R
rlg94086
Guest
Youâre doing better than I didâŚbut, I didnât convert until later, so itâs okay. 
- Status
Youâre doing better than I didâŚbut, I didnât convert until later, so itâs okay.
L
Lynn-D
Guest
You seem to be saying that someone in the church might have the last word. Let them then show me. All I have seen so far is ambiguity and fence sitting. I have tried to show you that there is definitive supportive science that shows clear indication of brain, chromosomal and gene anomalies that make the determination of what sex we are even before we are born. You choose to ignore and claim some sort of divine guidance rather than realize that the research perhaps is not perfect in its entirety, but it is very definitive as it applies.
Rachel, like me, was given at birth confusion. Are you suggesting that our minds can not separate the confusion as it pertains to us? We were both found to be sterile. Does that mean that God intended us not to have sex because we could not procreate? Some who marry do not know beforehand they are sterile. What would you suggest, the marriage be annulled once it is found one or the other is sterile?
When I went to my priest he looked at me and the paperwork I supplied and agreed as did the bishop that I was female. I had no male genitalia and that which I did have was forever gone. It was never suggested I needed to be celibate either.
I do not compare myself one bit to a person who has a religious calling and elects to be celibate and I would never insult them or demean them. I was in no way referring to them at all as I think most would agree who DID read my words.
Theirs is the chosen life that they accept for themselves. That is church doctrine, I will not assume it to be Godâs word though. Centuries ago bishops, priests and even popes married. The doctrine of man might change but not Godâs mandate and nowhere do I see anything about people like us. And whether you accept it or not God mandated I be what I am. I would never choose it for myself. He designed me. He also did not give me a calling to be celibate I am sure. His reasons will someday be clear but as of now ignorant men seem to think they know what God means and says. Must be this new age of the cell phone that gives some info and others none.
I do not have a religious calling but I know I was called to love and in fact I love the man I am married to and no one will ever suggest to me that he and I might be living in sin. We are not, and I firmly believe God if here on earth and did actually speak to you He would agree with me for I feel no guilt or reason to feel I have sinned in any way.
To call an Intersexed a hermaphrodite is an insult now-a-days and to call either an intersexed or even a post-op transsexual a transgender is demeaning and also an insult. I know having been called both: the former by an insurance doctor and the later by the boys who mimic women but would never be one as I know myself to be. They are what they are and I can not speak for them but I can speak for myself. I do not speak for Rachel but I think I fully understand her feelings and she is a woman, not what you might insist upon labeling her.
Whether you or the church realizes it many of those like us already have left the Catholic Church rather than be cast in the role of an unwelcome sinner. They did not leave because of what they were at birth but because there are just to many in the church who condemn without the right to do so. I came close to leaving but my faith was stronger perhaps. Not so sure I too might have to abandon a faith that I thought sustained me because of the ignorance and demands made by those who have no idea of the pain we have already suffered. How will they answer to God I wonder when he asks, why?
I was reminded today of the suffering of Jesus when I took the palm into my hands. I kissed it as a sign of love, the love I feel He has for me as well. If I die today it will be in the state of grace. Period!
Lynn-D
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rlg94086
Guest
Lynn-D,
Blessings this Palm Sunday. You seem to be really angry with me, and Iâm sorry you feel that way. Just to clear up a couple of thingsâŚ
I donât believe Iâve called anyone a hermaphrodite or transgendered on this thread. Iâve referred to Rachel as âRachelâ and âherâ because in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I accept her self-description as a woman. I havenât labeled her anything.
Iâve never made a judgment about your marriage or your particular case. If your bishop and priest determined everything was in order and married you, why in the world would I?
What I do know about celibacy outside of those who have chosen the religious life, is that the only way a âhomosexualâ can avoid the sin of sodomy is to be celibate. In the case of someone whose gender is undetermined, I would suspect this would be the same.
You provided scientific âevidenceâ, and all I said is that this is not universally accepted. Are you telling me it *is *universally accepted? I think that is an overstatement.
Iâve never said there is âone personâ who would have the last word in Rachelâs case. Iâve recommend she not take her priestâs word and talk to bioethicists, her bishop, possibly even all the way to Rome - not get what *she *wants, but to try to determine the Churchâs teaching.
