Internet "WWW" == Sign of the Beast?

[oriel36]

Benadam:

That is as you say exquisite. Time seems to be a key element doesn’t it? Isn’t time the most sublime element of matter? Brings to mind how consciousness seems connected to time too.

that number brings to mind the speed of light or the distance to the moon in miles …not sure.

St Augustine’s meditation on time…I’ll paraphrase Time can’t be measured till it’s past, it can’t be conceived in a single unit in the present, and it doesn’t exist untill it arrives.

My thought on that is: it once was, but now is not, and is yet to come.

What is time?

The shadow on the dial,
the striking of the clock,
the running of the sand,
day and night, summer and winter, months, years, centuries

• these are but arbitrary and outward signs,
  the measure of Time, not Time itself.
  Time is the Life of the soul.

Henry Longfellow (1807-1882).

Unfortunately the guys in the early 20th century decided to tamper with what they thought was ‘time’ and managed to bottle it up in a clock as a dimension so say goodbye to the beautiful insight of Longfellow.They even made it seem that mathematicians had some insight into time that is beyond non-mathematicians and create a bright shining lie that has snowballed now for almost a century.

" THE NON-MATHEMATICIAN is seized by a mysterious shuddering when he hears of “four-dimensional” things, by a feeling not unlike that awakened by thoughts of the occult. And yet there is no more common-place statement than that the world in which we live is a four-dimensional space-time continuum."

bartleby.com/173/17.html

We should know better in the 21st century insofar as many have rediscovered that accurate clocks were invented as rulers of distance for solving the Longitude problem based on the rotation rate of the Earth through 360 deg in 24 hours -

rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects97/naval/defin.htm

The principles which give us the equable 24 hour day and subsequently equable hours,minutes and seconds are as exquisite as the facets in the Biblical texts to which they are related.

Unfortunately guys like Albert above forgot the history behind the emergence of accurate clocks and followed Newton’s value for the axial rotation of the Earth through 360 degrees as 23 hours 56 min 04 sec in accordance with Flamsteed’s erroneous 1776 determination through stellar circumpolar motion.In other words previous to Flamsteed the day was calculated from Noon to noon in tandem with the Equation of Time correction using the Sun as a reference but Flamsteed altered it to the passage of the stars through 360 degrees.

The result is that TWO values now exist for axial rotation of the Earth through 360 degrees,if you do not believe me,check the principle gained from accurate clocks and longitude above with the contemporary value proposed by empirical science.

hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JennyChen.shtml

With all due respect,I am a Catholic and do not suffer the empirical lip service that barely disguises the impulse to brand us as superstitous,primitive fools with little or no influence on the future direction of humanity.It insults my intelligence to witness the manner in which the so-called arguments are formatted for creation/evolution or a wider science/religion ‘debate’.I have news for non Christians ,there is no debate and there never was,investigation of natural phenomena is a room in the Divine mansion but it is not a mansion apart.

 

[Benadam]

oriel36:

What is time?

The shadow on the dial,
the striking of the clock,
the running of the sand,
day and night, summer and winter, months, years, centuries

• these are but arbitrary and outward signs,
  the measure of Time, not Time itself.
  Time is the Life of the soul.

Henry Longfellow (1807-1882).

Unfortunately the guys in the early 20th century decided to tamper with what they thought was ‘time’ and managed to bottle it up in a clock as a dimension so say goodbye to the beautiful insight of Longfellow.They even made it seem that mathematicians had some insight into time that is beyond non-mathematicians and create a bright shining lie that has snowballed now for almost a century.

" THE NON-MATHEMATICIAN is seized by a mysterious shuddering when he hears of “four-dimensional” things, by a feeling not unlike that awakened by thoughts of the occult. And yet there is no more common-place statement than that the world in which we live is a four-dimensional space-time continuum."

bartleby.com/173/17.html

We should know better in the 21st century insofar as many have rediscovered that accurate clocks were invented as rulers of distance for solving the Longitude problem based on the rotation rate of the Earth through 360 deg in 24 hours -

rubens.anu.edu.au/student.projects97/naval/defin.htm

The principles which give us the equable 24 hour day and subsequently equable hours,minutes and seconds are as exquisite as the facets in the Biblical texts to which they are related.

