Infinite Regress: the one pathway to salvation

[paul_c]

This is the point where we differ. I don’t see any biblical concept of useless, wasted, or ineffectual grace. And if the grace needed for salvation is useless, wasted, or ineffectual grace every time the recipient refuses to cooperate with it, then salvation is only made POSSIBLE by what God does, but salvation is ACTUALLY the work of the saved individual who cooperates sufficiently with the graces given.

This is completely against the teachings of the bible, as well as my own experience in being converted without my own efforts and without my own cooperation, since, like Saul on the road to Damascus, I experienced sudden conversion without having searched for it and with no cooperation in the conversion itself. My conversion was truly a miracle and I believe that all conversions (to genuine faith in God) are miracles from God. There is no boasting in our salvation (Eph. 2:9) because we don’t DO anything to cause, assist, or cooperate in our own salvation. To put it another way, salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. We don’t bring ourselves to faith, it is God who causes His elect to begin to want what is truly good (God) and to become willing to believe in Jesus.

Mick, I don’t disagree that the conversion experience is a powerful expression of God’s grace. But you probably know people who think (and probably did) have true conversion experiences, only to fall away. Some people describe this as never having truly been saved or not being truly one of the elect. The problem with this theology is that it denies man’s free will and ascribes everything, good and bad with God. It also means that God deliberately created beings that will spend eternity in hell.

Catholic theology sees this differently. God gives everyone the chance at heaven and wants everyone to be with him. However, he will not force men to love him. If they chose to love other “Gods” (like money or themselves) and thus, separate themselves form his grace, they condemn themselves of thier own free will. so when we see people who turn from God after having a conversion experience, we do not blame God for this, but the person himself, who had free will, life, conscience, reason, and necessary grace from God and still turned away.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Mick, I don’t disagree that the conversion experience is a powerful expression of God’s grace. But you probably know people who think (and probably did) have true conversion experiences, only to fall away. Some people describe this as never having truly been saved or not being truly one of the elect. The problem with this theology is that it denies man’s free will and ascribes everything, good and bad with God. It also means that God deliberately created beings that will spend eternity in hell.

Catholic theology sees this differently. God gives everyone the chance at heaven and wants everyone to be with him. However, he will not force men to love him. If they chose to love other “Gods” (like money or themselves) and thus, separate themselves form his grace, they condemn themselves of thier own free will. so when we see people who turn from God after having a conversion experience, we do not blame God for this, but the person himself, who had free will, life, conscience, reason, and necessary grace from God and still turned away.

Hi Paul,

Of course it happens that lots of people had a religious “conversion” experience that wasn’t from God, and yet it seemed perfectly genuine. There are countless JW’s, Mormons, Muslims, and Jews, who sincerely believe that their new-found religious faith conversion was from God. But a powerful “conversion experience” is no proof of its divine origin.

Regarding the issue of whether salvation is a gift that can received and then lost, it is self evident that the grace of salvation would be pointless, useless, and actually meaningless if it is eventually lost. To put it another way, if the gift of salvation is only a temporary gift, and it isn’t accompanied by the gift (grace) of perseverance, then it has no point and no purpose. I’m a changed saved person, but I still wander away from God. If not for His faithfulness, I would have wandered into unbelief long ago. The Good Shepherd is good. He will lose none of His sheep. Although I still sin, God always brings me back to Him.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

The problem with this theology is that it denies man's free will and ascribes everything, good and bad with God.

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but there is a sense in which it is true. Evil can’t possibly exist without the existence of something good (God). However, just because God exists, that by itself, doesn’t mean that evil HAS to exist. God’s existence is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for the existence of evil.

It also means that God deliberately created beings that will spend eternity in hell.

Well it had to have been deliberate if it wasn’t accidental. Is it your view that God created certain people without knowing that they were never to repent and accept Him?

Catholic theology sees this differently. God gives everyone the chance at heaven and wants everyone to be with him.

Then, in your view, God is not all-powerful. It seems to me that an all-powerful God is able to save ALL that He wants to save.

However, he will not force men to love him.

Agreed.

If they chose to love other “Gods” (like money or themselves) and thus, separate themselves form his grace, they condemn themselves of thier own free will. so when we see people who turn from God after having a conversion experience, we do not blame God for this, but the person himself, who had free will, life, conscience, reason, and necessary grace from God and still turned away.

What happened to the will of all mankind because of the first sin? Didn’t God give ALL of us over to depravity? Yet in your view, FALLEN mankind hasn’t lost his freedom to will (want) what is truly good (God)? If we didn’t lose that freedom, then how do you explain the horrible sin and Godlessness throughout the world ever since the fall?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but there is a sense in which it is true. Evil can’t possibly exist without the existence of something good (God). However, just because God exists, that by itself, doesn’t mean that evil HAS to exist. God’s existence is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for the existence of evil.