You seem very certain of your calling and certain of your state of grace (Iâm hoping thatâs because you also confessed before Mass), certain the Church is wrong about Rachel - much more certain than I am. As far as I am concerned, I am a sinner and with Godâs grace I hope to make it into heaven. I also pray that you and Rachel make it to heaven, as well.
God bless,
Robert
Lynn-D:
Blessings this Palm Sunday. You seem to be really angry with me, and Iâm sorry you feel that way. Just to clear up a couple of thingsâŚ
I donât believe Iâve called anyone a hermaphrodite or transgendered on this thread. Iâve referred to Rachel as âRachelâ and âherâ because in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I accept her self-description as a woman. I havenât labeled her anything.
Iâve never made a judgment about your marriage or your particular case. If your bishop and priest determined everything was in order and married you, why in the world would I?
What I do know about celibacy outside of those who have chosen the religious life, is that the only way a âhomosexualâ can avoid the sin of sodomy is to be celibate. In the case of someone whose gender is undetermined, I would suspect this would be the same.
You provided scientific âevidenceâ, and all I said is that this is not universally accepted. Are you telling me it *is *universally accepted? I think that is an overstatement.
Iâve never said there is âone personâ who would have the last word in Rachelâs case. Iâve recommend she not take her priestâs word and talk to bioethicists, her bishop, possibly even all the way to Rome - not get what *she *wants, but to try to determine the Churchâs teaching.
You seem very certain of your calling and certain of your state of grace (Iâm hoping thatâs because you also confessed before Mass), certain the Church is wrong about Rachel - much more certain than I am. As far as I am concerned, I am a sinner and with Godâs grace I hope to make it into heaven. I also pray that you and Rachel make it to heaven, as well.
God bless,
Robert
J
JPIIFan
Guest
Pathia, this is the best advice here, I believe. From what I understand, Canon law is shaky on the status of intersexed individuals, as to whether sex is defined by chromosomes or manifested sexual characteristics. Basically, if you can establish legal status as a male or female and are able to consummate a marriage, you should be able to marry within the Catholic Church. You are not the first person to have some sort of chromosomal anomaly. Check out what the current law is.
Iâm sure your own priest means well, but heâs almost certainly not a specialist in this kind of question. Get a lawyer and see where you stand.
L
Lynn-D
Guest
Angry, I rarely get angry but I am very frustrated. Now perhaps I am much annoyed by your first paragraph that puts us in the same pot as the homosexuals. Do you think we are somehow like them and act in their manner? If so this discussion has ended.
Your referrence to gender is misleading. Our gender at birth was female, (brain). Our sex, (genital), was thought to be male from all outward signs and that can and in my case has been corrected.
I did submit to the church through my priest and bishop. As I said my corrected baptismal certificate is valid but the section dealing with Holy Orders is crossed out meaning I cannot take Holy Orders. As a female I would not be able to be a priest anyway now would I?
Confessed? About what? About having a born ambiguity. As far as I know that is not a sin. Or are we now to be listed as such and need to confess before mass.
Last year at this time I had to go into the hospital for open heart surgery to have my aortic valve replaced. It was a Catholic Hospital by the way. The week before surgery my husband went to the priest and asked if I might be anointed. So before mass that Sunday the priest took me into the alcove beside the altar and heard my confession and anointed me with oils. That is how I adhere to the practices of my faith. If Rachel goes to confession and admits to any real sins, not those others may think are existent, then I would think she too would be in the state of grace. And why not?
There is still debate but not on the original findings which are being validated with more and more supportive research each and every day. There is nothing that contradicts the evidence that has been presented so far. But instead of you accepting that these findings are or could be indicative of truth you make in essence a claim that somehow because a finding is inconclusive by its lack of total claim it is perhaps a negative. What there is out there is open to debate perhaps in some circles but in the scientific community it is well accepted as being valid and the leading edge of advanced proof of there being a causative fact for those born intersexed and/or transsexual. Simply not accepting scientific findings by the ignorant is not proof that their ostrich head in the sand is more valid.
