Inter-faith Relationships

[ack]

yes because you alone can read minds

I’m not sure what you’re insinuating here. I didn’t have to read anyone’s mind – everything I stated came from her own post!!

 

[Elizabeth_C]

Islam doesn’t teach that everyone is going to hell but Muslims.Raising the Children Catholic means explaining that Dad…who prays five times a day, doesn’t drink, and fasts for an entire month is going to hell. While Mom drinks, goes to church once a week, and Fasts only a few days a year and is going to Heaven.

Islam is an easier faith to teach than Catholicism.
.

I have to point out that you are incorrect in the actual Catholic teaching. The Church has never declared ANYONE as having been condemned to hell. It is not a case of “if you are not Catholic, you are going to hell.” I am not good at explaining, but whenever this issue has been raised (whether on EWTN shows or elsewhere) the true teaching is the only God knows and that there is room for understanding. DON"T teach your children that this devout man is destined for hell, even if you do choose Catholicism for them. (After all, Abraham is the father of Islam as well… and Judaism.)

As for easier to teach… I have no idea how easy Islam is to teach, but Catholicism is not as hard as you would imply it is. Mystery is there because we cannot know God as we are.

 

[IrishJoe]

I would disagree, I find Catholicism very difficult. In ireland it is poorly taught if it is at all. In my own journey of discovering more about my faith I have on more than one occasion been told that such a thing exisits basically because the church says so and that they know more than me. Obviously this is not a rational argument so I still struggle with parts of Catholicsm.

 

[onmyknees]

Irish Joe and Rapida,
I have to agree with Elizabeth C… Only God knows what is in the heart of every man and ones who are not Catholic can be saved but these will be saved through the Catholic Church that was started by Jesus Christ when He gave the keys to the Church to Peter. Matt.16:18-19. Jesus also gave the apostles (first church fathers) the gifts from the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Confirmation). Acts 2:1-47. The Holy Spirit always guides the Church when they make any decisions! The dogmas and doctrines have never been changed by the Church for 2000+ years. The small “t” cultural traditions have always been able to be changed since the starting of the church. For example some Jewish laws (circumcision), women covering their heads in church, rules of fasting on penitential days, and priests being married or not. And many of the teachings of the Church were passed down through oral tradition from Jesus Christ that were not written down. The Bible came after these oral traditions because it wasn’t written yet. John 21:25." But there are also many other things which Jesus did, were every one of them written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written". When the early Church first compiled the books of the Bible it was also with the Holy Spirit. Acts 1:4-5 and 8 “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and the end of the earth.”

 

[THutch04]

And to make this thread more than just venting, what are your views on inter-faith couples? And why do you have these views as well?

It wasn’t until recently that I started dating people of my faith. That was the result of a relationship where the Catholic’s parents did not like the fact that I wasn’t Catholic. I never thought it would be something that I would consider, but a good 5 years later I can understand their point (although I will just say, making it obvious that you don’t like a significant other for that reason alone is NOT a way to win people over).

I can’t say I have any strong “views” on inter-faith couples one way or another. I think a lot of it depends on the two faiths involved (a Catholic and an Anglican is different from a Catholic and a Jehovah’s Witness for example), and how strongly both people practice their faith. My advice would be to look into the possible problems that could arise; different faiths may work well for two individuals, but what about when children come? Will the non-Catholic be willing to baptize their children Catholic, or will they feel resentment, as if their faith isn’t “good enough?” Or even if they do agree to it, will they have any part in raising them Catholic (and should they even be EXPECTED to participate in the religious life and services of a faith in which they do not believe). I know that these are hypotheticals and don’t necessarily have concrete answers. But they’re important questions to ask.

Also, I’ve always believed that you should never ASSUME that one will convert. I would go into that kind of a relationship assuming that they WOULDN’T convert and see if that is something I could handle for the rest of my life. Would you be alright with the fact that your family will never be able to receive the Eucharist together, for example?

