Intelligent Design

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Didn’t you read what I wrote? You can shuffle the cards any amount of times you’d like. If you can keep just one card at a time (and this is how the process of evolution works), you can reduce the chances of something happening from being nothing short of impossible given all the time that has ever existed to something I could do before the end of the day.

And we are looking for one specific card at a time. When the genetic advantage for a living organism could be anything at all. And it’s just me dealing the cards whereas we have every living thing on the planet that has ever lived doing this every time they reproduce. And I’m only doing it for a few hours whereas the actual process has been going on for millions upon million upon millions of years.

Surely, I mean surely, that must make you wonder.
About as much as a magician pulling a rabbit from a hat.

What you are not explaining is what makes the card trick very unlike evolution.

I find it amazing that you accused Douglas Axe, et al, of deception in their paper I cited and claimed that their very precise and careful observations along with diligent collection of data in their work with amino acids was deceptive, yet you try to pass off a very dissimilar card trick as if it were very like evolution.

This is science, but Axe’s work is not.

Who’s shuckin’ who, Bradski?

:tsktsk:
 
Didn’t you read what I wrote? You can shuffle the cards any amount of times you’d like. If you can keep just one card at a time (and this is how the process of evolution works), you can reduce the chances of something happening from being nothing short of impossible given all the time that has ever existed to something I could do before the end of the day.

And we are looking for one specific card at a time. When the genetic advantage for a living organism could be anything at all. And it’s just me dealing the cards whereas we have every living thing on the planet that has ever lived doing this every time they reproduce. And I’m only doing it for a few hours whereas the actual process has been going on for millions upon million upon millions of years.

Surely, I mean surely, that must make you wonder.
Its fantasy and you know it.
 
A partial quote from Bradski:

“the genetic advantage for a living organism could be anything at all”

That’s not a scientific statement. It does not define or clarify anything. It is an assertion. There are things that living things can and can’t do but the assumption must always be ‘science has the answers’ to all that. This is scientism - a belief or faith system based on undiscovered and/or undemonstrated ideas.

Ed
 
I find it amazing that you accused Douglas Axe, et al, of deception in their paper I cited and claimed that their very precise and careful observations along with diligent collection of data in their work with amino acids was deceptive…
I said the paper was inadmissible for reasons given. Can you point out where I said the observations and data were deceptive?
That’s not a scientific statement.
No it wasn’t. I’m not a scientist. I’m trying to explain to you how things work in the simplest, plainest terms I can muster. You have been given an enormous amount of bogus info in regard to evolution and I am trying to put you straight in terms I thought you might be able to understand.
 
About as much as a magician pulling a rabbit from a hat.

What you are not explaining is what makes the card trick very unlike evolution.

I find it amazing that you accused Douglas Axe, et al, of deception in their paper I cited and claimed that their very precise and careful observations along with diligent collection of data in their work with amino acids was deceptive, yet you try to pass off a very dissimilar card trick as if it were very like evolution.

This is science, but Axe’s work is not.

Who’s shuckin’ who, Bradski?

:tsktsk:
Personally, I am a fan of Dr. Ann Gauger. But that does not make me an advocate of ID. This is what I mean by approaching evidence (methods and materials) without prejudice.
 
I said the paper was inadmissible for reasons given. Can you point out where I said the observations and data were deceptive?

No it wasn’t. I’m not a scientist. I’m trying to explain to you how things work in the simplest, plainest terms I can muster. You have been given an enormous amount of bogus info in regard to evolution and I am trying to put you straight in terms I thought you might be able to understand.
Thanks for your service to my limited understanding.

It seems to me, however, that the work of Axe, et al, demonstrates that a minimum of 2 and usually three specifically correlated mutations are necessary before anything like a new adaptive “trait” can arise. So unlike your card trick which relies on one card being “kept,” a more realistic requirement would be that the correct two or three cards would have to come up TOGETHER before they could be “kept.” That would change the timing substantially.

Another article has recently been posted which throws a different wrench into your card trick depiction of evolution. The following article deals with genetic convergence in avian species.

sciencemag.org/content/346/6215/1256846.full.pdf

According to the above paper and corroborated in several other recent papers on the topic, there is a consistently occurring set of just over 50 genes that are required for the brains of birds and humans to be capable of vocal learning. These genetic constituents are not in the genomes of birds that do not exhibit vocal learning, nor in non-human primates, so they must have evolved independently of each other.

