Info on SDA

[MarysRoses]

Adventists do not teach that one day is “superior over another.” We teach what the Bible teaches; and the Bible only teaches “the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” “Sunday” cannot be found either in what you call “natural law.” The text in Col you quote does not say: “don’t keep the seventh day Sabbath of the Lord thy God;” it just says don’t let people judge you for doing so.

You interpretation ignores the rest of the statement, that such sabbaths and new moons were SHADOWS of things to come. Argue it with St. Paul!

As for our keeping Sunday… we are not insisting that Adventists keep Sunday, only that as New Covenant Christians, we have the FREEDOM to do so, rather than be bound to the old testament day. Our bishops have the authority to set feast days (of which Sunday is chief) so there is no problem if there are local calendar problems that create a question of what is our proper day.

Catholics teach that CATHOLICS have an obligation to worship on Sunday, but that is a matter of Catholic church law, for Catholics. Not binding on non-Catholics like yourself.

You are free to keep the sabbath, but you are not free to judge us, and are actually acting contrary to scripture, to judge us negatively for keeping another day.

Saturday is an arbitrary distinction, based on local laws and culture, therefore a specific day cannot be the intention of the commandment, for it is not found in nature.

If you think its easy to identify the correct day of the week consider the following:

In our modern world the sabbath begins at the international dateline, then follows around the world through the 24 time zones.

In the eastern Hemisphere, the saturday/sabbath falls BEFORE sabbath begins in Jerusalem. YET … many Jewish rabbis point out this is contrary to the talmud and sabbath starts in Jerusalem, then follows around the world. The bible, existing long before the arbitrary dateline is silent on the issue. Adventists follow the dateline, other sabbath keepers, Jewish and Christian, follow Jerusalem as the beginning. Who is correct? Who can say? Who has the authority to settle the issue. If it is a matter of moral law to keep specifically Saturday as the sabbath, someone will have to figure out which approach is correct.

Adventists follow the dateline in keeping their sabbath.
Yet, when the local calendar changes, as it has several times in the areas around the dateline, they follow the local calendar.

Only a few years ago, the government of Kiribati, and island nation in the South Pacific, moved the dateline, by govermental decree to the east, so that all of the islands making up the nation, would be on the same calendar day, to simplify commerce and governing.
That is reasonable, consider the headache of governing, if there were two different dates in the same country at the same time! Adventists followed this calendar change.

Adventists in Kiribati go to church on their Saturday… even though at the same exact time on the same line of longitude a few hundred miles to the north, it is Friday in Hawaii and Adventists are hard at work preparing for their sabbath, which is still in the future.

Think about this… the very SAME sunset that ENDS the Sabbath for kiribatian Adventists… BEGINS the Sabbath for Hawaiian Adventists…

I have pointed this inconsistency out Many MANY times on this forum, no adventist wants to tackle this difficult problem of theirs.

Evidently, this eternal, immutable law they like to talk about is easily changed by any civil government!

phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl_kiribati.htm

And interestingly, there are both Catholics and Adventists living on Kiribati. According to a forum member who lives on Kiribati, a Catholic who has adventist relatives… both groups follow the local calendar. That means at the very same time…while SDA people on Kiribati are “keeping” the sabbath on Saturday, local time, Adventists just north of them in Hawaii are busily working on their Friday, local time, to get ready for their sabbath the “next” day.

MarysRoses

 

[greggy53]

I don’t know how anyone can actually believe that time has somehw been lost or so mixed up that we have no idea just what day it really is. Certainly; if that was the case; it would be impossible for you to keep your Sunday Obligation; for Sunday would be lost in time too.

And you are trying to tell me that over thousands of years of human history with hundreds of cultures, and languages that there hasn’t been any error and the seven days of the week have been accurately counted ever since??..You can tell me you accept that in faith, but there is no way you can be certain. Indeed odds are knowing the human propensity for error there is a very good chance that you are actually worshipping on Thursday!
No it would not be impossible for me to keep my Sunday obligation because the Church is there with the authority to designate. You have no such Church or authority so you are stuck. You are either right and Saturday today is the exact same day as it was in antiquity or you are doomed because you are worshipping on the wrong day.

