Intelligent Design

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How evolution works is no problem.😃

Catholic teachings understand how evolution currently works which is why the cladogram (populations) is opposed when applied to human origin.
At heart, that is what I see as the major disagreement. From the point of view of evolution we are just another species, one among many. The religious point of view sees us as extra special, “in the image of God”. It is difficult to reconcile those two points of view. Some people can do it, but not everyone.

$0.02

rossum
 
Is an appeal to the unlimited power of chance a “scientific” explanation?
It is an appeal to the god of BUC (blind unguided chance) The faith in this God is enormous and more than “we poor Christians were ever expected to believe.”

“What this professor wants to afflict on us is far more unbelievable than what we poor Christians were ever expected to believe.” Monod does not dispute this. His thesis is that the entire ensemble of nature has arisen out of errors and dissonances. He cannot help but say himself that such a conception is in fact absurd. But, according to him, the scientific method demands that a question not be permitted to which the answer would have to be God. One can only say that a method of this sort is pathetic. God himself shines through the reasonableness of his creation. Physics and biology, and the natural sciences in general, have given us a new and unheard-of creation account with vast new images, which let us recognize the face of the Creator and which make us realize once again that at the very beginning and foundation of all being there is a creating Intelligence…" Pope Benedict XVI
 
And after you’ve all read that you can read this and the rest of the discussion around it:

"On the contrary, biologists (who actually know some biology) know that all manner of gradations of eye complexity exist in extant organisms, from creatures with an “eye” consisting of a single photoreceptor cell, through all of the various stages that Nilsson and Pelger depict, to the “advanced” camera eyes of mammals and cephalopods.

Sometimes the whole sequence from eyespot to advanced eye with lens can be seen in a single group (e.g. snails), yet another thing which Berlinski would have known if he’d followed the reference that Nilsson and Pelger gave to the actual classic work on eye evolution, a monster 56 page article by Salvini-Plawen and Mayr in the journal Evolutionary Biology (volume 10, 1977) that reviewed hundreds of papers on eyes across the animal kingdom, and with the fairly clear title “On the evolution of photoreceptors and eyes”. The paper answers many of the questions which Berlinski asserts are unanswered or unanswerable.

Complex eyes with lenses have even evolved in single-celled dinoflagellates, which have no blood vessels, brains, or numerous other features Berlinski is concerned about. talkreason.org/articles/blurred.cfm#lund
How many times should a feature evolve in separate organisms before one should give pause?
 
At heart, that is what I see as the major disagreement. From the point of view of evolution we are just another species, one among many. The religious point of view sees us as extra special, “in the image of God”. It is difficult to reconcile those two points of view. Some people can do it, but not everyone.

$0.02

rossum
Essentially it comes down to two opposing worldviews. Everyone picks one.

One is what God has revealed to us, the other is what our limited human reasoning provisionally believes.
 
Essentially it comes down to two opposing worldviews. Everyone picks one.

One is what God has revealed to us, the other is what our limited human reasoning provisionally believes.
There are a lot more than two: one that YHWH has revealed, one that Jesus has revealed, one that Allah has revealed, one that Krishna has revealed, one that Amaterasu has revealed …

There are great many gods and a great many revelations from them.

You are correct that everyone picks one.

rossum
 
Do you have children, Charles? Do you notice any similarity between them and you? If you were a good runner, then the chances are that some of your children will also be able to run faster than the average child. Now if you are in the woods and a bear chases your kids and the kids of that guy down the road, who is really smart, but couldn’t run to save his life, which children would be more likely to survive?

Doesn’t the answer make any sense to you whatsoever?
No sense whatsoever. I must be dumb! 😉
 
Let’s get back to design. Let’s try for a human eye. The eyeball, eyelid, tear ducts, focusing system, lens, optic nerve and a connection to the brain that can differentiate between that dark spot on the ground being exposed earth or a deep hole. And the correct separation of eyeballs for stereoscopic vision.

Ed
In “A Short Scheme of the True Religion,” Isaac Newton drew vigorously on a biological illustration to support a God who exercises intelligent design.

