Info on SDA

[RonTheNewJew]

shema y’Isrel. adonai elahinu, adonia eghad. forgive my spelling my hebrew prayer book is back in the united states. anyhow. thank you i appreciate you answer in reguards to moses speaking to the rock. maybe i missed it. but the main gist of my question had to do with the two men executed for picking up sticks. you stated the execution was “illegal”. my question was, why did God not confront moses for so grievious an error, that cost two human lives. if moses was acting contrary to the law he had just recieved, why did God not correct him? shalom

Hi Benedict,
I can’t answer for God. He is Sovereign. But, just sort of speculating, Moses may not have been near. I can’t recall if the two men put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath may have had something to do with their attitude toward the Sabbath. It might have been like it was in the wilderness for forty years when the people picked up mannah each day, but a double portion on Friday, the preparation day for the Sabbath rest. If people just kept on trying to pick up the old, stale mannah during the Sabbath, that might have indicated an major rebellious attitude toward God.

As it was, Moses, who had tremendous responsibilities, had to have judges appointed over the people to decide normal day-to-day disputes. And, when he struck the rock the second time instead of speaking to it, God did not allow Moses to enter the promised land. That was punishment, yet Moses was with Yeshua on the mount of transfiguration.

That’s about the best I can do. God is the Judge.

 

[RonTheNewJew]

It is very difficult to follow this. It isn’t the subject of thi
s thread but it would make an interesting subject of how many covenants there are. I count more that two. Obviously the law could be change otherwise we wouldn’t mix materials, eat pork, and circumcise plus other laws. I would agree with you that Jesus obeyed the laws even unto death. That doesn’t mean that they are still in effect. As another pointed out, Jesus said they would remain UNTIL all was fulfilled upon the cross.

If I understand you correctly, about why Jesus died, you do not understand His death. What you claim is unsubstantiated. I do not see in the Bible that Pentecost was paid by tithes nor did it have anything to do with the poor and widows.
Is this belief of SDA?

Hi Adrift.
As I understand it, Jesus said that, for example, “One jot or tittle of the Law shall in no wise pass away until all is fulfilled.” The KJV and texts that led up to it, say that. They do not say “until all is fulfilled at the cross.” At the Last Seder, many of the steps recorded in Luke, but additional descriptions of it in the other Gospels, Jesus said “I have longed to eat this Passover with you. For, I shall not again eat of it until all is fulfilled in the Kingdom.” Here, Jesus is saying that not all wll be fulfilled until the New Jerusalem descends to earth after the White Throne Judgement.

I think that, and this is just my speculative opinion, the Bible, as a whole, is one book by one Author who has never changed and will never change. Both the first Covenant, with man’s promises and ratified by an animal sacrifice, and the second one made with Moses, but then with the statutes and judgements that God the Son spoke and Moses wrote, and later put into the sides (that’s leaning against one wall of the inside of the Ark of the Covenant), was not ratified until Jesus’s own blood ratifed it on the cross. That was the ratification of the Everlasting Covenant. There were four repetitions of the Covenant, starting with Adam and Eve after they sinned. It was ratified by the sacrifice of an animal after God spoke the Ten Commandments to them

The ratificaton of the second, or “new” Covenant was made at the same time that the “New Testament” time period began, even though it had existed for something like about 1,400 years if I recall correctly.

 

[Protestant101]

With due respect you did not answer my question. The question was specific - Can you name any person who lived during apostolic times who witnessed to the existence and doctrines of SDA? I want to know because I’m interested to learn what they say. Throwing back the question to me is not an answer but I can name you quickly Policarp, Clement, Tertullian, Iraneus, etc. etc. You can research them and see for yourself how they witnessed to the existence of the Catholic Church and its doctrines. They also believed in the Holy Eucharist – the true Body and Blood of our Lord. Again, if you are sincere (only you and God know what’s in your heart) in seeking Jesus, the Holy Spirit will guide you to the Truth just as he did to Cardinal Newmann, Scott Hahn, SDA2RC, and others. Debating leads us nowhere.
God bless.

You are doing a nice job of “debating” my friend. It is interesting that when you go back in history, just a bit further than these Roman Catholic greats that you mentioned; we can see the Apostles themselves; along with Jesus preaching and practicing Adventist doctrines; especially the Sabbath, the second coming, judgment, and a few others. But I can name names from the OT that would also reflect Adventist teachings.

I know that Roman Catholic apoligetics prides itself in being able to trap Protestants with their history argument; but that is the one that worries me the least.

 

[Protestant101]

The New Covenant has nothing to do with the Lord’s order for the Jews to honor the Saturday sabbath since they were slaves in Egypt. Here is what our Lord specifically said about it**:**
Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

The great theme of redemption is behind each of the ten commandments. This text in Deuteronomy says nothing about the Sabbath being just for the Jews. It only says that because God is the One who saved them from the Egyptians; that they should recognize His sovereignty and salvation by keeping the Sabbath for all christians who keep the seventh day Sabbath, even today do so as a mark or sign of God’s authority.