Unfortunately guys like Albert above forgot the history behind the emergence of accurate clocks and followed Newton’s value for the axial rotation of the Earth through 360 degrees as 23 hours 56 min 04 sec in accordance with Flamsteed’s erroneous 1776 determination through stellar circumpolar motion.In other words previous to Flamsteed the day was calculated from Noon to noon in tandem with the Equation of Time correction using the Sun as a reference but Flamsteed altered it to the passage of the stars through 360 degrees.

The result is that TWO values now exist for axial rotation of the Earth through 360 degrees,if you do not believe me,check the principle gained from accurate clocks and longitude above with the contemporary value proposed by empirical science.

hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JennyChen.shtml

With all due respect,I am a Catholic and do not suffer the empirical lip service that barely disguises the impulse to brand us as superstitous,primitive fools with little or no influence on the future direction of humanity.It insults my intelligence to witness the manner in which the so-called arguments are formatted for creation/evolution or a wider science/religion ‘debate’.I have news for non Christians ,there is no debate and there never was,investigation of natural phenomena is a room in the Divine mansion but it is not a mansion apart.

Oriel,
I’m enjoying the information contained in your posts. I don’t know if this sounds silly but as I was reading about the differences in a solar day and a siderial day the notion of consciousness entered my mind in connection with being God centered or centered on the self. I’m still absorbing this stuff. In reference to the flaw that you mentioned in regards of the object that the author of Genesis is pointing out by means of Adams geneology, would you be willing to expand on that?

 

[oriel36]

Benadam:

Oriel,
I’m enjoying the information contained in your posts. I don’t know if this sounds silly but as I was reading about the differences in a solar day and a siderial day the notion of consciousness entered my mind in connection with being God centered or centered on the self. I’m still absorbing this stuff. In reference to the flaw that you mentioned in regards of the object that the author of Genesis is pointing out by means of Adams geneology, would you be willing to expand on that?

John of Ruysbroeck in an unforgettable phrase affirms what Christians in all eras experience -

“We are what we behold and behold what we are”

ccel.org/r/ruysbroeck/adornment/adornment.htm

likewise what became known as the Theologia Germanica

ccel.org/t/theo_ger/theologia56.htm

I found my Christian and Catholic heritage a paradise whether it was the sheer generosity of the Judaeo-Christian scribes,the wonderful logic of Copernicus,Kepler and Steno (geology) in natural phenomena,the music of Beethoven or any Christian composers,art,literature or just the community spirit of my Church ,so many mansions full of so many riches.

The more you look at how the Genesis chronology was organised,the more you appreceate the wisdom of the Hebrew scribe.

Look at Genesis 1 and see how he uses the formula -" evening came and morning followed ,the nth day " to connect one day to the next.Adam was created on the 6th day and also forms a link in the genealogical chain of Genesis 5 so it is impossible to sever the ties between a ’ day’ in Genesis 1 with a day in the later genealogical chronology.

Look how the author drops a clue at Enoch by breaking with the formula " Then he died",if this is not an invitation to delve deeper into the structure I do not know what is.

The most wonderful part ,Benadam, geometrically unfolds later but all this depends on how delightful you find these geometrical facets coming from remote antiquity to be.

 

[Benadam]

oriel36:

John of Ruysbroeck in an unforgettable phrase affirms what Christians in all eras experience -

“We are what we behold and behold what we are”

ccel.org/r/ruysbroeck/adornment/adornment.htm

likewise what became known as the Theologia Germanica

ccel.org/t/theo_ger/theologia56.htm

I found my Christian and Catholic heritage a paradise whether it was the sheer generosity of the Judaeo-Christian scribes,the wonderful logic of Copernicus,Kepler and Steno (geology) in natural phenomena,the music of Beethoven or any Christian composers,art,literature or just the community spirit of my Church ,so many mansions full of so many riches.

The more you look at how the Genesis chronology was organised,the more you appreceate the wisdom of the Hebrew scribe.

Look at Genesis 1 and see how he uses the formula -" evening came and morning followed ,the nth day " to connect one day to the next.Adam was created on the 6th day and also forms a link in the genealogical chain of Genesis 5 so it is impossible to sever the ties between a ’ day’ in Genesis 1 with a day in the later genealogical chronology.

