Info on SDA

[Protestant101]

maryrose, thank you. i have seen a refutation of SDA theology, so eloquently put. and so soundly silenced. gonna wait to see how they refute your reasoning. it looks rock solid to me. looking forward to the debate. as protestant 101 stated it is a question of authority. and the SDA does not have the authority of Christ, or his apostles. but theology is also important. and again thank you. only so much can be done with a high school education…

Well; making the claim of “authority” and actually having the authority are not the same things; and as far as the theology so eloquently stated to the point of “silencing” us; that just has not happened.

 

[Protestant101]

Where did your bible come from?

What is the “authoritative” manuscript you depend on? How did it come to be? By what authority do you recognize it?

My point is not to discuss these issues here… but to show that claiming the bible as your sole authority sounds reasonable and simple, at least until you try to define “Bible”.

MarysRoses

This is quite true. people should realize the FULL extent of what you intimate here though. When a Catholic says “Bible” they mean something much different than a Protestant when they say “Bible.” Catholics mean more yet, than the Word of God and the Apocrypha even; for they also add “Tradition” (holy) and “Magisterium” when they say “Bible” and now we see how it becomes clear that with Catholics; it is a matter of a claimed authority, which they perceive in saying what is truth/error.

The Bible was written by many different authors, from many different times and places; for any one Church to try claiming they wrote God’s word, is just not true. I don’t think you can find that even in your own official teachings.

 

[Protestant101]

So are any of the 10 commandments part of the natural law?
If so, which ones?

How can you claim there are 'two different laws" when you keep saying to Adventists that it’s all one law and that we should not say there are two different laws? There are a lot of holes in your “theology.” I don’t think you even reflect offical Catholic teachings on that note either. No wonder you “silence” people. They want to go where they will get the truth.

 

[me_again]

Maybe when I was a child I just accepted what someone else told me. I have read these scriptures. It seems to me that the Catholic view of the Sabbath relies on sources other than the Bible for support. It does come down to authority but it is the Catholic Church that is claiming the authority, not the Adventist Church. Reading and following God’s word requires no authority.

The SDAs also follow the Sacred Tradition (oral teachings) of the Holy Roman Catholic Church e.g. it says nowhere in the scriptures that Jesus had no wife or children, but Catholicism’s Sacred Tradition teaches it – and the Adventists accept this oral teaching from Catholicism.

Many Protestant offshoots frequently “rediscover” what has been known in the Catholic Church since it’s inception by the Lord Jesus.

 

[CatholicLover]

The SDAs also follow the Sacred Tradition (oral teachings) of the Holy Roman Catholic Church e.g. it says nowhere in the scriptures that Jesus had no wife or children, but Catholicism’s Sacred Tradition teaches it – and the Adventists accept this oral teaching from Catholicism.

Many Protestant offshoots frequently “rediscover” what has been known in the Catholic Church since it’s inception by the Lord Jesus.

It also doesn’t say that Paul didn’t wear blue and yellow polka dotted robes… Are we following the teachings of the Catholic Church if we believe that Paul didn’t wear blue and yellow polka dotted robes?

 

[MarysRoses]

So are any of the 10 commandments part of the natural law?
If so, which ones?

It also doesn’t say that Paul didn’t wear blue and yellow polka dotted robes… Are we following the teachings of the Catholic Church if we believe that Paul didn’t wear blue and yellow polka dotted robes?

All of the 10 commandments contain this natural, moral law. Societies that permit murder (isn’t abortion killing an unborn child?), theft, adultery, don’t thrive. Even non Christian cultures reflect these deep, instinctive laws of morality or they don’t last.

But some things are ceremonial. It matters no more whether one worships on Saturday or Sunday than whether or not St. Paul wore blue and yellow polka dot robes. What mattters is that time is set aside for rest and worship.

MarysRoses

 

[Protestant101]

All of the 10 commandments contain this natural, moral law. Societies that permit murder (isn’t abortion killing an unborn child?), theft, adultery, don’t thrive. Even non Christian cultures reflect these deep, instinctive laws of morality or they don’t last.

But some things are ceremonial. It matters no more whether one worships on Saturday or Sunday than whether or not St. Paul wore blue and yellow polka dot robes. What mattters is that time is set aside for rest and worship.

MarysRoses

That is correct. The time that we set aside for the seventh-day Sabbath is very important. God says “the seventh day;” your church says the first day. Seventh-day Adventists are choosing what God says; and God does not call any of the ten commandments “natural law,” or “moral law.” And it’s not "the Jewish Sabbath - it is “the sabbath of the Lord thy God ;” and it’s not “the old covenant;” for the covenants were both just agreements about the law; they were not the law itself.