I believe Paul C is questioning if you believe God is the author of evil. One of God’s divine attributes is that He is good seeming from His perfection. He cannot be both good and evil. God’s attributes cannot be separated since that would be a limitation and a limitation would mean that he is finite. Since God’s attributes cannot be separated, His justice is His Mercy. He’s both Judge and Savior.

Well it had to have been deliberate if it wasn’t accidental. Is it your view that God created certain people without knowing that they were never to repent and accept Him?

I’m sure that God foreknew but did He predetermine it?

Then, in your view, God is not all-powerful. It seems to me that an all-powerful God is able to save ALL that He wants to save.

Then why does He only save the elect since He is all powerful? Scripture tells us He desires all men to be saved. God is indeed all powerful and in His sovereignty, He gave men free will. You’ve agreed that God doesn’t want to force men to love Him, that omission suggests some free will on man’s part is involved.

What happened to the will of all mankind because of the first sin? Didn’t God give ALL of us over to depravity? Yet in your view, FALLEN mankind hasn’t lost his freedom to will (want) what is truly good (God)? If we didn’t lose that freedom, then how do you explain the horrible sin and Godlessness throughout the world ever since the fall?

Catholics believe in original sin (not total depravity), meaning that mankind has a tendency towards evil. Mankind never lost his free will, which God created by His sovereignty in our first parents. The Book of Romans tell us that each person has God’s laws written in his heart. Also, one of the effects of actual grace (the grace that precedes conversion or repentance) is the desire to do good.

I asked this before: God created Adam and Eve with a free will and He is sovereign. Did fallen Adam “unmake” God’s creation by removing his own free will?

Of course it happens that lots of people had a religious “conversion” experience that wasn’t from God, and yet it seemed perfectly genuine. There are countless JW’s, Mormons, Muslims, and Jews, who sincerely believe that their new-found religious faith conversion was from God. But a powerful “conversion experience” is no proof of its divine origin.

I’m curious about what is the proof that a conversion experience is of divine origin.

Regarding the issue of whether salvation is a gift that can received and then lost, it is self evident that the grace of salvation would be pointless, useless, and actually meaningless if it is eventually lost. To put it another way, if the gift of salvation is only a temporary gift, and it isn’t accompanied by the gift (grace) of perseverance, then it has no point and no purpose. I’m a changed saved person, but I still wander away from God. If not for His faithfulness, I would have wandered into unbelief long ago. The Good Shepherd is good. He will lose none of His sheep. Although I still sin, God always brings me back to Him.

God desires all to be saved but He will not force Himself upon us. When you wander away from God, are His graces pointless, useless, meaningless or lost? Indeed, God is faithful and He is ready to heap graces upon us. Catholics don’t view salvation as a one-time event but rather justification and sanctification are one process through a lifetime. During our lifetime, God has granted us many graces to repent but if we refuse them, it is not God’s fault but ourselves. Does that help explain our point of view better?

This is the point where we differ. I don’t see any biblical concept of useless, wasted, or ineffectual grace. And if the grace needed for salvation is useless, wasted, or ineffectual grace every time the recipient refuses to cooperate with it, then salvation is only made POSSIBLE by what God does, but salvation is ACTUALLY the work of the saved individual who cooperates sufficiently with the graces given.

Salvation isn’t the sole work of the individual cooperating with God’s grace. The fact that is God’s grace that grants us the desire to convert, the desire to do good, etc. and the fact that it is only under God’s grace, that our works have any merit. What would you say to the father of the Prodigal son? Was his gift of inheritance wasted on his son when he spent it on debauchery?

This is completely against the teachings of the bible, as well as my own experience in being converted without my own efforts and without my own cooperation, since, like Saul on the road to Damascus, I experienced sudden conversion without having searched for it and with no cooperation in the conversion itself. My conversion was truly a miracle and I believe that all conversions (to genuine faith in God) are miracles from God. There is no boasting in our salvation (Eph. 2:9) because we don’t DO anything to cause, assist, or cooperate in our own salvation. To put it another way, salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. We don’t bring ourselves to faith, it is God who causes His elect to begin to want what is truly good (God) and to become willing to believe in Jesus.

Catholics aren’t boasting about our salvation; it’s only through God’s benevolence that our works have merit. He suffered and died and redeemed all of humanity when He could’ve left us to our own devices. A cooperation with God’s grace doesn’t demean God but glorifies Him. Do you mind telling me more about your conversion?

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
The problem with this theology is that it denies man’s free will and ascribes everything, good and bad with God.