Look how the author drops a clue at Enoch by breaking with the formula " Then he died",if this is not an invitation to delve deeper into the structure I do not know what is.

The most wonderful part ,Benadam, geometrically unfolds later but all this depends on how delightful you find these geometrical facets coming from remote antiquity to be.

The activity of creation seems to be a seperating that in it’s self is the cause of unity.

God causes a seperation that creation responds to with a union that prepares the way for another seperation. Yet when like at this time, all does according to His will, who is doing the seperating and who is creating union?

Light from dark

the upper waters from the lower

Like you brought to mind the author describes creative activity as a duality and unites them at the same time. In the book of proverbs I think it is, it says; you can tell the works of God because they comes in pairs and opposites.

On the sixth day we are given a peek into this process when God makes man in His image male and female.

 

[oriel36]

Benadam:

On the sixth day we are given a peek into this process when God makes man in His image male and female.

Excuse me Benadam,I have to be a bit technically hardnosed with the material as the Hebrew scribe made no errors in constructing the mathematical structure from creation to the first drop of rain of the flood.

Technically the Hebrew scribe overlaps a day of creation with a day of the genealogy insofar as Adam is created on the 6th day and also forms a chain in the genealogy up to Noah’s flood.The ancient author knows precisely what he is doing and only modern interpreters would designate the overlaping as carelessness.

Contemporary arguments based on the definition of a ‘Day’ in Genesis are superfluous by the Hebrew author’s standards,he has already incorporated the structure of a day artificially as 86 400 weeks from Adam to the Flood.

For most of the history of Christianity or at least contemplative Christianity,the fall of Adam was understood in its proper context against what rose and lived in Jesus.It is only over the last century that the Genesis narrative has swamped the connection between the tenets of faith which Jesus inherited and which he superseded by His Divine nature.

The upshot is that nobody can sit on the fence when it comes to Genesis and especially treat the text of Genesis with the careless which we moderns appear to treat anything from antiquity.This is what makes us small in comparison to the generosity of their outlook.

 

[MaggieOH]

oriel36:

Excuse me Benadam,I have to be a bit technically hardnosed with the material as the Hebrew scribe made no errors in constructing the mathematical structure from creation to the first drop of rain of the flood.

Technically the Hebrew scribe overlaps a day of creation with a day of the genealogy insofar as Adam is created on the 6th day and also forms a chain in the genealogy up to Noah’s flood.The ancient author knows precisely what he is doing and only modern interpreters would designate the overlaping as carelessness.

Contemporary arguments based on the definition of a ‘Day’ in Genesis are superfluous by the Hebrew author’s standards,he has already incorporated the structure of a day artificially as 86 400 weeks from Adam to the Flood.

For most of the history of Christianity or at least contemplative Christianity,the fall of Adam was understood in its proper context against what rose and lived in Jesus.It is only over the last century that the Genesis narrative has swamped the connection between the tenets of faith which Jesus inherited and which he superseded by His Divine nature.

The upshot is that nobody can sit on the fence when it comes to Genesis and especially treat the text of Genesis with the careless which we moderns appear to treat anything from antiquity.This is what makes us small in comparison to the generosity of their outlook.

These responses are so very deep that I will have to study them in a lot closer detail. Yes, it is true, the author of Genesis is trying to convey something, not from historical accuracy but from a theological point of view that we have not as yet grasped in its fullness.

MaggieOH

 

[Benadam]

oriel36:

Excuse me Benadam,I have to be a bit technically hardnosed with the material as the Hebrew scribe made no errors in constructing the mathematical structure from creation to the first drop of rain of the flood.

Oriel, my view of this day of 86,400 weeks is that it began after the fall and ended with the start of the flood. This is a misconception of what you mean? Time wouldn’t be a relevant issue beforehand since it is percieved differently before sin.
Am I misunderstanding?

The pattern of division is revealed in that timespan as well since sin begins it and judgement ends it. What a day for sure. Union is expressed in the symbol of the flood as a baptism and joins the next in a new covenant like as you mentioned the creative days are joined by the authors use of connective words.