 

[greggy53]

The Bible can and does interpret itself - free and clear of all Church authority. I do not teach “one specific day;” but the Bible does. And it does so AFTER the crucifixion:

Act 13:44 And **the next **sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Does the Bible have eyes? Does the Bible have ears?. Can a book read and meditate upon itself? Bibles are paper and ink. It is not the book itself that means anything, but the information contained in it. In order to retrieve that information a human being must read it with eyes and discern what it says. Only a sentient being can interpret it

Yes you teach one “specific” day. It’s your interpretation of what you believe the Bible says. Not necessarily the truth.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You interpretation ignores the rest of the statement, that such sabbaths and new moons were SHADOWS of things to come. Argue it with St. Paul!

The sabbaths talked about in Col.2 were shadows (prophetic) yearly sabbaths. When Jesus came He completed the prophecy. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom and there was no more need for the prophetic sabbaths.The seventh day Sabbath is not a shadow of anything. It is a COMMANDMENT OF GOD.

As for our keeping Sunday… we are not insisting that Adventists keep Sunday, only that as New Covenant Christians, we have the FREEDOM to do so, rather than be bound to the old testament day.

But you do insist that Catholics keep the Sunday under penalty of sin. Thinking to substitute the sanctity of the Sabbath to the Sunday. Thereby attempting to usurp the power of God. The Sabbath is still the Sabbath of the Lord thy God that will never change. The laws of the old testament are the same laws of the new testament.

Our bishops have the authority to set feast days (of which Sunday is chief) so there is no problem if there are local calendar problems that create a question of what is our proper day.

Your bishops have no authority to change a law of God.

Catholics teach that CATHOLICS have an obligation to worship on Sunday,

Ya that’s the whole point of this discusion. While it is certainly ok to worship God on any day, you have no authority to change the sanctity of the day.

You are free to keep the sabbath, but you are not free to judge us, and are actually acting contrary to scripture, to judge us negatively for keeping another day.

The bible warns against judging (condemning) because that is the sole perogative of God.

Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

But it encourages, no commands, us to make disserning righteous judgements.

1.Leviticus 19:15
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

1 Corinthians 6:2
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Saturday is an arbitrary distinction, based on local laws and culture, therefore a specific day cannot be the intention of the commandment, for it is not found in nature.

“Saturday is an arbitrary distinction” Now there’s an oxymoron if I ever head one. Saturday is the word used to designate the seventh day in the weekly cycle.

If you think its easy to identify the correct day of the week consider the following:

Not that hard you can look at just about any calender.

In our modern world the sabbath begins at the international dateline, then follows around the world through the 24 time zones.

In the eastern Hemisphere, the saturday/sabbath falls BEFORE sabbath begins in Jerusalem. YET … many Jewish rabbis point out this is contrary to the talmud and sabbath starts in Jerusalem, then follows around the world. The bible, existing long before the arbitrary dateline is silent on the issue. Adventists follow the dateline, other sabbath keepers, Jewish and Christian, follow Jerusalem as the beginning. Who is correct? Who can say? Who has the authority to settle the issue. If it is a matter of moral law to keep specifically Saturday as the sabbath, someone will have to figure out which approach is correct.

Adventists follow the dateline in keeping their sabbath.
Yet, when the local calendar changes, as it has several times in the areas around the dateline, they follow the local calendar.

Only a few years ago, the government of Kiribati, and island nation in the South Pacific, moved the dateline, by govermental decree to the east, so that all of the islands making up the nation, would be on the same calendar day, to simplify commerce and governing.
That is reasonable, consider the headache of governing, if there were two different dates in the same country at the same time! Adventists followed this calendar change.

