes and wear a long skirt and nice blouse, or dress, and dress very feminine and ladylike (but not extravagantly), and notice how you are treated by other people, men especially.

.
And in cultures where women are covered to the point of invisibility (i.e. Afghanistan, Pakistan, most places in the Middle East), women are so respected that they have no rights whatsoever.

What is wrong with wearing pants (slacks? Who says that word anymore???) and tea shirts exactly? Even back in the so called good old days, where women were covered, they still managed to exude sexuality through such things as body-restricting corsets and girdles that emphasized their figures and breast size.

Maybe we should just all don baggy dun-coloured sack cloth, male and female. Or dress as the Chinese used to do, with their uni-sex jackets and baggy pants.

Honestly, though? Some men will find the oddest things erotic. Like shoes. And toes. Or elbows and knees. I would guess that is their problem, not the fault of women.
 
Well, Shin, I guess you haven’t met my kids. Maybe I corrupted them, because most of the time, they hang out around the house in their underwear! So much for yet another of your “universal” truths…:rolleyes:
 
God created Adam and Eve naked. And they stood right in front of Him like that! And He has x-ray goggles anyway… he can see through all your clothes. Horrifying, isn’t it. Jeez. :rolleyes: God doesn’t object to human bodies… Puritans do.

I have not read the whole thread. All I really want to say is that the assumptions in the article posted in the OP weigh about 1000 pounds. And what a low opinion of men has been expressed on this thread! I’m sorry if some of you want to excuse your own weakness and indulgence of sin by blaming women, but there are REAL men, who have strong sex drives and find the female form lovely and attractive, who somehow still manage not to behave like slobbering Neanderthals and to honor the woman they made vows to by reserving their desirous attentions for her only. I’m married to one.

I guess when he gets back from Afghanistan, I’ll have to ask him if he thinks we should institute burqas. He’s gonna have a great chance to see how that looks in real life. :ehh:
I think your comparison to Adam and Eve is way out there and does not apply, remember what happened after they ate the apple. I also included men in my post as being as bad as the women if you want inclusive language. Society in general has very bad standards today.
 
there are many men who try to avoid being tempted to lust by closing their eyes, being very careful to look above the shoulders only, etc, but when women dress with so little clothing it is difficult to avoid seeing and seeing can be very powerful and yes, they can rip their thoughts away from what you so willingly reveal to one and all, but it takes a lot of willpower and hard work, making them be aways on their guard if they want to avoid sin. that really isn’t fair, especially in church or other crowded, unavoidably close or confined places, especially for long spans of time, like an hour long Mass. it is very simplistic to say ‘so don’t lust’ or 'so don’t look, ’ but give men a fighting chance by covering up those areas of your body that should only be revealed to your husband (or, men, your wife) . be good to each other. it’s not that hard.
 
I’m sure I’d look and smell just lovely after bush hogging the fields and cleaning stalls in a denim skirt to my ankles and a blouse up to my chin especially when it’s 115 degrees in the shade. 🙂

After this election I promised myself that I was going to start a loin girding business and in the back room also make burqas. I sort of shelved that idea but after reading this thread I might be able to make some easy cash off of a few here. 😉
 
Well, Shin, I guess you haven’t met my kids. Maybe I corrupted them, because most of the time, they hang out around the house in their underwear! So much for yet another of your “universal” truths…:rolleyes:
I was going to say - young children for the most part are just as happy to run around nekkid as clothed, weather permitting, sometimes more so.
 
there are many men who try to avoid being tempted to lust by closing their eyes, being very careful to look above the shoulders only, etc, but when women dress with so little clothing it is difficult to avoid seeing and seeing can be very powerful and yes, they can rip their thoughts away from what you so willingly reveal to one and all, but it takes a lot of willpower and hard work, making them be aways on their guard if they want to avoid sin. that really isn’t fair, especially in church or other crowded, unavoidably close or confined places, especially for long spans of time, like an hour long Mass. it is very simplistic to say ‘so don’t lust’ or 'so don’t look, ’ but give men a fighting chance by covering up those areas of your body that should only be revealed to your husband (or, men, your wife) . be good to each other. it’s not that hard.
👍

And there is a huge difference between saying don’t wear a shirt so transparent that I can see every detail of the lace on your push up bra (a saw a girl wearing that at Mass once), and saying wear a burqa.
 
Well first off, im hard to get. Guys ask me out left and right and they always get a ‘no’ because they come off to me as desperate and wanting ‘something’.

I dress respectful, but i also wear jeans that FIT me, mini skirts, short shorts, anything that i feel comfortable, and i dress for the weather. Im not going to dress in a long skirt and a sweater when is 95 degrese out. that is ridiculous.

Anyways, i will say that if a girl runs around wearing no clothes, or if a guy runs around wearing no clothes, i see them as just slutty.
 
**I suppose you would look and smell the same regardless of what you were wearing (or weren’t wearing). And who said anything a skirt to your ankles or a blouse to your chin.