I’m not necessarily against inter-faith couples, and I have certainly seen examples where both people have been serious about their faith and have made it work (but it has not been easy for them at all, and they have really WORKED in order to have a successful marriage). There are some relationships where the non-Catholic has even converted. But there are so many more examples where it does NOT work, and when they fail, it’s usually because of some of the reasons I listed above. I think many times, people don’t necessarily think about the very real divisions that exist, and what would need to be sacrificed.

I will just repeat what is said on this board many times, and is so true: marriage is NOT just about finding “the love of your life” or your “soulmate.” Yes, I do believe that you should love the person you marry. But marriage is also about finding the person who will help you grow in your faith, and who will help you and your children reach Heaven. It’s about still being around to provide a faith-filled home even after the romantic feelings have faded. Not every inter-faith couple is able to do this.

For me, as a convert, I want to marry a Catholic. And truthfully, I don’t see myself being in the position where I would want to make the kind of effort that a marriage takes with somebody who was not a practicing Catholic as well. But I do believe that the only way ANY marriage can work, especially an inter-faith marriage is to pray without ceasing.

 

[stlouismb]

I ask your indulgence and that of the moderator of this thread that if there is a better thread on which to post the following, please let me know or feel free to move it. I am interested in replies to help this couple. I tried to post it over at the chforum, but it never “took”.

I have a question for all of you pastoral types out there. As well as those with personal experience.

The wife of a couple I know wants to leave the (Charismatic Episcopal Church) CEC and join the RCC. The husband does not want to leave the CEC. He grew up in the RCC and has no intention of going back.

They had reached a “compromise” before Advent that they would both go to the AMiA (Anglican Mission in America) parish. They only went once in 5 weeks…many excuses–mostly by the husband. The husband then notified the wife he was returning to the CEC the wife informed the husband she had no intention of going back, but would instead join the RCC where she has wanted to be for many years.

Any thoughts? Prayers? Advice?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[onmyknees]

It wasn’t until recently that I started dating people of my faith. That was the result of a relationship where the Catholic’s parents did not like the fact that I wasn’t Catholic. I never thought it would be something that I would consider, but a good 5 years later I can understand their point (although I will just say, making it obvious that you don’t like a significant other for that reason alone is NOT a way to win people over).

I can’t say I have any strong “views” on inter-faith couples one way or another. I think a lot of it depends on the two faiths involved (a Catholic and an Anglican is different from a Catholic and a Jehovah’s Witness for example), and how strongly both people practice their faith. My advice would be to look into the possible problems that could arise; different faiths may work well for two individuals, but what about when children come? Will the non-Catholic be willing to baptize their children Catholic, or will they feel resentment, as if their faith isn’t “good enough?” Or even if they do agree to it, will they have any part in raising them Catholic (and should they even be EXPECTED to participate in the religious life and services of a faith in which they do not believe). I know that these are hypotheticals and don’t necessarily have concrete answers. But they’re important questions to ask.

Also, I’ve always believed that you should never ASSUME that one will convert. I would go into that kind of a relationship assuming that they WOULDN’T convert and see if that is something I could handle for the rest of my life. Would you be alright with the fact that your family will never be able to receive the Eucharist together, for example?

I’m not necessarily against inter-faith couples, and I have certainly seen examples where both people have been serious about their faith and have made it work (but it has not been easy for them at all, and they have really WORKED in order to have a successful marriage). There are some relationships where the non-Catholic has even converted. But there are so many more examples where it does NOT work, and when they fail, it’s usually because of some of the reasons I listed above. I think many times, people don’t necessarily think about the very real divisions that exist, and what would need to be sacrificed.

I will just repeat what is said on this board many times, and is so true: marriage is NOT just about finding “the love of your life” or your “soulmate.” Yes, I do believe that you should love the person you marry. But marriage is also about finding the person who will help you grow in your faith, and who will help you and your children reach Heaven. It’s about still being around to provide a faith-filled home even after the romantic feelings have faded. Not every inter-faith couple is able to do this.