In defense of the church may I make a comment. When I approached my priest for a change of baptismal certificate the church was open to medical facts. Then along came the transgenders with their fetish claims that had nothing to do with intersexed or transsexuals. But the church was so overwhelmed with their insistence that they, men, be accepted that the church entrenched itself and stopped the change of certificates. I am one of the few that does have a valid baptismal certificate in my female name. Many of my Catholic âsistersâ have been denied and since then have turned their back on the church that shunned them. It pains me they took that course but I understand their feelings!
I, and also Rachel from what she said, am not a fetishist, a homosexual, a hedonist, an exhibitionist, an illusionist, or any of those elements that come under the transgender label such as transvestite, gay crossdresser, drag-queen, sex worker (many of whom say they are intersexed and/or transsexual to hide their filth and give themselves false medical legitimacy) or any of those things that might defile my spirit or my body. I am a legally recognized woman by both my government and my church.
I see nothing more to be gained from further discussion on this matter. I have much info on this subject but why bother in trying to open closed minds.
Lynn-D
L
LittleDeb
Guest
Before I say anything else I want to make sure to say a true, heart-felt thank you for helping to educate. Out of ignorance I know I have said or thought offensive things and would like to better understand. I have posted a few times in this thread, but have tried to just read and understand for the most part.
I quoted this part since this is the most difficult part for me to understand. Please know that I ask my questions with the intention of dignity and respect. If I offend please let me know. I want to understand and cannot without asking questions. So here goes:
Since we know that people exist who suffer from (or promote) the problems you note, how are we, (folks like me) to know the difference? I believe you, that through your struggles you have in fact found that you have the brain of a woman and suffered through ambiguous genitalia formation. Is sterility one of the main factors? How can I tell the difference between a man who is promoting âfalse medical legitimacyâ and claiming to be female and a female who is intersexed?
The person I know who went through sex reassignment surgery after fathering a child, has always seemed to me to be from the list of gender-bending that you describe. Out of respect, I have refered to her as she has asked, as female. But, it does seem as though she is âmimicing womenâ as you said. She still claims attraction to women. She fits every aspect on the list of the Johns Hokins article on SRS. (Finds the new body sexually stimulating, overly large hands and facial features, and attraction to women, just to name a few.)
I still respect this person as a human being, no matter what. I know that is my job as a fellow human being. Is it none of my business what sex or gender she claims to have? If it is my business how do I know the difference? I do find it offensive, as a woman, when a male becomes a woman. I do not, however, find it offensive when a person who is truly intersexed declares their sex and or gender. I do agree with you that the brain is male or female. Can the brain be right and the mind still be wrong? How do we know who is commiting wrong acts and who is truly trying to align body, brain, and soul?
S
setter
Guest
I do not believe that anyone is telling this person to suffer needlessly. This is a distortion of compassion and the gospel. They are trying to assist with determining her moral medical and vocational options. For anyone to claim that the path to eternal life does not involve suffering and that Jesus suffered so that we wouldnât have to, is a serious, serious distortion of the message of redemption and sanctification. See this link to the Apostolic Letter by JPII that deals exclusively with the Chrisitian meaning of human suffering.
APOSTOLIC LETTER
SALVIFICI DOLORIS
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
TO THE BISHOPS, TO THE PRIESTS,
TO THE RELIGIOUS FAMILIES
AND TO THE FAITHFUL
OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE CHRISTIAN MEANING
OF HUMAN SUFFERING
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html
Excerpt:
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Lynn-D
Guest
Hi Deb,
Thank you for your interest but more important, your honesty. Let me try to give you some insight but forgive me if some of my answers do not satisfy your questions.
First, please understand that sexual orientation and sexual genitals have nothing in common. There are those intersexed and transsexuals who have female brains their sexual orientation is to same sex. The question you are asking has to do with confusion of some and outright deception by others in regard to what sex the brain might be in relationship to the genitals. Now that is the dilly. Maybe best to start with how I was treated and go from there.