The evolution of vocal learning in at least three specific bird species with the convergent traits are separated from any common ancestor by a 68 to 310 million year gap. Essentially, that means the exact 50 + gene combination had to arise in the same orderly way (that your card example illustrates) at least three separate times in birds and once more in human primates randomly from radically different starting points.

This is, by the way, not an uncommon phenomenon. Convergent traits have occurred numerous times in the past requiring that similar genetic combinations arise independently by random mutation across several species.

aeon.co/magazine/science/how-horizontal-gene-transfer-changes-evolutionary-theory/

A third issue with your card trick is that “keeping” a card is predetermined beforehand. It is unclear how a trait such as vocal learning involving 50 + individual genes could have ended at the same “kept” sequence given that vocal learning was not an intended outcome, but arrived at randomly. Yet, why would a sequence of adaptive trait development that “keeps” one trait as adaptive necessarily lead to the next and not some other down the road of survival? It would seem that ending at the same “end” sequence would be inexplicable by mere random determinations since mutations could have gone anywhere along the “road” of adaptive survival.
 
Thanks for your service to my limited understanding.

It seems to me, however, that the work of Axe, et al, demonstrates that a minimum of 2 and usually three specifically correlated mutations are necessary before anything like a new adaptive “trait” can arise. So unlike your card trick which relies on one card being “kept,” a more realistic requirement would be that the correct two or three cards would have to come up TOGETHER before they could be “kept.” That would change the timing substantially.

Another article has recently been posted which throws a different wrench into your card trick depiction of evolution. The following article deals with genetic convergence in avian species.

sciencemag.org/content/346/6215/1256846.full.pdf

According to the above paper and corroborated in several other recent papers on the topic, there is a consistently occurring set of just over 50 genes that are required for the brains of birds and humans to be capable of vocal learning. These genetic constituents are not in the genomes of birds that do not have vocal learning nor in non-human primates so they must have evolved independently of each other.

The evolution of vocal learning in at least three specific bird species with the convergent traits are separated from any common ancestor by a 68 to 310 million year gap. Essentially, that means the exact 50 + gene combination had to arise in the same orderly way (that your card example illustrates) at least three separate times in birds and once more in human primates randomly from radically different starting points.

This is, by the way, not an uncommon phenomenon. Convergent traits have occurred numerous times in the past requiring that similar genetic combinations arise independently by random mutation across several species.

aeon.co/magazine/science/how-horizontal-gene-transfer-changes-evolutionary-theory/
Let’s get back to design. Let’s try for a human eye. The eyeball, eyelid, tear ducts, focusing system, lens, optic nerve and a connection to the brain that can differentiate between that dark spot on the ground being exposed earth or a deep hole. And the correct separation of eyeballs for stereoscopic vision.

Ed
 
No it wasn’t. I’m not a scientist. I’m trying to explain to you how things work in the simplest, plainest terms I can muster. You have been given an enormous amount of bogus info in regard to evolution and I am trying to put you straight in terms I thought you might be able to understand.
As a scientist I can assert that you are doing just fine with your explanations. 👍
 
We have seen that something that you describe as impossible as it ‘exceeds chance by a large number’ can be reduced from a length of time that is literally unimaginable to a just few hours. Now your claim is that, oh well, it doesn’t work that anyway. Despite the fact that it has been proven to act just in that way.
Do you believe there are absolutely no limits whatsoever to what chance can achieve? If so how would you justify that assumption?
 
Let’s get back to design. Let’s try for a human eye. The eyeball, eyelid, tear ducts, focusing system, lens, optic nerve and a connection to the brain that can differentiate between that dark spot on the ground being exposed earth or a deep hole. And the correct separation of eyeballs for stereoscopic vision.
Ed
They are supposed to be the results of a long series of fortuitous events! The blind Goddess is at work again. 🙂
 
Thanks for your service to my limited understanding.

It seems to me, however, that the work of Axe, et al, demonstrates that a minimum of 2 and usually three specifically correlated mutations are necessary before anything like a new adaptive “trait” can arise. So unlike your card trick which relies on one card being “kept,” a more realistic requirement would be that the correct two or three cards would have to come up TOGETHER before they could be “kept.” That would change the timing substantially.