 

[benidict]

Hi Benedict,
I can’t answer for God. He is Sovereign. But, just sort of speculating, Moses may not have been near. I can’t recall if the two men put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath may have had something to do with their attitude toward the Sabbath. It might have been like it was in the wilderness for forty years when the people picked up mannah each day, but a double portion on Friday, the preparation day for the Sabbath rest. If people just kept on trying to pick up the old, stale mannah during the Sabbath, that might have indicated an major rebellious attitude toward God.

As it was, Moses, who had tremendous responsibilities, had to have judges appointed over the people to decide normal day-to-day disputes. And, when he struck the rock the second time instead of speaking to it, God did not allow Moses to enter the promised land. That was punishment, yet Moses was with Yeshua on the mount of transfiguration.

That’s about the best I can do. God is the Judge.

interesting. thank you for your response. what may i ask did your rabbi teach on this passage though, before you converted to Christ? im sure he would have gone into these things at the weekly torah study. just for the burning bush and the name God gave moses to give to the people, has alot of different inferences. you stated moses acted “illegaly” i dont see how. i think he acted as the law demanded he acted. since the moral law is still in effect. with all its penalties. how do you feel about witches being burned alive? im not being silly here. i really want to know if you truly believe the entire moral code is still in force. did the “witches” at salem deserve what they got? did the protestant pastors who murdered them act justly? according to old testament law, they did! also, what about some things in the cerimonial law? such as, if you cannot find wine for the festival, because you are not near the city. find another intoxicating liquor. will have to find that passage for you. its a lesser known part of the law. we can go into all sorts of issues here. i love it. i love the law. seriously considered converting to Judaism myself earlier in my life. and i still maintain a love and respect for Gods Chosen. Peace

 

[benidict]

The great theme of redemption is behind each of the ten commandments. This text in Deuteronomy says nothing about the Sabbath being just for the Jews. It only says that because God is the One who saved them from the Egyptians; that they should recognize His sovereignty and salvation by keeping the Sabbath for all christians who keep the seventh day Sabbath, even today do so as a mark or sign of God’s authority.

sorry. no other people were commanded to keep the sabbath my friend. ONLY the Jews. in our continuing discussions, the Adventist keep stating we have not yet recieved the mark of the beast for worshipping on sunday. but then comments like this are made to show you believe just the opposite. these are E.G. Whites interpretations. and any seal or sign that was made for the Jews, was for the Jews. the seal of his covenant with israel, is circumsion. do the Adventist enforce this? Peace

 

[Protestant101]

Matt 5:17-19 is actually a key verse for refuting the Adventist position. Jesus says that not one jot or tittle will pass from the law UNTIL all is fulfilled. This implies that a point WILL come when ALL IS fulfilled.

Let’s look at texts like Heb 7:12, 2 Cor 3:6-14; Heb 7:12; John 19:28-3, and Acts 15 (where a law given directly by God to Abraham, and called a perpetual law for ALL Abraham’s generations, is abolished by a council of the Church.) Here we get told directly that the law HAS changed (those are the words straight from Hebrews,) so we HAVE to wonder what Jesus meant. He said the heavens and the earth would be replaced with a NEW heaven and a NEW earth in that text, and only THEN could the law change, and here we see the law has changed ALREADY … so what he said MUST have come to pass … so, did we just miss the end of the world, or not?

Well; if we look around us - even in many churches, we can sure see how the seventh commandment has been “changed;” but lets be real; is this change from God?

 

[benidict]

Well; if we look around us - even in many churches, we can sure see how the seventh commandment has been “changed;” but lets be real; is this change from God?

the commandment of circumcision sure was. and by the apostles authority given by Christ, yes, this change was of God. also with the Lords day. the apostles successors have the same authority. and they deemed it a good thing to worship on Lords day. was this change of God? certainly. it all comes down to who the authority is. Christ who gave the authority to his apostles, or false prophets who twist the scripture to their own use. Peace

 

[benidict]

just for grins and giggles. can someone please tell me, how many Seventh Day Adventist fought in the revolutionary war? how many Mormons. we wont include the Jehovahs Witnesses because they are a peace church. im just curious. Peace

 

[me_again]

Adventist doctrines can be traced back to Genesis,

Ellen White appears during a failed promise of the Second Coming in 1844 – and now Adventist are claiming that their doctrines go all the way back to Genesis? :tsktsk:

 

[Richard_Kastner]

sorry. no other people were commanded to keep the sabbath my friend. ONLY the Jews. in our continuing discussions, the Adventist keep stating we have not yet recieved the mark of the beast for worshipping on sunday. but then comments like this are made to show you believe just the opposite. these are E.G. Whites interpretations. and any seal or sign that was made for the Jews, was for the Jews. the seal of his covenant with israel, is circumsion. do the Adventist enforce this? Peace

Gen.2
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Were Adam and Eve Jews Ben

Do yo think that all of the commandments were given to just the Jews and Christians don’t have to keep the commandments?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Ellen White appears during a failed promise of the Second Coming in 1844 – and now Adventist are claiming that their doctrines go all the way back to Genesis? :tsktsk:

Always did claim that.