For me, as a convert, I want to marry a Catholic. And truthfully, I don’t see myself being in the position where I would want to make the kind of effort that a marriage takes with somebody who was not a practicing Catholic as well. But I do believe that the only way ANY marriage can work, especially an inter-faith marriage is to pray without ceasing.

AMEN!!! Coming from someone who has been married to a non- Catholic
on-Christian for 30 years. Praying without ceasing.

 

[IrishJoe]

Prayer is important in any relationship that may be headed for marrage.
I feel blessed to have a girlfriend with whom we have already discussed these issue.

however I dont mean to be offensive but onmyknees your post came off as a little condescending. Obviously tone is non existant on the internet but realistically I dont find why a synopsis of ’ why the RCC is right’ helpful.

Honestly I can understant why there are lots of different protestant divisions. However I wold argue that some (ie Anglicans) are more catholic than others and often that some protestants can be more Chrisitan than a lot of Catholics I have met.

 

[Markstorm]

Again, giving statistics about how their children won’t be either faith… stats don’t make sense. Stats are a generalization. Their marriage is not in the majority, it is unique, and so stats about the general public may not and probably won’t apply. And once more-- if stats are the way to go then Catholic mothers should stop going to Church because most Catholic children will go to Church as adults if only the Father goes.

This betrays a faulty understanding of statistics. Correlation, as you should know, does not imply causation. The statistics will give you all the information you need about correlation, while causation requires additional thought.

It makes sense to say that families in which parents differ about religion often result in children who lack conviction about Catholicism. After all, the family is the domestic church, and if Daddy isn’t doing his duty in catechesis and example, we logically expect that the children will be lacking in these respects.

most Catholic children will go to Church as adults if only the Father goes.

In this case, even if such a correlation exists, we consider whether the failure of the mother to attend church actually causes children to be more faithful. This causal connection does not seem rational, and so we dismiss the claim. Mothers and fathers should still both go to church, regardless of this statistic.

Claiming that one marriage is “unique” in order to circumvent the Church’s warning against inter-faith marriage seems misguided. A Catholic who marries has the duty to ensure that his/her children are raised in the Faith.

I noticed also that some people are saying that Islam or Protestantism are easier belief systems to follow. That is irrelevant. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of truth, and to have that knowledge while denying it to others is seriously wrong.

As for the fallacious “I know some Protestants who are more Christian than some Catholics”, that means nothing when discussing whether children should be raised Catholic.

 

[onmyknees]

Prayer is important in any relationship that may be headed for marrage.
I feel blessed to have a girlfriend with whom we have already discussed these issue.

however I dont mean to be offensive but onmyknees your post came off as a little condescending. Obviously tone is non existant on the internet but realistically I dont find why a synopsis of ’ why the RCC is right’ helpful.

Honestly I can understant why there are lots of different protestant divisions. However I wold argue that some (ie Anglicans) are more catholic than others and often that some protestants can be more Chrisitan than a lot of Catholics I have met.

 

[onmyknees]

I would disagree, I find Catholicism very difficult. In ireland it is poorly taught if it is at all. In my own journey of discovering more about my faith I have on more than one occasion been told that such a thing exisits basically because the church says so and that they know more than me. Obviously this is not a rational argument so I still struggle with parts of Catholicsm.