“Whence is it that the eyes of all sorts of living creatures are transparent to the very bottom & the only transparent members in the body, having on the outside an hard transparent skin, & within transparent juices with a crystalline Lens in the middle & a pupil before the Lens all of them so truly shaped & fitted for vision, that no Artist can mend them? Did blind chance know that there was light & what was its refraction & fit the eyes of all creatures after the most curious manner to make use of it? These & such like considerations always have & ever will prevail with mankind to believe that there is a being who made all things & has all things in his power & who is therefore to be feared."
 
There are a lot more than two: one that YHWH has revealed, one that Jesus has revealed, one that Allah has revealed, one that Krishna has revealed, one that Amaterasu has revealed …

There are great many gods and a great many revelations from them.

You are correct that everyone picks one.

rossum
But aren’t you the fellow who insisted on another thread that the gods can be safely ignored? :rolleyes:
 
Is an appeal to the unlimited power of chance a “scientific” explanation?
If that is the case, we should have fossils with one eye socket bigger than the other, four tail bones… the possibilities are endless. A mechanism that operates on that principle should have produced a lot of errors on its way to… to… anything.

Ed
 
At heart, that is what I see as the major disagreement. From the point of view of evolution we are just another species, one among many. The religious point of view sees us as extra special, “in the image of God”. It is difficult to reconcile those two points of view. Some people can do it, but not everyone.

$0.02

rossum
I understand. Yet …

While some religious-types may recognize Genesis 1: 26-27, a living organism, material/physical anatomy, population is still a population belonging in the scientific realm. As far as I know, humans are still considered living organisms. 🙂
 
In other words all complex organs have been produced by physical necessity. The entire process of development from the origin of life to rational beings was inevitable, i.e. sheer physical necessity. Eventually it had to happen for no reason whatsoever.

In that case reasons are replaced by causes… I wonder how that affects one’s faith in the power of reason. Is insight an illusion?
Good Afternoon Toneyrey: I don’t know if it was necessary or inevitable. It may have been just the way cosmos grew. Ancient and shamanic cultures had a more organic view of the cosmos. The idea that there are such things as laws that govern some sort of mechanical process developed about the time of Descartes, Newton and the like. Seeing the world on a physical or naïve surface level was also a specialty of the Greeks, and started gaining purchase again during the Renaissance.

I rather think that the organic view will one day win out. If you couple an organic rather than mechanical view of the world around us an apply some common sense about what we find meaningful about existence, or simply what it is that we do as beings, you start coming up with a different view of things. Let me explain what I mean. Anything we do is about experience. Riding a bike, sorrow, pain, happiness, joy, love, anger, rowing a boat, going to work, a day in the park - it’s all experience. That seems to be what we’re about. On Earth, we experience things through 5 senses that we know of, and who knows what else in other regions of the cosmos.

The universe seems to be about experience, and rather than a maker with a plan, perhaps it’s a maker who simply craves experience. If there is no one to experience suns, planets, skies, plants, air and what have you, then what is the point? So what if the universe isn’t something other than God growing and experiencing what it makes of itself? Perhaps as it grows, it creates new dimensions of experience. Here on earth it developed as simple organisms that created the dimension of movement, then the sensation of light sensitivity, then organs of vision, sound, touch, taste and so on, until eventually at least on this planet it developed a new dimension called language where it could share ideas with permutations of itself.

There certainly weren’t any laws about physics at the moment before the Big Bang, and no laws governing atoms for billions of years after the big bang because there were no atoms at that level of heat. There was only an electron soup. Atoms didn’t behave like atoms until there were atoms, and from there it was possibly simply a learned pattern of behavior for atoms to behave like they do. The current model of the universe certainly behaves like atoms on a much larger scale - the biggest things, the smallest things and all things in between behave that way. Electrons around nuclei, moons around planets, planets around suns, suns around galaxies and all the things these larger bodies are made of behave in this way. It looks lore like a pattern of learned behavior rather than a plan. And there is no reason to suppose that there were laws governing any of these things until these things came to be. No laws of how atoms behave until there were such things as atoms, no laws on simple elements until there were simple elements, No laws on complex elements until there were complex elements and no laws on complex polymers until there were complex polymers. Laws are a human syntax of thinking that we have projected onto the natural world in our heads.