This wasn’t what I meant. You see, at first blush, , the Reformed Concepts of Sola fide/ sola grace/ Sola Christus would seem to be placing us in the desired infinitely subordinate role to Jesus. However, on further reflection, this is not the case. It in fact turns the relationship upside down. If you believe in Jesus, he is now required to save you, no matter whether you turn away from him or not. Furthermore, it seeks to make God responsible for our bad decisions. Fro in this theology, if we are condemned, it is because God wills it. If we do evil, it is because we are not one fo the elect and so God in effect caused it.

Catholic theology is different on this point. We believe that God gives every man what he needs to be saved: life, free will, reason, conscience to guide us, the ability to gain grace through the sacraments. the ability to have every sin forgiven if we reach out to him sacramentally, In addition, Jesus’ sacrifice opened up heaven for us and his example showed us how to live lives of love. Now it is true that God gives different graces to every man but it is also true, as stated in scripture that to those that more is given, more is expected. In other words, God grades on a curve. Now, if a man doesn’t do what is expected, he will be condemned and it will be his own fault. God gave him everything he needed and Jesus sacrifices himself for us. How can we ascribe any fault to them for our failures?

Originally Posted by paul c
It also means that God deliberately created beings that will spend eternity in hell.

It is the catholic view that while God has perfect foresight and knows how people will act, he doesn’t force them to act in any given way but allows them actual free will. So in Catholic theology, God’s plan and man’s free will can perfectly co-exist. Man is free to act but God knows how he will act and his plan takes that into account, without forcing the actual actions.

Originally Posted by paul c Catholic theology sees this differently. God gives everyone the chance at heaven and wants everyone to be with him.

No, God is all powerful and omniscient as well. He can save everyone, but out of respect for his creatures, he allows them to make their own choices and does not force any one to love him (which you agree on below)

Originally Posted by paul c However, he will not force men to love him.

Originally Posted by paul c If they chose to love other “Gods” (like money or themselves) and thus, separate themselves form his grace, they condemn themselves of thier own free will. so when we see people who turn from God after having a conversion experience, we do not blame God for this, but the person himself, who had free will, life, conscience, reason, and necessary grace from God and still turned away.

Nothing happened to the free will of mankind because of the first sin (nothing says God took away free will, just because man used it poorly) and God did NOT give us over to depravity. Those are non-scriptural innovations by Luther, Calvin and like-minded Portestants. In Catholic theology, sin entered the world when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Men are still in the image and likeness of God but they no longer have the innate holiness and grace they had before the fall, and hence are subject to temptation and sin. This lost grace is what is replaced by the sacraments, made possible by Jesus’ death and resurrection. By regaining Grace, God’s life within us, we can do the good works required of us so that heaven is made possible. Here is the official teaching from the Cathechism on the Fall of man: scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

Of course it happens that lots of people had a religious “conversion” experience that wasn’t from God, and yet it seemed perfectly genuine. There are countless JW’s, Mormons, Muslims, and Jews, who sincerely believe that their new-found religious faith conversion was from God. But a powerful “conversion experience” is no proof of its divine origin.

I agree with this. Yet, you know countless evangelicals are convinced they are going to heaven because of just such an experience.

Regarding the issue of whether salvation is a gift that can received and then lost, it is self evident that the grace of salvation would be pointless, useless, and actually meaningless if it is eventually lost. To put it another way, if the gift of salvation is only a temporary gift, and it isn’t accompanied by the gift (grace) of perseverance, then it has no point and no purpose. I’m a changed saved person, but I still wander away from God. If not for His faithfulness, I would have wandered into unbelief long ago. The Good Shepherd is good. He will lose none of His sheep. Although I still sin, God always brings me back to Him.

Mick, let me help you with this. A gift is freely given, with no strings attatched. Whether you use it or not, is up to you. If something is given to you with the requirement that you use it , it ceases to be a gift and becomes an obligation.

God gives us graces through the sacraments. If we continually partake with an open heart, it is very likely that we will persevere to the end. However, God does not force us to take his graces, which are freely given, and far from pointless… You take and use the graces as a function of your own will . Such is the nature of God’s gift.

God does not force you to love him. He will not lose any that want to follow him, but he will allow those that want to separate from him to do so.

By the way, I agree that God is calling you back. That’s why you are here - to bring you into full communion with the church and to allow you to gain the graces from the sacraments. Can’t you see that yet? Trust me, many, many people have followed in this path.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Grace. God gives us actual grace, this grace precedes our conversion and points us to repentance. We also receive sanctifying graces from the Sacraments to help us on our spiritual journey. But again, we need to cooperate with God in these. Example: God may grant a lustful man an actual grace, calling him to repent of his ways, to see Him in the Confessional but the lustful man may choose not to do so.

Does this answer your question?