 

[oriel36]

MaggieOH:

These responses are so very deep that I will have to study them in a lot closer detail. Yes, it is true, the author of Genesis is trying to convey something, not from historical accuracy but from a theological point of view that we have not as yet grasped in its fullness.

MaggieOH

There is a lovely sadness to these mathematical facets regardless of how they are expressed,whether in Genesis or the highly developed form found in the Book of Revelation.It happens that some people begin to see the outlines emerge only to allow them to fade away and retreat back to the harsh or dour treatment others choose to approach the texts.

I have known these mathematical facets as complimentary to my Christian faith for they come gently from the heart of things, as their outlines become wonderfully sharper with familiarity so the so-called science/religion or evolution/creation debates become more a product of brute reasoning and that goes for both sides who choose to use our sacred texts for worthless opinions.

Rather than study this further I have a different request,if I may.

Dawn is often that time when our thoughts are less caught up in our daily routines and the pace of contemporary living.If you can,try and put into physical perspective just what is happening around you as the Earth rotates (leave the idea of ‘sunrise’ behind in other words) .

Astronomical or natural insights like matters of Faith come sometimes as brief glimpses or hazy outlines but with a little effort the outlines become sharper and more familiar.The Genesis chronology and the Book of Revelation are like that insofar as what looks nonsensical or fearsome to the unbeliever or to the novice becomes, with experience to the responsible and sincere, a wonderful complimetary facet of our Christian heritage.

 

[Benadam]

oriel36:

There is a lovely sadness to these mathematical facets regardless of how they are expressed,whether in Genesis or the highly developed form found in the Book of Revelation.It happens that some people begin to see the outlines emerge only to allow them to fade away and retreat back to the harsh or dour treatment others choose to approach the texts.

Ultimately they reveal that time is just beyond the point of now. Like sin is so massive that it collapsed in on it’self infinitely with all that was with it. That like time, eternity can no longer be grasped nor the reality that God is creating every moment. That Genesis is happening now and eternity is the present. That in corruption existence is experienced as once was, now is not, and is yet to come. That the soul seeks life that is but found where it is not.
That the end will meet the beginning and the elements again collapse on themselves infinitely and time will be no more.

 

[oriel36]

Benadam:

Oriel, my view of this day of 86,400 weeks is that it began after the fall and ended with the start of the flood. This is a misconception of what you mean? Time wouldn’t be a relevant issue beforehand since it is percieved differently before sin.
Am I misunderstanding?

The pattern of division is revealed in that timespan as well since sin begins it and judgement ends it. What a day for sure. Union is expressed in the symbol of the flood as a baptism and joins the next in a new covenant like as you mentioned the creative days are joined by the authors use of connective words.

Benadam

It often happens that more can be gained with the purpose and intents of these mathematical structures in Biblical texts from setting them aside than forcing meaning into them.To be practical about this,there are few who do not know the feeling of being stuck for a word in a crossword puzzle only for the word to come to them at an unexpected moment likewise you can expect this from the structure of Genesis.

I enjoyed the symbolism you use and have no objection whatsoever should you care to alter or expand it however the
86 400 weeks is an artificial division made from the genealogical chain that mirrors the amount of seconds in a day as we have come to know it.

60 sec X 60min X 24 hours = 86 400 sec

There is something wonderful at work behind all the hoopla of the evolution/creation debate ,it is up to Christians to recognise the heritage which contemporary opinions tend to obscure.

 

[oriel36]

Benadam:

Ultimately they reveal that time is just beyond the point of now. Like sin is so massive that it collapsed in on it’self infinitely with all that was with it. That like time, eternity can no longer be grasped nor the reality that God is creating every moment. That Genesis is happening now and eternity is the present. That in corruption existence is experienced as once was, now is not, and is yet to come. That the soul seeks life that is but found where it is not.
That the end will meet the beginning and the elements again collapse on themselves infinitely and time will be no more.

We all lose our balance sometimes and this is especially true of those whoes individual faith is drawn from contemplative contact rather than through strictly Catholic tradition.It is something we share with our people from another denomination and only foolishness of centuries ago seperates us.

ccel.org/ccel/underhill/mysticism.iv.xi.html

I understood the Book of Revealtion as a gift,a testimony to a balance that is not centred on knowledge or dominance but on the greatness of one human as representative of all.