Another article has recently been posted which throws a different wrench into your card trick depiction of evolution. The following article deals with genetic convergence in avian species.

sciencemag.org/content/346/6215/1256846.full.pdf

According to the above paper and corroborated in several other recent papers on the topic, there is a consistently occurring set of just over 50 genes that are required for the brains of birds and humans to be capable of vocal learning. These genetic constituents are not in the genomes of birds that do not exhibit vocal learning, nor in non-human primates, so they must have evolved independently of each other.

The evolution of vocal learning in at least three specific bird species with the convergent traits are separated from any common ancestor by a 68 to 310 million year gap. Essentially, that means the exact 50 + gene combination had to arise in the same orderly way (that your card example illustrates) at least three separate times in birds and once more in human primates randomly from radically different starting points.

This is, by the way, not an uncommon phenomenon. Convergent traits have occurred numerous times in the past requiring that similar genetic combinations arise independently by random mutation across several species.

aeon.co/magazine/science/how-horizontal-gene-transfer-changes-evolutionary-theory/

A third issue with your card trick is that “keeping” a card is predetermined beforehand. It is unclear how a trait such as vocal learning involving 50 + individual genes could have ended at the same “kept” sequence given that vocal learning was not an intended outcome, but arrived at randomly. Yet, why would a sequence of adaptive trait development that “keeps” one trait as adaptive necessarily lead to the next and not some other down the road of survival? It would seem that ending at the same “end” sequence would be inexplicable by mere random determinations since mutations could have gone anywhere along the “road” of adaptive survival.
👍 It amounts to believing that our power of insight is produced by purposeless events…
 
And after you’ve all read that you can read this and the rest of the discussion around it:

"On the contrary, biologists (who actually know some biology) know that all manner of gradations of eye complexity exist in extant organisms, from creatures with an “eye” consisting of a single photoreceptor cell, through all of the various stages that Nilsson and Pelger depict, to the “advanced” camera eyes of mammals and cephalopods.

Sometimes the whole sequence from eyespot to advanced eye with lens can be seen in a single group (e.g. snails), yet another thing which Berlinski would have known if he’d followed the reference that Nilsson and Pelger gave to the actual classic work on eye evolution, a monster 56 page article by Salvini-Plawen and Mayr in the journal Evolutionary Biology (volume 10, 1977) that reviewed hundreds of papers on eyes across the animal kingdom, and with the fairly clear title “On the evolution of photoreceptors and eyes”. The paper answers many of the questions which Berlinski asserts are unanswered or unanswerable.

Complex eyes with lenses have even evolved in single-celled dinoflagellates, which have no blood vessels, brains, or numerous other features Berlinski is concerned about. talkreason.org/articles/blurred.cfm#lund
 
And after you’ve all read that you can read this and the rest of the discussion around it:

"On the contrary, biologists (who actually know some biology) know that all manner of gradations of eye complexity exist in extant organisms, from creatures with an “eye” consisting of a single photoreceptor cell, through all of the various stages that Nilsson and Pelger depict, to the “advanced” camera eyes of mammals and cephalopods.

Sometimes the whole sequence from eyespot to advanced eye with lens can be seen in a single group (e.g. snails), yet another thing which Berlinski would have known if he’d followed the reference that Nilsson and Pelger gave to the actual classic work on eye evolution, a monster 56 page article by Salvini-Plawen and Mayr in the journal Evolutionary Biology (volume 10, 1977) that reviewed hundreds of papers on eyes across the animal kingdom, and with the fairly clear title “On the evolution of photoreceptors and eyes”. The paper answers many of the questions which Berlinski asserts are unanswered or unanswerable.

Complex eyes with lenses have even evolved in single-celled dinoflagellates, which have no blood vessels, brains, or numerous other features Berlinski is concerned about. talkreason.org/articles/blurred.cfm#lund
In other words all complex organs have been produced by physical necessity. The entire process of development from the origin of life to rational beings was inevitable, i.e. sheer physical necessity. Eventually it had to happen for no reason whatsoever.

In that case reasons are replaced by causes… I wonder how that affects one’s faith in the power of reason. Is insight an illusion?
 
That answer is precisely where you unequivocally prove that you have no idea of how evolution works.
How evolution works is no problem.😃

Catholic teachings understand how evolution currently works which is why the cladogram (populations) is opposed when applied to human origin.
 
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