 

[me_again]

When you go back in history, just a bit further than these Roman Catholic greats that you mentioned; we can see the Apostles themselves; along with Jesus preaching and practicing Adventist doctrines;

Wow, this really sounds like a cult mentality. Adventism didn’t appear until the 1800s, but you’re saying that Jesus and His apostles were teaching SDA doctrines. That’s an ill informed statement.

 

[me_again]

This text in Deuteronomy says nothing about the Sabbath being just for the Jews. It only says that because God is the One who saved them from the Egyptians; that they should recognize His sovereignty and salvation by keeping the Sabbath for all christians.

Let’e re-read the quote that you’re referring to from Deuteronomy to see if it says what you claim in your false SDA doctrine**:**

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

This scripture says that:

1. Because the Jews were slaves
2. And because the Lord freed them from slavery
3. The Jews shall keep the Saturday sabbath day as a sign between Him and them.

It says nothing about Christians keeping the Jewish Saturday sabbath.

 

[me_again]

Gen.2
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Were Adam and Eve Jews

Do yo think that all of the commandments were given to just the Jews and Christians don’t have to keep the commandments?

It’s a memorial of creation. God did not create the world in eight days. He created it in seven days. His creation had to stop somewhere. For you to hypothesize that since it only took God seven days to create the world that that means that it’s His order for Christians to worship Him only on Saturday is a classic SDA cult teaching. Exactly who did God order to worship Him on Saturday? The Lord ordered the Jews to keep the Saturday sabbath after He rescued them from slavery in Egypt. Here are His words**:**

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

When Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week, His Apostles began celebrating His resurrection on that day**:**

1. The Sunday resurrection is a celebration of eternal life and eternal rest in Jesus.
2. The Saturday sabbath is a sign of God rescuing Jews from slavery in Egypt.
3. Jesus rescued us from death on Sunday.
4. God rescued Jews from slavery on Saturday.

Put your trust in Jesus and not what day of the week it is.

 

[Javl]

Actually, the key to your statement is ROMAN CATHOLIC HISTORY. Adventist doctrines can be traced back to Genesis, which is well before Pentecost. And I might add that not all Roman Catholic beliefs were born at Pentecost! Some came years later.

It should be CATHOLIC history. The Roman Catholic Church is but a PART of the Catholic Church which comprises both Eastern and Western Churches. You are correct that not ALL Catholic beliefs, doctrines, and dogmas were born at Pentecost. The MAJORITY are from Genesis. Remember, Christianity is a fulfillment and continuation of Judaism plus the teachings and truths of Jesus and the Catholic Church is the FIRST Christian Church.

FYI: The Catholic Church existed long before the Roman Catholic Church. It was named Roman as a means of a derogatory insult by the “reformers” in the 16th century. Today the Church is called Roman because the See of Peter is in Rome. Also Roman Catholic is no longer consisdered derogatory.

 

[benidict]

Gen.2
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Were Adam and Eve Jews Ben

Do yo think that all of the commandments were given to just the Jews and Christians don’t have to keep the commandments?

lol! not a problem my friend. show me one verse that shows adam and eve kept the sabbath, or were commanded to do so. the commandments that God gave them were these. to be fruitful and multiply. also they could eat of any tree in the garden,except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. it appears, that God would enter the garden in a special way, in the cool of the evening. every evening. they had full communion with their Creator. this is similar to the early Church to present of Catholics holding mass every single day of the week! God walks with us daily. he has in a very real sense restored to a great degree our communion with him that adam and eve shared. he enters in a special way, in the Eucharist to be with his people. body blood soul and divinity of Christ are with us at that time. have you not read? there remains A sabbath day for the people of God. but it is not a specific day, it is everyday for His people. to hold onto the shadow, and not embrace the light, is very limited and short sighted. i really feel sorry for those that cannot fully accept what Christ came to accomplish. namely, bringing us into an intimate relationship with Himself. and when He comes again. he will restore physically what has been damaged through sin. the entire universe. Peace

 

[benidict]

Always did claim that.

excellent my friend! if that is the case. tell me what Seventh Day Adventist fought in the revolutionary war? im curious who was expounding Seventh Day Adventist theology, not back to the time of the apostles, but just to this point. please. just one pastor who was teaching this theology at this time. Peace

 

[benidict]

and another question. did james white ever accept the doctrine of the trinity? if not, then E.G. White, was unequally yoked. which should raise another red flag. not to mention very close associates who had strong ties to the masonic orders. what has light to do with darkness? if what the Adventist teach is true, then these questions are fair, and should be addressed. yes? if lets say the apostles had close associates that were pagans, and were allowed to practice their paganism along with Christianity. i would have serious questions too. Peace

 

[benidict]

oh yes… abraham issac and jacob, were not commanded to keep the sabbath either. please show me one passage that says that all three were commanded to keep it. i submit, that the commandment to keep the sabbath was not given until it was given to the hebrews by moses. noah also was not commanded to keep it. nor was he given any dietary restrictions. except that he could not eat the blood of the animal…hmmm. sounds kinda like what the apostle said in acts. interesting. who would have figured i could have so much fun in a war zone. God bless you all! you all are going to make my deployment go so much faster. before you know it, i will be having my discussions with you from hawaii again! thx. love you folks. Peace