Adventists in Kiribati go to church on their Saturday… even though at the same exact time on the same line of longitude a few hundred miles to the north, it is Friday in Hawaii and Adventists are hard at work preparing for their sabbath, which is still in the future.

Think about this… the very SAME sunset that ENDS the Sabbath for kiribatian Adventists… BEGINS the Sabbath for Hawaiian Adventists…

I have pointed this inconsistency out Many MANY times on this forum, no adventist wants to tackle this difficult problem of theirs.

Evidently, this eternal, immutable law they like to talk about is easily changed by any civil government!

phys.uu.nl/~vgent/idl/idl_kiribati.htm

And interestingly, there are both Catholics and Adventists living on Kiribati. According to a forum member who lives on Kiribati, a Catholic who has adventist relatives… both groups follow the local calendar. That means at the very same time…while SDA people on Kiribati are “keeping” the sabbath on Saturday, local time, Adventists just north of them in Hawaii are busily working on their Friday, local time, to get ready for their sabbath the “next” day.

MarysRoses

Ya, you see Maryroses all this is irrelevant. The fact is that if you are truly trying to keep the Sabbath day. then you are keeping the Sabbath day. See although the day is important. It is only used to find out to whom your allegiance is. Whether it is to the dictates of man (Sunday) or allegiance to God (Sabbath)

 

[greggy53]

Ya, you see Maryroses all this is irrelevant. The fact is that if you are truly trying to keep the Sabbath day. then you are keeping the Sabbath day. See although the day is important. It is only used to find out to whom your allegiance is. Whether it is to the dictates of man (Sunday) or allegiance to God (Sabbath)

Why do you assume the dictates of God and man must be opposed to each other? We see no such thing in the Church. Christ and his Church are one.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Why do you assume the dictates of God and man must be opposed to each other? We see no such thing in the Church. Christ and his Church are one.

The dictates of God and man don’t have to be in opposition, but on this matter of the Sabbath they are and God is stil soveriegn, so He gets to set the day.

 

[greggy53]

The dictates of God and man don’t have to be in opposition, but on this matter of the Sabbath they are and God is stil soveriegn, so He gets to set the day.

We disagree. Jesus said tha ALL power in heaven and earth was given to him. He in turn gave his power and authority to His Church. There is no conflict except for the one the SDA has invented.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

We disagree. Jesus said tha ALL power in heaven and earth was given to him. He in turn gave his power and authority to His Church. There is no conflict except for the one the SDA has invented.

Jesus gave no power to His church to change His law. The CC has thought to usurp that power by a wresting of Matt.16. But we know what happens to those who wrest scripture

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[CatholicLover]

I did a bit of research on the internet looking for information on the subject of how we can be sure that what we know as Saturday is the orignal Sabbath as decreed by God. I found this wonderfully written article that was published in “The Catholic Mirror” (now the Catholic Review) in 1893. It deals with a debate which apparently took place in the US Supreme Court between various Protestant Churches and the US Congress about whether Congress should fund the Worlds Fair of that year if it remained open on Sunday (their claimed sabbath). It is quite evident that the author had a great deal of fun poking the Protestants and although it’s long, it’s a good read. I’ll try to paraphrase the content of the series of articles although I doubt I’ll be as entertaining.

The Catholic Mirror was apparently the official paper (or newsletter) of Cardinal Gibbons in the Archdiocese of Baltimore. The author points to the fact that Protestant Churches love to trumpet their use of the Bible Only as their Teacher and denounces the traditions of the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church’s authority. He then points out that Seventh Day Adventists (as Protestants) keep the 7th day as Sabbath and either the Adventists or the rest of the Protestant churches must be wrong. So the argument is set up.

He thoroughly looks at each of the verses in the Bible that mention Sabbath, Sunday and The Lord’s Day and debates their meaning. Anyway, long story short his conclusion is that nowhere in the Bible is the 7th day Sabbath changed to Sunday and that Protestants (other than Adventists) if they insist on using only the Bible as their teacher cannot justify not keeping the 7th day Sabbath Holy. In fact, by worshipping on Sunday they are acknowledging the very authority that the Catholic Church claims and they are protesting against.