When I was 17 I was a smart tyke and entered college. The campus was not too far from Johns Hopkins and I knew that I had to face my strong inherent need to be understood and take some actions that would resolve my problem of brain and sex. As my luck would have it Johns Hopkins was closing its treatment of those who thought they were transsexual which I accepted myself to be: I still do since that is the diagnosis given me pre surgery. But, I am one that also believes that true transsexuals are intersexed because the brain and body do not conform one to the other. That is confusing I know but many do not find out they are intersexed until blood tests are done or as in my case find out after srs. Research is proving this out as the links I provided show. Later during a heart procedure I bled anally and in further tests it was determined I had been born without a prostate and only a mass of blood vessels were where the prostate should have been which because of blood thinners bled out and had to be cauterized. Of course that explained why I was always sterile and also led to the medical suspicion of me being intersexed. I really did not need to know what I was medically since I had been living my life as the woman I am for over 30 yrs at that time.
Before I go further perhaps you should know that I contacted Dr Harry Benjamin after the Johns Hopkins denial. He was the leading pioneer in gender identity problems at the time. He assigned me to his associate to be diagnosed and if warranted, treated. The treatment over time involved hormones and testing to determine no damage was done to my body during the two years I was on injectable and oral hormones. I also was required to live and work as a woman during that time which I did. Now, that Standard of Care has been bypassed by many and it has caused the confusion you and others have a right to feel.
Dr Benjamin had three criteria of diagnosis for transsexuals: #1. primary TSâs - those who knew they were of the wrong sex, and it could be validated by family and/or friends, long before the onset of puberty. #2. Secondary TSâs - those who became clearly aware after puberty they too had a body not in alignment with their brain sex. #3. This is the group that now muddies the waters. They are the ones Dr Benjamin described as transvestic transsexuals. Of these three categories only the first two would be approved for srs and the third would be referred to psychiatrists or therapists for care and acceptance of what apparently was a fetish behavior. They would never be approved for srs. Usually those like me in the first group would get approval in about six months because of the certainty of the condition. The second grouping would be held over for a longer term analysis just to make absolutely certain. The last group I explained.
Getting long so will continue in next post. OK? continued>
Thank you for your interest but more important, your honesty. Let me try to give you some insight but forgive me if some of my answers do not satisfy your questions.
First, please understand that sexual orientation and sexual genitals have nothing in common. There are those intersexed and transsexuals who have female brains their sexual orientation is to same sex. The question you are asking has to do with confusion of some and outright deception by others in regard to what sex the brain might be in relationship to the genitals. Now that is the dilly. Maybe best to start with how I was treated and go from there.
When I was 17 I was a smart tyke and entered college. The campus was not too far from Johns Hopkins and I knew that I had to face my strong inherent need to be understood and take some actions that would resolve my problem of brain and sex. As my luck would have it Johns Hopkins was closing its treatment of those who thought they were transsexual which I accepted myself to be: I still do since that is the diagnosis given me pre surgery. But, I am one that also believes that true transsexuals are intersexed because the brain and body do not conform one to the other. That is confusing I know but many do not find out they are intersexed until blood tests are done or as in my case find out after srs. Research is proving this out as the links I provided show. Later during a heart procedure I bled anally and in further tests it was determined I had been born without a prostate and only a mass of blood vessels were where the prostate should have been which because of blood thinners bled out and had to be cauterized. Of course that explained why I was always sterile and also led to the medical suspicion of me being intersexed. I really did not need to know what I was medically since I had been living my life as the woman I am for over 30 yrs at that time.
Before I go further perhaps you should know that I contacted Dr Harry Benjamin after the Johns Hopkins denial. He was the leading pioneer in gender identity problems at the time. He assigned me to his associate to be diagnosed and if warranted, treated. The treatment over time involved hormones and testing to determine no damage was done to my body during the two years I was on injectable and oral hormones. I also was required to live and work as a woman during that time which I did. Now, that Standard of Care has been bypassed by many and it has caused the confusion you and others have a right to feel.
Dr Benjamin had three criteria of diagnosis for transsexuals: #1. primary TSâs - those who knew they were of the wrong sex, and it could be validated by family and/or friends, long before the onset of puberty. #2. Secondary TSâs - those who became clearly aware after puberty they too had a body not in alignment with their brain sex. #3. This is the group that now muddies the waters. They are the ones Dr Benjamin described as transvestic transsexuals. Of these three categories only the first two would be approved for srs and the third would be referred to psychiatrists or therapists for care and acceptance of what apparently was a fetish behavior. They would never be approved for srs. Usually those like me in the first group would get approval in about six months because of the certainty of the condition. The second grouping would be held over for a longer term analysis just to make absolutely certain. The last group I explained.