If you disapproval of the article, can’t you find a better way to express yourself than writing such exaggerated foolishness?**
I’m sure I’d look and smell just lovely after bush hogging the fields and cleaning stalls in a denim skirt to my ankles and a blouse up to my chin especially when it’s 115 degrees in the shade. 🙂

After this election I promised myself that I was going to start a loin girding business and in the back room also make burqas. I sort of shelved that idea but after reading this thread I might be able to make some easy cash off of a few here. 😉
 
After this election I promised myself that I was going to start a loin girding business
Ignore people with no sense of humor. I see your main problem with getting this business off the ground in finding enough men around who have anything left to gird these days. Between decades of radical feminism gone mainstream and now the current ruling class cutting off this country’s cojones at every opportunity…

And before anyone tries to come back at with me about how wanting men to be men is hypocritical if I disagree with this thread… being a real man has nothing to do with oppressing women and blaming them for your own bad behavior. That’s what abusers do.
 
** Dear BlueShadow.

I fail to see how a mini skirt or short shorts can be considered “respectful” dress. And why would you wear a sweater on a hot day? Do you know what is required by the Mary like standards of modesty? Remember what Our Lady said at Fatima: "Many fashions will be introduced that will be very offensive to Our Lord, and more souls go to hell for sins of the flesh than for any other reason. Try answering this question.What was the average summer temperature of the area where Our Lady lived during her life, and did she run around in short shorts and mini skirts? **

**I do not mean to be disrespectful in any way, but these flippant comments about my article seem to show a complete lack of any serious attitude or concern about modesty, by many of those who have commented on it.

Can you tell me how many sins of impure thoughts, desires or actions you have caused by your manner of dress? I am sure you can not answer this question. We will only find out such things when we appear before God for judgment. And if you think that 95 degrees is hot, what do you think the temperature is in purgatory - or Hell?
**
Well first off, im hard to get. Guys ask me out left and right and they always get a ‘no’ because they come off to me as desperate and wanting ‘something’.

I dress respectful, but i also wear jeans that FIT me, mini skirts, short shorts, anything that i feel comfortable, and i dress for the weather. Im not going to dress in a long skirt and a sweater when is 95 degrese out. that is ridiculous.

Anyways, i will say that if a girl runs around wearing no clothes, or if a guy runs around wearing no clothes, i see them as just slutty.
 
Well first off, im hard to get. Guys ask me out left and right and they always get a ‘no’ because they come off to me as desperate and wanting ‘something’.
Something to think about … how we dress influences how we are treated. Do an experiment - walk into a store in an expensive-looking suit, nicely made up, well-groomed etc. Then go back to that same store the next day in scruffy sweats with no makeup and uncombed hair.

You’ll see a world of difference in the way you’re treated by the staff on each occasion, even though inside you are the same person. Because you are portraying yourself differently - and the way we portray ourselves is (unchangeable things like physical features apart) a choice.

It is possible (in fact likely) that these guys act ‘desperate and wanting something’ around you because YOU, by your short shorts and miniskirts, portray YOURSELF as being ‘desperate and wanting something’. They register that and respond accordingly.

Why not get rid of the false and misleading advertising - dress nicely and attractively, but not like an ‘easy get’ (which miniskirts implies) since you in fact aren’t one? The nice guys will still ask you out, the ones who are desperate and out for something won’t bother. It’ll save you so much trouble in the long run.

Why do people think ‘modest dress’ means skirts to the ground and sweaters or shirts buttoned up to the chin? Nothing wrong with a knee-length rather than mini skirt. Or a shirt which covers the upper arms and cleavage rather than showing them. You don’t need to button it up to the chin to achieve those.

Believe me, my parents live in the tropics, and I’m not skinny so I feel the heat up there intensely when I visit them in summer. I can nonetheless dress in a way that is modest but still cool and comfortable. When in a lightweight material that breathes, such as cotton, a knee-length skirt and short-sleeved shirt are no more uncomfortable than any other clothing.
 
there are many men who try to avoid being tempted to lust by closing their eyes, being very careful to look above the shoulders only, etc, but when women dress with so little clothing it is difficult to avoid seeing and seeing can be very powerful and yes, they can rip their thoughts away from what you so willingly reveal to one and all, but it takes a lot of willpower and hard work, making them be aways on their guard if they want to avoid sin. that really isn’t fair, especially in church or other crowded, unavoidably close or confined places, especially for long spans of time, like an hour long Mass. it is very simplistic to say ‘so don’t lust’ or 'so don’t look, ’ but give men a fighting chance by covering up those areas of your body that should only be revealed to your husband (or, men, your wife) . be good to each other. it’s not that hard.
Last night when I went to mass I was in the parking lot and opened my mail, one letter was from a group called Adam and Eve, I thought a religious group wanting a donation, turns out it was for pornography, so I was getting out of my truck and a group of girls heading into mass were wearing short shorts and no shoulder tank tops to mass, then I go in and get seated and two rows up from me are two women very scantily dressed, one of the women was the lectern for mass, she had a short dress on well above the knees. This is just going to evening mass, I think the devil was gunning for me last night. 🤷 yes I avert my eyes a lot.
 
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