It’s a very well laid out set of articles and worth the read. The articles do 3 things as they relate to our own discussion here regarding the Sabbath:

1 - The author removes all doubt about whether Saturday is actually the original Sabbath day. (That’s what I was looking for in the first place, whether or not the Catholic Church acknowledges the day God created as the 7th day is actually our Saturday.)
2 - It goes over ever part of the argument we have been having in a thorough and (in my mind) entertaining way.
3 - Comes to the same conclusion many of us here have come to. Without either Adventists believing the Catholic Church had the authority to change God’s law OR Catholics believing the Catholic Church doesn’t have the authority to change God’s law, we are unlikely to agree.

Here’s the link: biblelight.net/chalng.htm

I’m not sure who owns the website so here is another link to the original document for those of you who might doubt the intentions of the owner of the website. biblelight.info/Sources/Christian-Sabbath.pdf

 

[CatholicLover]

I also found the editors note interesting (editor of the website I believe) that immediately follows the Conclusion of the article relating to what occured at the Council of Trent.

 

[Javl]

It’s widely recognised that it is the same day. The Jewish calendar was well kept, do you think they would have lost track of a day that is so important to their faith?

Maybe in your, or the SDA’s, eyes. The Jews kept the “calendar” only after the Exodus, because of Passover. It’s first official “holiday”. And Saturday was designated as the Sabbath ONLY after Julius Caesar named it so. The day had no name before then. Please check and read your history.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[greggy53]

Jesus gave no power to His church to change His law. The CC has thought to usurp that power by a wresting of Matt.16. But we know what happens to those who wrest scripture
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

We disagree. Jesus said that all power in heaven and earth was given to him. Do the SDA believe this? He then gave that power and authority to St Peter and the Apostles, the authority to bind and loose “whatsoever” in Heaven as well as earth. Do SDA accept this? He said that he would build his Church on the Rock called Peter. Does SDA accept this? Does SDA recognize and accept what Jesus plainly and directly said in the scriptures ? These are easy passages to read and understand except perhaps for the unlearned, and unstable.
The Church has compiled studied, meditated, translated and interpreted the scriptures for almost 2000 years.
So, who then is wresting scripture here ? consider:
2 peter 1: 1 9And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

 

[CatholicLover]

Maybe in your, or the SDA’s, eyes. The Jews kept the “calendar” only after the Exodus, because of Passover. It’s first official “holiday”. And Saturday was designated as the Sabbath ONLY after Julius Caesar named it so. The day had no name before then. Please check and read your history.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I can’t believe we are still debating this. The Isrealites were told which day is the 7th day Sabbath by God himself in the wilderness. The Catholic Church acknowledges the 7th day as Saturday and unchanged. Julius Caesar only changed the name of the day to Saturday.

Edit: Strike that last bit about Julius Caesar. He changed it from the Roman first day to the Roman 7th day. But that is not relevant to the discussion at hand as the Jewish calendar confirms Saturday as the 7th day Sabbath. You can count the days however you want but there is only one 7th day set aside by God and it is clear which day it is.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

We disagree. Jesus said that all power in heaven and earth was given to him. Do the SDA believe this?

Yes.

He then gave that power and authority to St Peter and the Apostles, the authority to bind and loose “whatsoever” in Heaven as well as earth. Do SDA accept this?

Yes. this does not however mean what the CC says it means. It means that He gave them the power to bind or loose people to the kingdom of God by either preaching or not preaching the words of Jesus (keys of the Kingdom)

He said that he would build his Church on the Rock called Peter. Does SDA accept this?

No this He did not do. The Rock upon which Jesus founded His church is Matt.16:16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Does SDA recognize and accept what Jesus plainly and directly said in the scriptures ?