Hi Dancelittleewok,

I disagree. The way I see it, genuine conversion is a change within, brought about by the grace of God, at His appointed time, for His purpose, which is the salvation of specific people (His elect). In the grace of regeneration (being born of the Spirit), elect sinners are brought to the knowledge of their own desperate need for Jesus because of their own sinfulness, and the knowledge of God’s wonderful mercy. Because this kind of grace (the regeneration of the soul) changes the sinner’s entire attitude toward God, they no longer WANT to resist Him. Sinners who now see themselves for what they really are (vile sinners who deserve God’s eternal wrath) don’t want to continue in rebellion and sin against God, they want to change. They want His mercy. See Luke 18:9-14, Luke 23:40-43.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

I believe Paul C is questioning if you believe God is the author of evil.

No. I believe that God only allowed our evil into His creation to reveal His glory to us more clearly. For example, without evil, we humans would not have the ability to fully comprehend God’s goodness. If there is no injustice, then we can’t comprehend His perfect justice. If there is no condemnation, then we can’t comprehend His wonderful mercy, etc.

One of God’s divine attributes is that He is good seeming from His perfection. He cannot be both good and evil. God’s attributes cannot be separated since that would be a limitation and a limitation would mean that he is finite. Since God’s attributes cannot be separated, His justice is His Mercy. He’s both Judge and Savior.

If you are saying that there is no conflict between His justice and His mercy, then I agree.

I’m sure that God foreknew but did He predetermine it?

God not only foreknew that we would fall into sin, it was His intention to use our evil for His own glory. If God had wanted, He could have created creatures resembling human beings…incorruptible creatures who never could and thus never would sin. But God wanted to create human beings instead of incorruptible creatures that resemble human beings.

Then why does He only save the elect since He is all powerful?

This passage from Rom. 9 might shed some light on your question:

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Scripture tells us He desires all men to be saved.

It is true that God, who is merciful, doesn’t take any delight in the fact that most people will spend eternity in horrible suffering, but God also desires to demonstrate His perfect justice. I see no conflict between these two desires.

God is indeed all powerful and in His sovereignty, He gave men free will. You’ve agreed that God doesn’t want to force men to love Him, that omission suggests some free will on man’s part is involved.

True. Adam and Eve truly had free will before the fall. They were created with free will but they lost it in the very first sin. All of their offspring are born in a state of hostility toward God. There is no neutral attitude toward God. Every individual is either for Him or against Him. We are born into sinful rebellion against God. The Pelagian view is a denial of the universal falleness of mankind. I love God, not because He forced me to love Him, but because He supernaturally–through regeneration of the Spirit, caused me to want what is truly good (God).

Catholics believe in original sin (not total depravity), meaning that mankind has a tendency towards evil. Mankind never lost his free will, which God created by His sovereignty in our first parents.

The only thing that is “free” about our (post fall) will, is that we have the ability to choose in accordance with our desires. But that is not good news if we no longer desire (want or will) that which is truly good. If fallen mankind is born into rebellion and hostility toward God, then how can it be consistent to say that our will (our wants, our desires), are still free? No, we are born into slavery to our own sinful desires–the desires of the flesh.

The Book of Romans tell us that each person has God’s laws written in his heart.

True. And thus we sin without excuse, for we KNOW that we do evil when we break His laws.

Also, one of the effects of actual grace (the grace that precedes conversion or repentance) is the desire to do good.

I see it differently. I don’t think that God ever gives grace that is to no avail. The grace of regeneration always accomplishes the purpose for which it is given–a changed and regenerated soul that wants what is truly good (God).

I asked this before: God created Adam and Eve with a free will and He is sovereign. Did fallen Adam “unmake” God’s creation by removing his own free will?

No, Adam and Eve didn’t fully comprehend the loss of freedom. The concept of being in slavery to their own flesh was not really comprehensible to them before they ate the fruit. They had no experience with losing freedom, so they couldn’t comprehend what that loss would be like. No frame of reference existed by which to understand it.

I’m curious about what is the proof that a conversion experience is of divine origin.

There are good evidences that conversion is genuine, but we can have no proof. Only God has certainty. We must live by faith. The best evidence for genuine conversion is the kinds of changes in one’s life that follow genuine conversion.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

God desires all to be saved but He will not force Himself upon us.

I’m not sure what it means for God to “force Himself upon us” but the way I see it, the most horrible feature of every fallen sinner is the loss of freedom of the will. The “will” has to do with what we WANT or desire. If the will is no longer free to will that which is truly good, it is a sinful will. Isn’t that what we see in the world? To put it another way, wouldn’t the world be a kind of paradise if we humans still wanted (like Adam and Eve before they sinned) only that which is truly good?

When you wander away from God, are His graces pointless, useless, meaningless or lost? Indeed, God is faithful and He is ready to heap graces upon us.