The only real reason you can claim for your Church’s Sunday keeping, is the authority which your church claims and tries to exercise.

 

[MarysRoses]

That is correct. The time that we set aside for the seventh-day Sabbath is very important. God says “the seventh day;” your church says the first day. Seventh-day Adventists are choosing what God says; and God does not call any of the ten commandments “natural law,” or “moral law.” And it’s not "the Jewish Sabbath - it is “the sabbath of the Lord thy God ;” and it’s not “the old covenant;” for the covenants were both just agreements about the law; they were not the law itself.

The only real reason you can claim for your Church’s Sunday keeping, is the authority which your church claims and tries to exercise.

you overlook the distinction between “The seventh day” and “Saturday”

Anyone can count out days and keep a cycle. This is natural, it is within nature. You can find it yourself. 'Saturday" depends on your calendar and your location. It cannot be found in nature, therefore it is not a part of natural law. The ceremonial requirements of the old law have passed away. The sabbath was a shadow of our eternal rest in Christ.

We keep the moral precept of the sabbath commandment by setting aside time for rest and worship on a regular basis. Catholics do this on Sunday, you keep it on Saturday.

insisting that one day of the week is superior to another contradicts St. Paul’s admonition to Christians debating this very topic in his time:

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,** God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

MarysRoses**

 

[Richard_Kastner]

If the sabbath was given to man at creation…

Are you saying it wasn’t given at creation?

Genesis 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex.20
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

why is there no record of it being kept by people before moses?

Why do you think this should be some sort of criteria for not keeping the Sabbath?

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Gen4
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

1 John 3:4
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

To “rest” is to cease… thats what the word sabbath literally means. There is no record that God ended his rest and returned to “work”.

Why is this of any significance at all?

Why does commandment list the reason for sabbath observance as creation in exodus… for deliverance from Egypt in Deuteronomy? Why two different versions of this “immutable” “eternal” law that is so detailed it specifies a particular day of the week that is superior than others?

Just speculation. But I believe that God wanted to emphasise that He is not only our creator, but our Savior. The day is superior because God blessed it. See Gen.2:3 above

another question… if Saturday is the only proper day to fulfill the command to set aside time for rest and worship… How can you kn ow for sure which slice of time God recognizes as "Saturday’?

The bible tells us.

Luke 23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Jesus dies on the Preperation day, Friday, the women saw where he was laid returned “and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.” They came back and finished thier work on the first day, Sunday. Not only does this tell us that the Sabbath is between the preperation day (Friday), and the first day (Sunday), but it also tells us that the commandment had not been changed at Jesus death.

Heb.9
16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Gal.3
15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

The covenant was confirmed by the blood of Christ and can not be changed.
And as these vs.testify a testament can only be changed when the testator lives. After His death it is written in stone, so to speak.

 

[greggy53]

So you don’t think the Holy Spirit guides people who are not part of the Catholic Church?

As individuals of course, but their Churches are hoplessly divided. the fullness of truth is given only to the Catholic Church.

 

[greggy53]

lol, yes, that would present a problem on hypothetical dessert island. Luckily in the real world I have no such problem.

Not so sure about that. how do you know for certain that the day we call Saturday today (named after the Roman God Saturn) is the same day they called Sabbath 3000 years ago?..I don’t think anyone can know with any degree of certainty.

 

[me_again]

Maybe when I was a child I just accepted what someone else told me. I have read these scriptures. It seems to me that the Catholic view of the Sabbath relies on sources other than the Bible for support. It does come down to authority but it is the Catholic Church that is claiming the authority, not the Adventist Church. Reading and following God’s word requires no authority.
me again;6865934:

The SDAs also follow the Sacred Tradition (oral teachings) of the Holy Roman Catholic Church e.g. it says nowhere in the scriptures that Jesus had no wife or children, but Catholicism’s Sacred Tradition teaches it – and the Adventists accept this oral teaching from Catholicism.

Many Protestant offshoots frequently “rediscover” what has been known in the Catholic Church since it’s inception by the Lord Jesus.

It also doesn’t say that Paul didn’t wear blue and yellow polka dotted robes… Are we following the teachings of the Catholic Church if we believe that Paul didn’t wear blue and yellow polka dotted robes?

Mr. CatholicLover, you’re mixing apples and oranges when you mix the Catholic Churches teachings about the Lord Jesus (and the fact that He didn’t have a wife or children) with your analogy of the Apostle Paul wearing polka dotted robes. This is a sign of spiritual obstinacy. You mock Sacred Tradition from the apostles, yet you fully embrace Ellen Gould White’s non-biblical heresies. You have eyes to see, but you cannot see.