 

[MaggieOH]

oriel36:

We all lose our balance sometimes and this is especially true of those whoes individual faith is drawn from contemplative contact rather than through strictly Catholic tradition.It is something we share with our people from another denomination and only foolishness of centuries ago seperates us.

ccel.org/ccel/underhill/mysticism.iv.xi.html

I understood the Book of Revealtion as a gift,a testimony to a balance that is not centred on knowledge or dominance but on the greatness of one human as representative of all.

I am not 100% sure what you mean by these comments. Contemplation is very much a part of the Catholic tradition. The real problem happens to be that we have not learned how to contemplate the Scriptures without getting into self-interpretation.

It is not contemplation of Scripture that is the problem, it is self-interpretation that remains the problem because that is when even Catholics become hoodwinked by ideas that are not supported by the Scripture.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

oriel36:

There is a lovely sadness to these mathematical facets regardless of how they are expressed,whether in Genesis or the highly developed form found in the Book of Revelation.It happens that some people begin to see the outlines emerge only to allow them to fade away and retreat back to the harsh or dour treatment others choose to approach the texts.

I have known these mathematical facets as complimentary to my Christian faith for they come gently from the heart of things, as their outlines become wonderfully sharper with familiarity so the so-called science/religion or evolution/creation debates become more a product of brute reasoning and that goes for both sides who choose to use our sacred texts for worthless opinions.

Rather than study this further I have a different request,if I may.

Dawn is often that time when our thoughts are less caught up in our daily routines and the pace of contemporary living.If you can,try and put into physical perspective just what is happening around you as the Earth rotates (leave the idea of ‘sunrise’ behind in other words) .

Astronomical or natural insights like matters of Faith come sometimes as brief glimpses or hazy outlines but with a little effort the outlines become sharper and more familiar.The Genesis chronology and the Book of Revelation are like that insofar as what looks nonsensical or fearsome to the unbeliever or to the novice becomes, with experience to the responsible and sincere, a wonderful complimetary facet of our Christian heritage.

I think that both of you are on the right track regarding both Genesis and the Book of Revelation. I happent to agree that within the last two centuries in particular there has been a distortion of understanding where both of these books are concerned. There are parts that are literal and there are parts that are not meant to be taken literally. I have a problem with the literal interpretation of Genesis prior to the flood and Noah.

What I see in the story of Creation is something that is well ordered and flows naturally. There is nothing in the Creation story that indicates that we are meant to interpret this story as being in a literal six days. An examination of the text indicates the order in which the earth was formed, and the flora and fauna appeared on the earth before man came into being. The phrase “Evening came and morning came: the nth day” indicates that author recognizes the passing of time, not just 24 hours.

This is the reason that I have found the discussion so interesting. The second account of Genesis is equally interesting. It reinforces the first account: “At the time when Yahweh God made earth and heaven there was as yet no wild bush on the earth nor had any wild plant yet sprung up”. Yet it offers an account that is of a different tradition.

MaggieOH

 

[Benadam]

MaggieOH:

I think that both of you are on the right track regarding both Genesis and the Book of Revelation. I happent to agree that within the last two centuries in particular there has been a distortion of understanding where both of these books are concerned. There are parts that are literal and there are parts that are not meant to be taken literally. I have a problem with the literal interpretation of Genesis prior to the flood and Noah.

What I see in the story of Creation is something that is well ordered and flows naturally. There is nothing in the Creation story that indicates that we are meant to interpret this story as being in a literal six days. An examination of the text indicates the order in which the earth was formed, and the flora and fauna appeared on the earth before man came into being. The phrase “Evening came and morning came: the nth day” indicates that author recognizes the passing of time, not just 24 hours.

This is the reason that I have found the discussion so interesting. The second account of Genesis is equally interesting. It reinforces the first account: “At the time when Yahweh God made earth and heaven there was as yet no wild bush on the earth nor had any wild plant yet sprung up”. Yet it offers an account that is of a different tradition.

MaggieOH

I see Genesis as a desription of the rise of consciousness produced by the faculties exclusive to humanity.
I see in the two accounts a perfect model of Christ and His Body but reversed. If you will endulge me for a bit I’ll give a brief description.