IrishJoe, I’m so sorry that my post sounded condescending! I was sincerely trying to help you by giving you rational answers to your statement. You had been told that " such a thing exists because the church says so and that they know more than me". This posting thing is new to me. The U.S. has also had problems teaching our faith. I didn’t get taught anything in the 70’s. I thought references from scripture would help with your struggles. As to your statement about some Protestants and Anglicans
are more Christian or more Catholic than some Catholics, I agree.
The Catholic Church has even had popes, bishops, and priests who have sinned very gravely. I think that there are going to be people in every group that give bad example because we are all sinners. My father-in-law was Anglican Catholic (as he called it). They did have some of the sacraments but not all seven. There are many Anglican and Episcopal priests, and Protestants converting to Catholicism because of the problems with no authority. Also some have said that they did not realize, until they studied history, that they did not have the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist because the apostolic succession was lost when they left the Catholic Church. I came back to my faith after many years of being lost and searching for the Truth. I went to many Protestant denominations before hearing a young Catholic priest’s very reverent mass. He preached about service, sacrificial love, and the Real Presence in the Eucharist. I knew I was hearing the Truth of Jesus Christ! May God Bless you in your journey to Christ.

 

[IrishJoe]

I agree that the religons may not have as much of the Truth as Catholicsm (I personally dont think it has 100% of th truth… its not perfect) but given the choice between ‘legally correct’ catholics whith no sense of mercy just rules based love or robot comapssion like a lot of the more traditional elements seem to convey and having very Christian protestants who may not be 100% right in their religon I would pick the latter.

We are called to be Christ like not Catholic like or Church like.

 

[onmyknees]

IrishJoe, When I wrote the Truth of Jesus Christ I meant all ofHis teachings which include His unending mercy and Christian love. I know that I try to pray to Jesus in everything I do. Because He is everything to me! By His grace and mercy I am a Catholic Christian today. I was lost for many years and was in great need of His mercy. I have received it abundantly. We are all called to be Christ like. I couldn’t agree more. I lived so long for myself and now I am relearning how to think of others more than myself. I’m sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. You see I love my faith and Jesus’ Church so much that I want to tell everyone everything about it. May God continue to bless you.

 

[celticsfan1983]

Families are based on and around love. If not God’s love, which everyone has, then the love of their parents and relatives and siblings.

I may be a little late coming to this conversation. While I do not have marriage on the horizon (STILL waiting for a friend for life), it would have been a NIGHTMARE to grow up in a home with two different faiths present! I know kids can go through much worse (abuse), but I can’t imagine, at six, seven years old, having to pick between mommy and daddy’s church. Feeling guilt because I don’t “love” my dad enough to pick his church, or that I’m shunning and rejecting my mother because I want to go to daddy’s church for the third week in a row.

That’s a traumatic choice no child should EVER be faced with.

 

[celticsfan1983]

Families are based on and around love. If not God’s love, which everyone has, then the love of their parents and relatives and siblings.

I may be a little late coming to this conversation. While I do not have marriage on the horizon (STILL waiting for a friend for life), it would have been a NIGHTMARE to grow up in a home with two different faiths present! I know kids can go through much worse (abuse), but I can’t imagine, at six, seven years old, having to pick between mommy and daddy’s church. Feeling guilt because I don’t “love” my dad enough to pick his church, or that I’m shunning and rejecting my mother because I want to go to daddy’s church for the third week in a row.

That’s a traumatic choice no child should EVER be faced with.

 

[GraceDK]

I speak from direct experience. I suspect I’ve been married longer than you’ve been alive. For most of that time my wife was the center of my life in many ways. I thought about her constantly, loved getting phone calls or emails in my day and looked forward to coming home more than anything else in my day. I constantly looked for ways to show her my love. Certainly, I am a fallen man and showed my selfish side plenty, but the desire of my heart was to make her happy.

Then, she left the fullness of the truth and embraced a man-made religion. Without warning and with much secrecy and deceipt she converted away to another branch of the Christian family.

The pain that has caused in our marriage is almost unbearable. Where once I doted on her and thought she was the queen of my world, I now find myself feeling ambivilent towards her. I love her with the part of me that chooses to love and will stay with her in our marriage, but that marriage is a hollow shell of what it once was. Where there was mutual joy, there now is sorrow. Where we sheared closeness and passion, there is now just empty arms. Her lips are cold to me and her smile holds no magic. There are days I long for the blessed relief of death.