No, it is His grace of perseverance that guides me back to Him every time I wander away. I am unfaithful, He is faithful. I wander away, He guides me back.

Catholics don’t view salvation as a one-time event but rather justification and sanctification are one process through a lifetime.

I view regeneration as a one-time supernatural event that has eternal effects on the soul. I view sanctification as our ongoing response to our regeneration (conversion to Christ). We love Him because He first loved us.

During our lifetime, God has granted us many graces to repent but if we refuse them, it is not God’s fault but ourselves. Does that help explain our point of view better?

No, the Catholic view is not easy to understand. The Catholic view is that God provides sufficient graces to EVERYONE for EVERYONE’S salvation, but only those who “cooperate” with such graces will be saved. But it is never explained what it is specifically in the “free will” of those who use their free will wisely that is different from those who use their free will unwisely. They think that “free will” is some kind of explanation for why some accept and others reject God, but in reality, it raises more questions than it answers, since it is never explained WHY certain people WANT to accept, while others WANT to reject Him.

Salvation isn’t the sole work of the individual cooperating with God’s grace. The fact that is God’s grace that grants us the desire to convert, the desire to do good, etc. and the fact that it is only under God’s grace, that our works have any merit. What would you say to the father of the Prodigal son? Was his gift of inheritance wasted on his son when he spent it on debauchery?

I would say that the inheritance wasn’t wasted if it in some way led to his son’s repentance. God often uses such things to humble His elect, and to bring them to repentance/conversion.

Catholics aren’t boasting about our salvation; it’s only through God’s benevolence that our works have merit. He suffered and died and redeemed all of humanity when He could’ve left us to our own devices. A cooperation with God’s grace doesn’t demean God but glorifies Him. Do you mind telling me more about your conversion?

I will tell you by private mail, more about my conversion from atheism/rebellion to Jesus. I would rather bring us back to the original topic, if possible.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

I agree with this. Yet, you know countless evangelicals are convinced they are going to heaven because of just such an experience.

True.

Mick, let me help you with this. A gift is freely given, with no strings attatched. Whether you use it or not, is up to you.

Yes. I might receive a new pink sweater as a Christmas gift. But if I don’t like the PINK sweater, you can be very sure that I won’t wear it anywhere. My resistance will be due to ME not liking it. As long as I don’t like it, the gift will not be used. But the grace of regeneration is a very different kind of gift. By definition, when God intervenes in the life of one of His lost sheep and regenerates the soul of that sinner, his or her soul is no longer resistant to God. The soul has been supernaturally changed forever. A changed person is the inevitable result.

If something is given to you with the requirement that you use it , it ceases to be a gift and becomes an obligation.

Very true!

God gives us graces through the sacraments. If we continually partake with an open heart, it is very likely that we will persevere to the end.

I believe that if this were true, it would give those who persevere to the end something to boast of in their salvation.

However, God does not force us to take his graces, which are freely given, and far from pointless… You take and use the graces as a function of your own will . Such is the nature of God’s gift.

But if it is our fallen will that makes us unwilling to accept what He offers, what then? If our will is unwilling to WANT what is good, or even to SEE good AS good, then all of us will use our “free” will to reject Him and His grace! If I hate to wear pink sweaters, then it would seem that my resistance to wanting to wear a pink sweater won’t go away unless somehow my attitude toward wearing pink sweaters changes. As things stand now, I WILL NOT wear a pink sweater. But God could decide that instead of forcing me (against my will) to wear a pink sweater, He could instead, change the way I view the wearing of a pink sweater. He could supernaturally change both me, and my attitudes on many things, even pink sweaters!

God does not force you to love him. He will not lose any that want to follow him, but he will allow those that want to separate from him to do so.

But as I’ve said, it is our sinful will (sinful desires) that make us hostile toward God. Sinful flesh only desires to continue to satisfy the sinful desires of the sinful flesh. Without the grace of regeneration, we are “free” only to continue in our sin and rebellion.

By the way, I agree that God is calling you back. That’s why you are here - to bring you into full communion with the church and to allow you to gain the graces from the sacraments. Can’t you see that yet? Trust me, many, many people have followed in this path.

I think that God already has me. And once again, you are still focused on how great your religion is. I prefer to praise God, for He alone is worthy!

 

[losh14]

Not trying to interrupt the flow of thought here, just wanted to toss in a few thoughts that might be of help. I’m also tied up with things that arise IRL so I won’t be able to contribute again until next week.

the most horrible feature of every fallen sinner is the loss of freedom of the will. The “will” has to do with what we WANT or desire. If the will is no longer free to will that which is truly good, it is a sinful will.