 

[CatholicLover]

Mr. CatholicLover, you’re mixing apples and oranges when you mix the Catholic Churches teachings about the Lord Jesus (and the fact that He didn’t have a wife or children) with your analogy of the Apostle Paul wearing polka dotted robes. This is a sign of spiritual obstinacy. You mock Sacred Tradition from the apostles, yet you fully embrace Ellen Gould White’s non-biblical heresies. You have eyes to see, but you cannot see.

I wasn’t mocking Sacred Tradition, I was making light of your statement. The Bible does not say Jesus had a wife or children; that’s why the belief exists that he didn’t. For Adventists it has little to do with Sacred Tradition and alot to do with the fact that we aren’t told that he did.

 

[CatholicLover]

Not so sure about that. how do you know for certain that the day we call Saturday today (named after the Roman God Saturn) is the same day they called Sabbath 3000 years ago?..I don’t think anyone can know with any degree of certainty.

It’s widely recognised that it is the same day. The Jewish calendar was well kept, do you think they would have lost track of a day that is so important to their faith?

 

[greggy53]

I wasn’t mocking Sacred Tradition, I was making light of your statement. The Bible does not say Jesus had a wife or children; that’s why the belief exists that he didn’t. For Adventists it has little to do with Sacred Tradition and alot to do with the fact that we aren’t told that he did.

Jesus did openly reccomend celibacy

Matt 19:12 For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.

Sacred tradition is developed with careful study of the scriptures over many centuries by thousands of people with the guidance of the Holy Spirit within the Church.

 

[greggy53]

It’s widely recognised that it is the same day. The Jewish calendar was well kept, do you think they would have lost track of a day that is so important to their faith?

It is recognized by those who wish it so. Calendars have changed many times over the centuries. You cannot know for certain,nor is it imperative that you should. A day set aside for rest and worship is a day set aside for rest and worship…A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Call it what you will.

 

[Protestant101]

you overlook the distinction between “The seventh day” and “Saturday”

Anyone can count out days and keep a cycle. This is natural, it is within nature. You can find it yourself. 'Saturday" depends on your calendar and your location. It cannot be found in nature, therefore it is not a part of natural law. The ceremonial requirements of the old law have passed away. The sabbath was a shadow of our eternal rest in Christ.

We keep the moral precept of the sabbath commandment by setting aside time for rest and worship on a regular basis. Catholics do this on Sunday, you keep it on Saturday.

insisting that one day of the week is superior to another contradicts St. Paul’s admonition to Christians debating this very topic in his time:

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,** God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[d]

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

MarysRoses**Adventists do not teach that one day is “superior over another.” We teach what the Bible teaches; and the Bible only teaches “the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” “Sunday” cannot be found either in what you call “natural law.” The text in Col you quote does not say: “don’t keep the seventh day Sabbath of the Lord thy God;” it just says don’t let people judge you for doing so.

 

[greggy53]

Adventists do not teach that one day is “superior over another.” We teach what the Bible teaches; and the Bible only teaches “the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” “Sunday” cannot be found either in what you call “natural law.” The text in Col you quote does not say: “don’t keep the seventh day Sabbath of the Lord thy God;” it just says don’t let people judge you for doing so.

You teach that one specific day of the week should be set aside for rest and worship. Marysroses used the word “superior” in that context. You teach what you believe the Bible says, but the church believes differently and the history of Christianity reinforces what the Church teaches. The Church has the authority to interpret, or make exception as the Holy Spirit guides her. There is a very well documented example of this in Acts 15.
The Bible cannot interpret itself. The Church has that authority and the Bible says so.

 

[Protestant101]

Not so sure about that. how do you know for certain that the day we call Saturday today (named after the Roman God Saturn) is the same day they called Sabbath 3000 years ago?..I don’t think anyone can know with any degree of certainty.

I don’t know how anyone can actually believe that time has somehw been lost or so mixed up that we have no idea just what day it really is. Certainly; if that was the case; it would be impossible for you to keep your Sunday Obligation; for Sunday would be lost in time too.

 

[Protestant101]

You teach that one specific day of the week should be set aside for rest and worship. Marysroses used the word “superior” in that context. You teach what you believe the Bible says, but the church believes differently and the history of Christianity reinforces what the Church teaches. The Church has the authority to interpret, or make exception as the Holy Spirit guides her. There is a very well documented example of this in Acts 15.
The Bible cannot interpret itself. The Church has that authority and the Bible says so.

The Bible can and does interpret itself - free and clear of all Church authority. I do not teach “one specific day;” but the Bible does. And it does so AFTER the crucifixion:

Act 13:44 And **the next **sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.