.

Ghostman… whereas I feel sorry for your pain I really feel ambivalent towards your post and feel very sorry for your wife too. I have met quite many people who are on their way when they meet their spouse and get married and then they might join a church or change church or even become Christians only after they are married… No one can guard him/herself against changing … no one can give the gurantee either that it would not happen, because we dont know what happens… and whether we want to admit it or not it does not always seem like a choice to have faith… its something that seizes you or it doesn’t… and you may loose faith in some Church tradition in your heart and act on it slowly…
Yes, indeed I feel for your wife… she lost faith in the Catholic Church. No wonder she was secretive if she sensed you could not love her anymore because of her following her conscience out of the Church.
What I find most difficult to understand, although I understand your pain, is that you dont see her as a sister in Jesus as it seems. She is still a child of God!.. Did you stop praying together? And if yes then why on earth did you stop?
To me it seems like the devil has tempted you into despair because your wife has changed and he has told you you cant love her or she is not worthy of your love because she somehow failed you.
What about love? I think you should ask the Lord to renew YOUR love for your wife. Her lips and arms are the same as always and she has possibly become disappointed in you too because your love could not endure… I’d say she needs you so much as the man YOU USED TO BE … and you have to change the way you look at her.

Thats my oppinion. You’all might not agree but as a person who loves my brothers and sisters in other parts of the body of Christ its also difficult for me to understand why some of you let it become a stumbling block and a hindrance to love when Jesus so clearly tells us to be One and that we are known as His disciples only if we love the brothers.
Christ is the Way and the Truth and the Life. He is our Salvation.

One other thing that I always hold as true: Dont ever enter a marriage with the intention of changing the other… Marry the one that is in front of you as he/she is, or dont marry the person at all. I find the other thing just wrong…

Shalom

 

[GhostMan]

What about love? I think you should ask the Lord to renew YOUR love for your wife. Her lips and arms are the same as always and she has possibly become disappointed in you too because your love could not endure… I’d say she needs you so much as the man YOU USED TO BE … and you have to change the way you look at her.

Friend, this is about the only prayer I still can manage. I pray it as often as the Lord gives me strength to. You cannot believe that I do not yearn for the loving embrace of my soul’s mate. There is almost nothing -s ave giving up the faith - I would not, no I have not, done to try and win her back.

My love was crushed beneath the blistering heat of her desire to please herself at all costs. She blazed her path not caring about the damage done along the way. I realize she was blinded, and I hold no rancor toward her, but the fact remains that it was not her conversion that did me in, but rather the path she took for it.

There is only so much indifference and callous misattention that I could bear. I’m certain that many of you posess much stronger souls and would have held out long; I’m without excuse there.

She traded being the sun that rose in my heart for a false religion and did so knowing she was making that choice; not her conversion, again, but her path toward it. The people she chose to embrace over me, the men - yes, I’ll say it - she chose to honor and respect while forgetting how to show any to me. She was my first thought in the morning and the last prayer uttered on my lips at night. My day started when I returned home to her after a hard day of work, and I spared no time, expense or trouble to please her. There was a time when many who know me called me uxorious, and I wore that like a medal of honor. Now, I can’t recall the last time she even responded to anything I attempt.

Her religion rings false to me not only because of doctrine and truth, but also because it required her to alienate her family to achieve it.

In the end, before the last tear fell, I asked her only for two things: give up this man who has become an idol to you, this man who urges you forward no matter the cost without regard to the collateral damage he is asking you to commit, and secondly, to delay her conversion for one year. Neither of these things was acceptable to her. She still whispers his name, metaphorically, when she thinks I am not listening. His call is potent and strong and calls to her on an emotional level beyond what a loving husband of over twenty years can achieve.

So, yes the bitterness of losing her to a false religion still hangs strong, but mostly the knowledge that I was not worth anything to her in her blind search for happiness outside our marriage (no, not an affair).