Getting long so will continue in next post. OK? continued>
L
Lynn-D
Guest
Please understand that many in these programs were intersexed but not diagnosed as such. No dna back then nor the testing procedures now available. Chromosome tests would cost in the range of $600 in the late 60âs and that was out of pocket money which most of us did not have. So we just followed the diagnosis and treatment which also applied to those that were proven to be intersexed as well. A close friend had her genitalia operated on as an infant and was raised a boy. Her corrective surgery from male to female was listed as sex reassignment since it was legally established from birth she was male even if wrong. That happened often but mostly in the reverse. And please do not confuse the size of someone who might be intersexed or transsexual. Many in these categories are tall and lanky which is often the case with those having Klinefelters xxy. They are not as obvious as the CAH intersexed.
In answer to your question in regard to your friend I can only make an observation and nothing more than that. I cannot nor would I make an assumption of what she might be or could be. She may not like it but many of us see in her a common pattern which seems to be taking over. There is today a condition known as autogynephilia. It means one who is a transvestite who goes the âextraâ step after the initial fetishism has âworn downâ. Once they were satisfied to simply mimic women with the wearing of feminine garb but in later years their fetish became uncontrollable and it seems they needed to expand it not only by being feminine in outer appearance but also to be able to look at their acquired female genitalia as an extension of the fetish. They usually classify themselves as transgender and I feel they do so just to exclaim themselves as being female without explaining the need to accept what they did had anything to do with sex. Sort of a masking tool which the term transgender was created initially to provide. They are for the most part self proclaimed lesbians who have no interest in males but only wish to continue in relationships with females. They are the same ones that Dr Benjamin would have refused to recommend for srs. They are the ones I referred to as claiming medical legitimacy. Also the ongoing pattern is that most of those in this category have srs after they no longer need to work and even into later retirement years. I personally do not consider them anything more than transvestites that took the âextraâ step, autogynephilics in fact.
This is long so rather than over step the word limitation in this forum let me continue in the next post. Ok? Continued>
In answer to your question in regard to your friend I can only make an observation and nothing more than that. I cannot nor would I make an assumption of what she might be or could be. She may not like it but many of us see in her a common pattern which seems to be taking over. There is today a condition known as autogynephilia. It means one who is a transvestite who goes the âextraâ step after the initial fetishism has âworn downâ. Once they were satisfied to simply mimic women with the wearing of feminine garb but in later years their fetish became uncontrollable and it seems they needed to expand it not only by being feminine in outer appearance but also to be able to look at their acquired female genitalia as an extension of the fetish. They usually classify themselves as transgender and I feel they do so just to exclaim themselves as being female without explaining the need to accept what they did had anything to do with sex. Sort of a masking tool which the term transgender was created initially to provide. They are for the most part self proclaimed lesbians who have no interest in males but only wish to continue in relationships with females. They are the same ones that Dr Benjamin would have refused to recommend for srs. They are the ones I referred to as claiming medical legitimacy. Also the ongoing pattern is that most of those in this category have srs after they no longer need to work and even into later retirement years. I personally do not consider them anything more than transvestites that took the âextraâ step, autogynephilics in fact.
This is long so rather than over step the word limitation in this forum let me continue in the next post. Ok? Continued>
L
Lynn-D
Guest
<continued Hi again Deb
I know many who have been in a relationship with a woman and even married. Some even had children. They are transsexuals and rarely intersexed except that they too also fall into the brain non-alignment with body syndrome. Here it gets difficult for some to understand. When an intersexed and/or transsexual is growing up they are faced with difficulties the average person can not understand. They live in fear and are teased often and beat up on a regular basis because of what others see them to be. I still have scars myself. In an attempt to protect themselves many just give in and try to adjust to what the outer body shell declares them to be. They hide and conform. This causes such deep and painful difficulties that many simply give up and commit suicide. They might marry in the hope of masking their real feelings to society. They live in fear of losing their family, job, professions, friends, etc. so the lie continues. Some take their own lives after a time and no one knows the real reason. When I had my surgery I was told that the percentage of deaths for srs was 12%. That was not a barrier really seeing as the suicide rate was suspected in the 50% range for ISâs and TSâs at the time. I was one of the lucky ones that knew and accepted my need to address and correct a problem at an early age and I did so.