Absolutely!

These are easy passages to read and understand except perhaps for the unlearned, and unstable.

Are you unleaned and unstable greggy

The Church has compiled studied, meditated, translated and interpreted the scriptures for almost 2000 years.

Ya, you would think that they would get it right after so many years.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I can’t believe we are still debating this. The Isrealites were told which day is the 7th day Sabbath by God himself in the wilderness. The Catholic Church acknowledges the 7th day as Saturday and unchanged. Julius Caesar only changed the name of the day to Saturday.

Edit: Strike that last bit about Julius Caesar. He changed it from the Roman first day to the Roman 7th day. But that is not relevant to the discussion at hand as the Jewish calendar confirms Saturday as the 7th day Sabbath. You can count the days however you want but there is only one 7th day set aside by God and it is clear which day it is.

I don’t get it Javl. So why do you keep the wrong day?

 

[me_again]

I don’t get it Javl. So why do you keep the wrong day?

Because in your SDA sect, Ellen White said that those who worship on Sunday have received the Mark of the Beast. And since you believe Ellen White’s words, you are bound to obey her.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Because in your SDA sect, Ellen White said that those who worship on Sunday have received the Mark of the Beast. And since you believe Ellen White’s words, you are bound to obey her.

You worship on the wrong day because Ellen White said not to? That’s the strangest reason I have ever heard. And rather silly I think. By the way Ellen White did not say that those who worship on Sunday have recieved the mark of the beast. That’s a lie fabricated by me again.

 

[greggy53]

Yes.
Yes. this does not however mean what the CC says it means. It means that He gave them the power to bind or loose people to the kingdom of God by either preaching or not preaching the words of Jesus (keys of the Kingdom) .

So you decide to insert restrictions into Jesus’ mandate. He did say “whatsoever”, You add and take away what you want, not what the scriptures say.

No this He did not do. The Rock upon which Jesus founded His church is Matt.16:16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. .

Lets finish the quote:
Matt: Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

No caveats or conditions there right?

Also in John he commands Peter (Not the others):

John21: "When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [16] He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. [17] He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep

Are you unleaned and unstable greggy.

Yes sir perhaps, but not his Church thank God!

Ya, you would think that they would get it right after so many years.

Yes you certainly would, and I believe they have.

 

[Protestant101]

No it would not be impossible for me to keep my Sunday obligation because the Church is there with the authority to designate. You have no such Church or authority so you are stuck. You are either right and Saturday today is the exact same day as it was in antiquity or you are doomed because you are worshipping on the wrong day.

As I have mentioned before Marys Roses and Greggy53; although you have couched it in many different defenses and distractions; this whole Sabbath question really does boil down to the Catholic Church assuming authority to “designate” that which God has not. I am glad you have both come out with it; and when I next reply, I will AGAIN tackle this Kiribati problem which you keep saying “no Adventist wants to tackle.” No matter how many times we do address it, you just keep saying “no Adventist wants to address it;” so I am left wondering several things. But I am not wondering about what I said about authority. That atleast is very clear - both from Catholic laity and leadership.

 

[me_again]

Because in your SDA sect, Ellen White said that those who worship on Sunday have received the Mark of the Beast. And since you believe Ellen White’s words, you are bound to obey her.
Richard Kastner;6869309:

You worship on the wrong day because Ellen White said not to? That’s the strangest reason I have ever heard. And rather silly I think. By the way Ellen White did not say that those who worship on Sunday have recieved the mark of the beast. That’s a lie fabricated by me again.

Richard, it’s not a lie. Ellen Gould White claimed to have a vision about it and here’s a cut-and-paste of what she wrote (the poor grammar is her own):

“I saw all that ‘would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,’ could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; and that it was the beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope’s, and not God’s Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God’s Sabbath, and keep the Pope’s and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his Image.”

You can read more about Ellen White’s loony visions and her loony writings here:
whiteestate.org/books/egwhc/EGWHCc18.html