I think we’re touching on a key distinction in the understanding of man. Catholicism sees man as intrinsically good because we’re created in God’s image and likeness and for the purpose of Love, however we inherit a fallen nature out of Adam’s disobedience, which results from free will applied for selfishness. This inevitable failure is termed concupiscience or “proclivity to sin.” The analogue in Protestant (at least Calvinist) theology is “Total Depravity”, which I believe posits that humanity is rotten to the core regardless of condition of creation or purpose. Neither suggests that man is responsible for his own goodness (since the capacity to do good derives from being created in imago Dei and the grace that sustains His Creation) but rather that man is responsible for the choices made.

I’m not sure that’s exactly what you’re getting at when you state “if the will is no longer free to will that which is truly good, it is a sinful will,” but that’s my stab at trying to flesh this out.

One corollary to that, if the will is not free to choose good it cannot be free to choose evil - it really does not make a choice. Indeed, we hold that one of the conditions for sin is willfull intent - if one does not intend to commit the sin (and commits instead through accident or while not in control of one’s faculties). then no sin is committed.

Switching topics to a previous post of yours, there is actually room within Catholic theology to adhere to predestination of the elect, a perspective either called the Thomist or Augustinian view. Its opposite is the Molinist view which accords greater emphasis to free will. The distinction is one of degrees rather than diametric opposition (ie, less severe than that between Arminianism and Calvinism) and I honestly couldn’t explain as satisfactorily as a good treatise on the matter (Jimmy Akin’s “Salvation Controversy” is one source, Augustine’s “City of God” is a little braver).

Catholics who accept predestination are only forbidden from believing that God creates persons for the strict purpose of condemning them. It is acceptable to believe that if the elect are predestined to Heaven while the condemned suffer Hell, the latter suffer because of passive reprobation (as Augustine penned the term), not active reprobation.

And it is accurate to say that we believe Grace sufficient for salvation is extended to all though not effective for all - not because anything in Christ is lacking but because of what is lacking in those who suffer. I likewise puzzle at those who reject Christ consistently, but the reality of Hell persuades me that such exist.

Forgive me, that’s all I have time for. I’m doubly sorry I’ve not the time to reference exegetical nor ponder your (much appreciated) elucidation more thoroughly. I’ll hop back in a few days.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Not trying to interrupt the flow of thought here, just wanted to toss in a few thoughts that might be of help. I’m also tied up with things that arise IRL so I won’t be able to contribute again until next week.

I think we’re touching on a key distinction in the understanding of man. Catholicism sees man as intrinsically good because we’re created in God’s image and likeness and for the purpose of Love, however we inherit a fallen nature out of Adam’s disobedience, which results from free will applied for selfishness. This inevitable failure is termed concupiscience or “proclivity to sin.” The analogue in Protestant (at least Calvinist) theology is “Total Depravity”, which I believe posits that humanity is rotten to the core regardless of condition of creation or purpose. Neither suggests that man is responsible for his own goodness (since the capacity to do good derives from being created in imago Dei and the grace that sustains His Creation) but rather that man is responsible for the choices made.

I’m not sure that’s exactly what you’re getting at when you state “if the will is no longer free to will that which is truly good, it is a sinful will,” but that’s my stab at trying to flesh this out.

One corollary to that, if the will is not free to choose good it cannot be free to choose evil - it really does not make a choice. Indeed, we hold that one of the conditions for sin is willfull intent - if one does not intend to commit the sin (and commits instead through accident or while not in control of one’s faculties). then no sin is committed.

Switching topics to a previous post of yours, there is actually room within Catholic theology to adhere to predestination of the elect, a perspective either called the Thomist or Augustinian view. Its opposite is the Molinist view which accords greater emphasis to free will. The distinction is one of degrees rather than diametric opposition (ie, less severe than that between Arminianism and Calvinism) and I honestly couldn’t explain as satisfactorily as a good treatise on the matter (Jimmy Akin’s “Salvation Controversy” is one source, Augustine’s “City of God” is a little braver).

Catholics who accept predestination are only forbidden from believing that God creates persons for the strict purpose of condemning them. It is acceptable to believe that if the elect are predestined to Heaven while the condemned suffer Hell, the latter suffer because of passive reprobation (as Augustine penned the term), not active reprobation.

And it is accurate to say that we believe Grace sufficient for salvation is extended to all though not effective for all - not because anything in Christ is lacking but because of what is lacking in those who suffer. I likewise puzzle at those who reject Christ consistently, but the reality of Hell persuades me that such exist.

Forgive me, that’s all I have time for. I’m doubly sorry I’ve not the time to reference exegetical nor ponder your (much appreciated) elucidation more thoroughly. I’ll hop back in a few days.

Thanks losh. Its always a pleasure to get your take on things. I’m also going to be very busy for the next three or four days. I’m not likely to post very much for these next several days.