I really do not think it possible for those like you to recognize those like me. That I would suggest is what competent doctors should be doing as did Dr Benjamin. To many quacks today. Now-a-days many just bypass the process; take illegal hormones or get them from a doctor without him first him making an educated examination and diagnosis both physically and mentally; then they run off to foreign countries where only a simple letter from a therapist might suffice. Most of these in my mind are autogynephilics and usually self proclaimed lesbian types. I even know three doctors who themselves changed sex, one is an admitted autogynephilic and herself a therapist; the other two are surgeons. This adds to the confusion being imposed upon society. They make strong claim that gender and orientation are two different things. Maybe so for them but not for me.
I am not a doctor so I expect that perhaps I might be seen as an elitist because I firmly believe that unless one is actually diagnosed as an intersexed or a primary or secondary transsexual the surgery should never be approved. Just because someone can afford srs does not mean they are intersexed or transsexual in my mind. To many transgenderists are overwhelming and bypassing the process and that is harming those truly in need. Some transgender claim it is their right of choice. Sorry, but in my world we never had a choice. We were born different and did not choose to be that way.
Every single patient of Dr Benjaminâs that I keep in touch with are heterosexuals like myself. We are either married, were married or are involved with males in heterosexual relationships. We changed sex to truly conform to our female brain socially and in sexual orientation. That is how we felt from early days when we too shared with the girls in the playground crushes on boys. No, we hid and did not show our feelings although very much I suppose jealous of those who were whole in mind and body. Some of us did try to date girls and some even tried to have sex. Need not go into that but the disaster has to be measured to that of the Titanic from the stories I have been told. It was at times laughable and at the same time sorrowful for we knew it was a sad hoax not only imposed upon others but on ourselves.
Want some confusion? I know a post-op who married a woman who was pregnant. He was sterile so could not father children but when the baby was born it was assumed by all it was his. He did this to offer legitimacy to the child and mostly I think to hide himself in fatherhood so his family and friends would simply accept him as normal. That was his longtime fear, being treated as an oddity. Later the stress took its toll and he tried to take his own life. Once in recovery it finally hit him that he could not continue to live a lie so he with the agreement of the medical staff at the County Hospital started treatment toward srs. His âwifeâ totally agreed with the diagnosis and went on her way after the divorce and remarried. Now that I suppose does not happen often but in this case it at least ended without to much hurt to the spouse or the child who was to young to know the circumstances.
If you have any further questions I would be only too happy to make the effort to answer. I think though that never will I be able to eliminate the confusion that is rampart now-a-days.
END OF POSTS. Thank God. Tired me out. Lynn-D
I know many who have been in a relationship with a woman and even married. Some even had children. They are transsexuals and rarely intersexed except that they too also fall into the brain non-alignment with body syndrome. Here it gets difficult for some to understand. When an intersexed and/or transsexual is growing up they are faced with difficulties the average person can not understand. They live in fear and are teased often and beat up on a regular basis because of what others see them to be. I still have scars myself. In an attempt to protect themselves many just give in and try to adjust to what the outer body shell declares them to be. They hide and conform. This causes such deep and painful difficulties that many simply give up and commit suicide. They might marry in the hope of masking their real feelings to society. They live in fear of losing their family, job, professions, friends, etc. so the lie continues. Some take their own lives after a time and no one knows the real reason. When I had my surgery I was told that the percentage of deaths for srs was 12%. That was not a barrier really seeing as the suicide rate was suspected in the 50% range for ISâs and TSâs at the time. I was one of the lucky ones that knew and accepted my need to address and correct a problem at an early age and I did so.
I really do not think it possible for those like you to recognize those like me. That I would suggest is what competent doctors should be doing as did Dr Benjamin. To many quacks today. Now-a-days many just bypass the process; take illegal hormones or get them from a doctor without him first him making an educated examination and diagnosis both physically and mentally; then they run off to foreign countries where only a simple letter from a therapist might suffice. Most of these in my mind are autogynephilics and usually self proclaimed lesbian types. I even know three doctors who themselves changed sex, one is an admitted autogynephilic and herself a therapist; the other two are surgeons. This adds to the confusion being imposed upon society. They make strong claim that gender and orientation are two different things. Maybe so for them but not for me.