In my view, and I have explained my thinking on this, is that God is not something other than what God expresses. God says that IT is the vine and we are the branches. Well, were does a vine end and a branch begin? There are one thing in truth. And people hate this idea, because it puts everything squarely back on us, because it’s a fearful idea to think that no one is going to save you and watch over you. But what is there to be saved from when the whole thing was you anyway?

Just a point of view.
 
There are a lot more than two: one that YHWH has revealed, one that Jesus has revealed, one that Allah has revealed, one that Krishna has revealed, one that Amaterasu has revealed …

There are great many gods and a great many revelations from them.

You are correct that everyone picks one.

rossum
Uh no.

YHWH, Jesus and Allah are all the same God of Abraham.

33 x a million Gods? You pick one? Krishna had thousands of wives. Did any of these gods die for our salvation?
 
Did any of these gods die for our salvation?
Wouldn’t some one already need to be convinced of Christianity and of vicarious redemption for that question to be personally meaningful to the person being asked?
 
No sense whatsoever.
I must admit that I thought the question so mind-numbingly, gob-smackingly, jaw-droppingly obvious that a child would be able to understand the implications. So I asked one.

I was at my daughter’s last night and her husband’s niece was there. I called up the forum on the iPad and showed the question to her. The answer was obvious to her and the reason she gave the answer was obvious to her. She has a basic understanding of genetics. And she’s nine years old.
I must be dumb! 😉
Whether you are or whether you are just worried about the implications of answering such questions I can leave for others to decide.
 
There certainly weren’t any laws about physics at the moment before the Big Bang, and no laws governing atoms for billions of years after the big bang because there were no atoms at that level of heat. There was only an electron soup. Atoms didn’t behave like atoms until there were atoms, and from there it was possibly simply a learned pattern of behavior for atoms to behave like they do. The current model of the universe certainly behaves like atoms on a much larger scale - the biggest things, the smallest things and all things in between behave that way. Electrons around nuclei, moons around planets, planets around suns, suns around galaxies and all the things these larger bodies are made of behave in this way. It looks lore like a pattern of learned behavior rather than a plan. And there is no reason to suppose that there were laws governing any of these things until these things came to be. No laws of how atoms behave until there were such things as atoms, no laws on simple elements until there were simple elements, No laws on complex elements until there were complex elements and no laws on complex polymers until there were complex polymers. Laws are a human syntax of thinking that we have projected onto the natural world in our heads.
Laws are not simply constructs of the human mind. The first way to find this out is to leap off the top of a building and bang your head a few times on the way down.

That these laws exist is indisputable. Where did they come from. Who or what breathed fire into these equations? The belief that there is no ordering intelligence behind the universe, that the universe just acquired a mind of its own by growing one on its own, flies in the face of common sense and everything we know about organic growth. A seed must be planted, then nourished by the farmer before it bears fruit.
 
Uh no.

YHWH, Jesus and Allah are all the same God of Abraham.
Does the God of Abraham have a son, yes or no? Was Mohammed one of His prophets, yes or not? If they are the same God, then He gave three different revelations.
33 x a million Gods? You pick one? Krishna had thousands of wives. Did any of these gods die for our salvation?
Hinduism does not have the concept of salvation, the Hindu revelation has moksha, which is different. The Abrahamic revelations completely lack the concept of moksha and so must be deficient.

We are still left with the problem of which revelation to pick.

rossum
 
Laws are not simply constructs of the human mind. The first way to find this out is to leap off the top of a building and bang your head a few times on the way down.

That these laws exist is indisputable. Where did they come from. Who or what breathed fire into these equations? The belief that there is no ordering intelligence behind the universe, that the universe just acquired a mind of its own by growing one on its own, flies in the face of common sense and everything we know about organic growth. A seed must be planted, then nourished by the farmer before it bears fruit.
I can demonstrate gravity all day. Or put my hand on a hot stove. The results will be 100% the same each time. But after burning my hand a maximum of twice, I keep it away from hot stoves.

Ed
 
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