I remember her smile as we danced - poorly, but the delight - and made everyone around us roll their eyes. I see her eyes twinkle with joy as I find a way to do something unexpected. I hear her laugh across the room, but it’s only in my head. I feel the soft touch of her hand across my shoulder and quiver in delight. I remember the dinners alone, the long hikes, the countless weekends together - this while managing to raise more children that three average families.

I am angry that I wasn’t worth keeping. I am frustrated as I see the body of my wife, but long for the soul of my beloved. I lie awake at night and confess how I squandered happiness and pray for forgiveness.

I have dined on perfection and now starve on the memories.

 

[kage_ar]

Ghost Man. Many prayers for you.

Maybe sharing your pain will spare someone else the same heartache.

 

[Memaw]

I’m the Catholic half of a Muslim-Catholic interfaith Marriage. And yes. It’s a heck of a lot of work.

But the good things that havecome from it. astound me.

We pray together. He does his and I do mine. A fun synchronicity we found: Islam requires five preyers a day. A Rosary has five stages. I say a stage of the Rosary as he prays. Works out beautifully (the timing is almost perfect) and I say the rosary now more than I ever did.

We protect each other. He no more brooks any muslim using terms like “So Called Jesus” any more than I tolerate a Catholic whinging about the violence of Islam. We have both read, and come to understand and respect the lessons of faith of each of our faiths.

We guard each other’s faith. I ask him if he’s prayed when he comes home from work, and ensure he catches up on his prayers if things got too busy. He ensures I go to mass. The Bible and the Qu’ran sit side by side on the mantle, and each is treated with the same respect. I read ingedient labels and ask waiters about the possibilities of hidden pork in the foods. He is absolutely DELIGHTED to ensure that my Friday meals during Lent are seafood based. We fast at the same times. I fasted through Ramadan beside him, and he fasted through the Lenten required times with me. (Trust me they have a tougher day fasting than any Catholic can imagine)

We turn to our respective scriptures for support when things get tough. Both have such beautiful things to say on Marriage, and each time we do that kind of research we find ourselves cuddled close, books in our laps, sharing.

We are not afraid to talk to the other’s Spiritual leaders. We ask questions and when the questions go beyond our personal knowledge, neither of us hesitates to pick up the phone ask if an Imam or a Priest wants to have a cup of coffee.

We do have sticking points, But we hope sincerely with prayer, guidance, respect, and love we can work them out. Children are a big issue between us. Neither of our faiths gives any quarter on their upbringing. We know well that one if us will have to give ground. We just haven’t decided which one yet.

But, and here’s why I do think an interfaith marriage can work. Because once you’ve settled into a supportive and faith based life when there are such religious and cultural gaps between you… the cap on the toothpaste? Not a big deal.

I thank God for him. He shores up my faith. I know many days I feel that impinging “Dark Night of the Soul” that disconnection from God. But he holds my hand, and I have faith. He bows his head and says his Bismillah while I say my blessing. He reminds me that my relationship with God is personal, and one and one. That my prayers are not simply recitations, but acts of intent, with spirit and desire. He loves me the way I am, and I love him the same way.

Hopefully… or as he might say, Inshallah, this strength between us lasts…even when it’s hard. I pray it does. But I can tell you, sincerely it is NOT for everybody. It’s not so much a better person that can handle the difference. It is just a different person.

You may think this is great, but what happens when the children come, As a Catholic, you know you have an obligation to raise the children in the Catholic faith and I doubt he will give in so easily on that. Looks to me like the children will be caught in the middle.

 

[awantz]

You may think this is great, but what happens when the children come, As a Catholic, you know you have an obligation to raise the children in the Catholic faith and I doubt he will give in so easily on that. Looks to me like the children will be caught in the middle.

My husband and I agreed to raise our children in both of our faiths and when they reach the age of accountability we will let them choose their own path.