He made them male and female .* They* were in His image. Not a man and a woman but a male and female. An impersonal reference much like the way animals are refered to. Here I suggest man is realized as a collective body using the same concept as the Church is a Man as a collective body.

Nature served man yet they are commanded to populate , rule and subdue the earth. Earth and flesh are words that are interchangable throughout the bible. Why would God command that the earth be ruled and subdued when it by nature already served him? Because the faculties that angels have and seperate man from animal have just entered corporeality. Adam as a ‘body’ subdues the earth of his flesh bringing to completion the faculties of intellect and reason God endowed them with at their creation .

When the body of adam reaches a consciousness that can say with God “I am” not as individuals but as a collective, the faculties are complete and God can gather the ‘dust’ of the earth embody that as an individual man with awareness of self who’s will rules his flesh and is worthy of a name. Adam and his body are one man.

This description is a brief simplification of a part of the whole.

 

[oriel36]

MaggieOH:

I think that both of you are on the right track regarding both Genesis and the Book of Revelation. I happent to agree that within the last two centuries in particular there has been a distortion of understanding where both of these books are concerned. There are parts that are literal and there are parts that are not meant to be taken literally. I have a problem with the literal interpretation of Genesis prior to the flood and Noah.

MaggieOH

Unfortunately you just jumped the track for ultimately the direction of this thread relied on the ability to spot and take advantage of the connection between Genesis 1 and Gen 5 -7,the chronology from Adam to Noah in other words.

You have given yourself a luxury you don’t really have and despite the hoopla of the creation/evolution debate based on Gen 1 alone,neither does anyone else.I don’t have a problem with the literal interpretation of Gen 1 nor with its creationist proponents,the problem I have is with Catholics who try to sound reasonable at the expense of the Hebrew author and the wonderful mathematical facet he used to protect the Spiritual message from being swamped by the narrative by using a genealogical chain.

I am sorry if this sounds offensive but it is no more offensive than the careless mishandling of the texts for the subtleties and intricacies of the Genesis chronology show up in a highly developed form in the Johannine text notwithstanding that the Johannine author is explicit as to the artificial mathematical structure in his text.

Again,do you understand why the author uses the formula "evening came and morning followed " precisely ?.

 

[oriel36]

MaggieOH:

I. The phrase “Evening came and morning came: the nth day” indicates that author recognizes the passing of time, not just 24 hours.

MaggieOH

That phrase " evening came and morning followed" cannot be diluted from its intentional purpose of linking the text of Gen1 with Gen 5 - 7 .

It is your right to designate the overlapping day of the creation narrative with the genealogical chain as carelessness or a scribal oversight but I have shown you that it is not carelessness through the artificial but brilliant facet the author(s) created.

I strongly resent that my Judaeo-Christian heritage is being torn apart by non-believers who can point to creationist’s views on one side and lukewarm intepretations of Gen 1 on the other.

Do you wish to try again or not ?.

 

[oriel36]

MaggieOH:

I am not 100% sure what you mean by these comments. Contemplation is very much a part of the Catholic tradition. The real problem happens to be that we have not learned how to contemplate the Scriptures without getting into self-interpretation.

It is not contemplation of Scripture that is the problem, it is self-interpretation that remains the problem because that is when even Catholics become hoodwinked by ideas that are not supported by the Scripture.

MaggieOH

MaggieOH

Contemplation is little more than sharing the beauty of the insight of Christ and Christianity.It is not an intellectual effort looking for ‘deep’ meaning but a joyous adventure.Christianity is a belief of hope lived at the edge of despair or a belief that is lived at the edge of disbelief hence the commentary by that great Christian Evelyn Underhill on the lives of contemplative Christians throughout history.

I have no way of knowing how the mathematical facets of the biblical texts and especially Revelation resonate with Christians (makes them excited in other words)and unfortunately the intepretations appear either too dour (Rome/Nero) or too novelistics (refering to contemporary people and events).

The Book of Revelation is an ongoing miracle,it has its roots in the same traditions that give rise to the structure of Genesis,the Babylonian Gilgamesh,the Hindu Mahayuga/kaliyuga cycles and back further into antiquity but it will never be surpassed in subtlety and intricacy.

Rather than dilute this thread and the material in it further,I wish you well.