I really want to return to the main topic of this thread. That is what I’d like to do.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
I agree with this. Yet, you know countless evangelicals are convinced they are going to heaven because of just such an experience.

And that’s a significant problem for those that believe that once they have demonstrated faith, there is nothing more to do for salvation. Having been mislead into thinking that they demonstrated faith because they had a conversion experience, far too many are lost when they turn away from God in sin thinking that they are guaranteed heaven no matter what they do. Sola fide/OSAS unfortunately motivate complacency in terms of sin

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Mick, let me help you with this. A gift is freely given, with no strings attatched. Whether you use it or not, is up to you.

God intervenes in the life of every man. Every man has a conscience, after all. Some chose to follow it, others ignor it. And sure, on rare occasions, God reveals himself more vividly (like to St. Paul on the road to Damscusus or St. Bernadetter, who was visited by Mary 18 times at Lourdes), Yet the individual still needs to choose to follow. After all, St. Paul himself recognized the potential that if he failed to follow his calling, he would lose the salvation he preached to others. Grace makes you more receptive to follow Jesus and those graces are available through the sacraments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
If something is given to you with the requirement that you use it , it ceases to be a gift and becomes an obligation.

Good, so you recognize that if God forced you to follow him, then it would not be a gift any longer. right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
God gives us graces through the sacraments. If we continually partake with an open heart, it is very likely that we will persevere to the end.

Those that persevere to the end are not the kind of people who are boastful. They are like Jesus, meek and humble of spirit. And they would recognize that they owe everything to God and would be thankful for his mercy, not boastful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
However, God does not force us to take his graces, which are freely given, and far from pointless… You take and use the graces as a function of your own will . Such is the nature of God’s gift.

That’s right, as you become more aware of the nature of God, your attitude will change about many things. But we never as a species fell into the total depravity envisioned by Calvin. There have always been acts of love mixed in with the hatred. Even at its zenith, when God chose to destroy the whole world with the flood, Noah was still righteous. And even when God destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah, Lot was found righteous and survived. And God never abandonned man. He speaks to every man through conscience and as long as man follows his conscience, he is not depraved but is in fact righteous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
God does not force you to love him. He will not lose any that want to follow him, but he will allow those that want to separate from him to do so.

We have sinful nature it is true, the result of original sin, but we also are born in the image of likeness of God and everything that God makes is good. And God offers the grace of regeneration to all through baptism.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
By the way, I agree that God is calling you back. That’s why you are here - to bring you into full communion with the church and to allow you to gain the graces from the sacraments. Can’t you see that yet? Trust me, many, many people have followed in this path.

Don’t be so presumptuous. Those that are truly saved are humble. And what I am telling you is that the sacraments provide the graces you need, and yes they are available only through the Catholic Church. This is not about the Chruch being great, but it having what every man needs: the truth and the sacraments. Be open to that.

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Don’t be so presumptuous. Those that are truly saved are humble. And what I am telling you is that the sacraments provide the graces you need, and yes they are available only through the Catholic Church. This is not about the Chruch being great, but it having what every man needs: the truth and the sacraments. Be open to that.

Hi Paul,

If the graces that are needed for salvation are only available in the Catholic church, then of course our worship, love, and devotion ought to be directed to the Catholic church. We ought to love the CC if it provides the graces that are necessary for salvation, for it would then be clear that the Catholic church is our savior.

The problem with your view is that it is against the teaching found in the bible, and it amounts to idol worship.

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul,

If the graces that are needed for salvation are only available in the Catholic church, then of course our worship, love, and devotion ought to be directed to the Catholic church. We ought to love the CC if it provides the graces that are necessary for salvation, for it would then be clear that the Catholic church is our savior.

The problem with your view is that it is against the teaching found in the bible, and it amounts to idol worship.

Mick, you are very confused about this. The church is a conduit for worshiping Jesus Christ. We don’t worship the church.

Forget the stereotype of Catholics being idol worshippers… It has no merit. It is only the claim of people who are predisposed to hate the church because they are separated from it…

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Hi Paul,

If the graces that are needed for salvation are only available in the Catholic church, then of course our worship, love, and devotion ought to be directed to the Catholic church. We ought to love the CC if it provides the graces that are necessary for salvation, for it would then be clear that the Catholic church is our savior.

The problem with your view is that it is against the teaching found in the bible, and it amounts to idol worship.

God isn’t constrained by the sacraments. He can give graces to whomever He will. His ordinary means of grace are within the Church however, and these graces aren’t exclusively from the Church herself but God whom works through His Bride. The Church isn’t my savior.

I’ll reply to your other posts later today and thank you for sharing your conversion story!