 

[Benadam]

oriel36:

MaggieOH

Contemplation is little more than sharing the beauty of the insight of Christ and Christianity.It is not an intellectual effort looking for ‘deep’ meaning but a joyous adventure.Christianity is a belief of hope lived at the edge of despair or a belief that is lived at the edge of disbelief hence the commentary by that great Christian Evelyn Underhill on the lives of contemplative Christians throughout history.

I have no way of knowing how the mathematical facets of the biblical texts and especially Revelation resonate with Christians (makes them excited in other words)and unfortunately the intepretations appear either too dour (Rome/Nero) or too novelistics (refering to contemporary people and events).

The Book of Revelation is an ongoing miracle,it has its roots in the same traditions that give rise to the structure of Genesis,the Babylonian Gilgamesh,the Hindu Mahayuga/kaliyuga cycles and back further into antiquity but it will never be surpassed in subtlety and intricacy.

Rather than dilute this thread and the material in it further,I wish you well.

Oriel36,
I hope you don’t mind my interjection here. The mathematical facet you presented resonated well with me. I find it a refinement of numerology in the biblical text that I’ve up to this point not been exposed too.

I feel that since the structure of material reality can be defined with numbers through the science of physics that the traces of God’s interventions and His eternal quality infused within it can be defined as well.

I disagree with your presentation of the babylonian tradition sharing it’s roots in Genesis and the limitation you impose on comtemplative prayer but appreciate and am thankfull for your mathematical contribution.

 

[MaggieOH]

oriel36:

That phrase " evening came and morning followed" cannot be diluted from its intentional purpose of linking the text of Gen1 with Gen 5 - 7 .

It is your right to designate the overlapping day of the creation narrative with the genealogical chain as carelessness or a scribal oversight but I have shown you that it is not carelessness through the artificial but brilliant facet the author(s) created.

I strongly resent that my Judaeo-Christian heritage is being torn apart by non-believers who can point to creationist’s views on one side and lukewarm intepretations of Gen 1 on the other.

Do you wish to try again or not ?.

I am sorry but I am not following what you are trying to say here. The purpose of the Creation accounts is to tell God’s Truth. It is not meant to be either historical or literal. It conveys the message of the orderliness of Creation, but the one thing it does not say is that God created everything in 6 literal days.

Why do you say that I am a non-believer, just because I said I believe the Creation stories tells God’s Truth.

I do not accept the too literal interpretation of Genesis because it is perfectly clear that the earth existed for a much longer time than Creationists allow. At the same time I reject the Darwinian theory of evolution. There is a point in between the two extremes.

If one accepts that God made the world over a period of ages that does not make that person a non-believer. If one accepts that Jesus Christ is the Redeemer of the World, then one also accepts the Truth that is found in the Genesis account regarding the story of Creation and of the Fall.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

Benadam:

I see Genesis as a desription of the rise of consciousness produced by the faculties exclusive to humanity.
I see in the two accounts a perfect model of Christ and His Body but reversed. If you will endulge me for a bit I’ll give a brief description.

He made them male and female .* They* were in His image. Not a man and a woman but a male and female. An impersonal reference much like the way animals are refered to. Here I suggest man is realized as a collective body using the same concept as the Church is a Man as a collective body.

Nature served man yet they are commanded to populate , rule and subdue the earth. Earth and flesh are words that are interchangable throughout the bible. Why would God command that the earth be ruled and subdued when it by nature already served him? Because the faculties that angels have and seperate man from animal have just entered corporeality. Adam as a ‘body’ subdues the earth of his flesh bringing to completion the faculties of intellect and reason God endowed them with at their creation .

When the body of adam reaches a consciousness that can say with God “I am” not as individuals but as a collective, the faculties are complete and God can gather the ‘dust’ of the earth embody that as an individual man with awareness of self who’s will rules his flesh and is worthy of a name. Adam and his body are one man.

This description is a brief simplification of a part of the whole.

I think that you make a good point on how you see Genesis. This book is pivotal as to how we understand the remainder of the Scripture, the Fall, and Christ’s act of Redemption.

Since Genesis is an account of how a primitive people understand the Creation and the beginning of evil in the world, I am comfortable with what you are trying to convey.

MaggieOH