 

[Mick_Taylor]

And that’s a significant problem for those that believe that once they have demonstrated faith, there is nothing more to do for salvation. Having been mislead into thinking that they demonstrated faith because they had a conversion experience, far too many are lost when they turn away from God in sin thinking that they are guaranteed heaven no matter what they do. Sola fide/OSAS unfortunately motivate complacency in terms of sin.

Salvation isn’t given on the basis of how well we demonstrate faith by our conversion experience. It is given to people who God wants to show mercy to, and it is a gift that is never lost or taken away.

Titus 3:4-5
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy.

God intervenes in the life of every man. Every man has a conscience, after all. Some chose to follow it, others ignor it. And sure, on rare occasions, God reveals himself more vividly (like to St. Paul on the road to Damscusus or St. Bernadetter, who was visited by Mary 18 times at Lourdes), Yet the individual still needs to choose to follow. After all, St. Paul himself recognized the potential that if he failed to follow his calling, he would lose the salvation he preached to others. Grace makes you more receptive to follow Jesus and those graces are available through the sacraments.

So you believe that perseverance is from the will of the individual and not from the grace of God? If that is true, then those who persevere certainly have plenty to boast about in their salvation.

Good, so you recognize that if God forced you to follow him, then it would not be a gift any longer. right?

Since both you and I reject the notion that God forces anyone against their own will to follow Him, it is not very pertinent to this discussion whether it would still be a gift if it is forced.

Those that persevere to the end are not the kind of people who are boastful. They are like Jesus, meek and humble of spirit. And they would recognize that they owe everything to God and would be thankful for his mercy, not boastful.

You missed the whole point. I didn’t bring up the issue of boasting in connection with whether or not those who end up in heaven are the kinds of people that are boastful. I brought up the issue of boasting in connection with whether or not those who end up in heaven would have any reason for boasting. It is possible for a person to have good reasons for boasting about almost anything and still not boast. The issue has nothing to do with whether boasting in itself is good or bad, the issue is, do those who end up in heaven have any reason for boasting?

 

[Mick_Taylor]

Mick, you are very confused about this. The church is a conduit for worshiping Jesus Christ. We don’t worship the church.

When the Israelites constructed a golden calf and then worshiped it, do you think it would have excused them before God if they would have truly believed that the golden calf was a conduit for worshiping God?

Forget the stereotype of Catholics being idol worshippers… It has no merit. It is only the claim of people who are predisposed to hate the church because they are separated from it…

Again, you have missed the whole point. Human nature is such that whatever we trust in, for our salvation, whether it is a religion or a golden calf, any THING that we adore, worship, and depend upon for our salvation is an idol. We ought to worship God, and Him alone. He alone is worthy, and He alone is our salvation.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
And that’s a significant problem for those that believe that once they have demonstrated faith, there is nothing more to do for salvation. Having been mislead into thinking that they demonstrated faith because they had a conversion experience, far too many are lost when they turn away from God in sin thinking that they are guaranteed heaven no matter what they do. Sola fide/OSAS unfortunately motivate complacency in terms of sin.

.
Sure, he saved us out of his mercy, but once saved, we need to follow his example and lead the Christian life to go to heaven. Those that think they are guaranteed heaven because they’ve had the conversion experience and then fail to lead the Christian life will be condemned for wasting their salvation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
God intervenes in the life of every man. Every man has a conscience, after all. Some chose to follow it, others ignor it. And sure, on rare occasions, God reveals himself more vividly (like to St. Paul on the road to Damscusus or St. Bernadetter, who was visited by Mary 18 times at Lourdes), Yet the individual still needs to choose to follow. After all, St. Paul himself recognized the potential that if he failed to follow his calling, he would lose the salvation he preached to others. Grace makes you more receptive to follow Jesus and those graces are available through the sacraments

.
Did you read what I said above? Yes, perseverance is from the will of the individual but Grace makes you more receptive to persevere. And why do you want everyone to boast? Those that will reach heaven, won’t boast. They will know they owe it all to God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Good, so you recognize that if God forced you to follow him, then it would not be a gift any longer. right?

. Of course its pertinent. The point is that If you are compelled to go to heaven or to hell, its no longer a gift but an obligation. The gift is that youu are offered the chance to go to heaven and you must decide to do it as demonstrated through your actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Those that persevere to the end are not the kind of people who are boastful. They are like Jesus, meek and humble of spirit. And they would recognize that they owe everything to God and would be thankful for his mercy, not boastful

. The point I’m making is that the ones who get to heaven will KNOW they have no reason to boast before God, who gave them everything and made their entrance into heaven possible. That is the point brought out scripture. No one has a reason to boast before God. Well there is merit on the part of the individual, that does not equate to the ability to boast to God. Any one who would do that is a fool and will definitely not be humble enough to enter heaven.