I am not a doctor so I expect that perhaps I might be seen as an elitist because I firmly believe that unless one is actually diagnosed as an intersexed or a primary or secondary transsexual the surgery should never be approved. Just because someone can afford srs does not mean they are intersexed or transsexual in my mind. To many transgenderists are overwhelming and bypassing the process and that is harming those truly in need. Some transgender claim it is their right of choice. Sorry, but in my world we never had a choice. We were born different and did not choose to be that way.
Every single patient of Dr Benjaminâs that I keep in touch with are heterosexuals like myself. We are either married, were married or are involved with males in heterosexual relationships. We changed sex to truly conform to our female brain socially and in sexual orientation. That is how we felt from early days when we too shared with the girls in the playground crushes on boys. No, we hid and did not show our feelings although very much I suppose jealous of those who were whole in mind and body. Some of us did try to date girls and some even tried to have sex. Need not go into that but the disaster has to be measured to that of the Titanic from the stories I have been told. It was at times laughable and at the same time sorrowful for we knew it was a sad hoax not only imposed upon others but on ourselves.
Want some confusion? I know a post-op who married a woman who was pregnant. He was sterile so could not father children but when the baby was born it was assumed by all it was his. He did this to offer legitimacy to the child and mostly I think to hide himself in fatherhood so his family and friends would simply accept him as normal. That was his longtime fear, being treated as an oddity. Later the stress took its toll and he tried to take his own life. Once in recovery it finally hit him that he could not continue to live a lie so he with the agreement of the medical staff at the County Hospital started treatment toward srs. His âwifeâ totally agreed with the diagnosis and went on her way after the divorce and remarried. Now that I suppose does not happen often but in this case it at least ended without to much hurt to the spouse or the child who was to young to know the circumstances.
If you have any further questions I would be only too happy to make the effort to answer. I think though that never will I be able to eliminate the confusion that is rampart now-a-days.
END OF POSTS. Thank God. Tired me out. Lynn-D
R
rlg94086
Guest
Iâm done conversing with you. I did not lump those who are intersexed with homosexuals. All I did was explain that celibacy is the only way to avoid sexual sin for homosexuals.
In the case of someone who is intersexed, identifies as a woman, has a relationship with a man, but has male genitalia, they also would need to abstain from sex in order to avoid sexual sin.
I donât know why that isnât clear to you. If you want to get angry, so be it.
I was talking about confesssion in general, not about your sexuality. We all have to confess, in order to be in a state of graceâŚnot just go to Mass. I didnât read this post any further than that, because you seem to delight in twisting my words and meaning around.
I hope you mental maturity catches up with your physcial maturity.
Lynn-D:
In the case of someone who is intersexed, identifies as a woman, has a relationship with a man, but has male genitalia, they also would need to abstain from sex in order to avoid sexual sin.
I donât know why that isnât clear to you. If you want to get angry, so be it.
I was talking about confesssion in general, not about your sexuality. We all have to confess, in order to be in a state of graceâŚnot just go to Mass. I didnât read this post any further than that, because you seem to delight in twisting my words and meaning around.
I hope you mental maturity catches up with your physcial maturity.
L
Lynn-D
Guest
Iâm done conversing with you. I did not lump those who are intersexed with homosexuals.
I think perhaps you need to read what you write. You mix in the same paragraph separate conditions as if the both are subject to the same understanding.
âWhat I do know about celibacy outside of those who have chosen the religious life, is that the only way a âhomosexualâ can avoid the sin of sodomy is to be celibate. In the case of someone whose gender is undetermined, I would suspect this would be the same.â]
In the case of someone who is intersexed, identifies as a woman, has a relationship with a man, but has male genitalia, they also would need to abstain from sex in order to avoid sexual sin.
Suppose that is Catholic teaching as you understand it but let us be honest, intersexed is not homosexuality. Some who might have limited male sexual apparatus are to remain celibate for life if not able to afford srs? Is that what you are saying? They think as women and act as women. I know this is confusing but they actually do not act as a homosexual would and should not be compared to them. To do so only adds to the pain.
I donât know why that isnât clear to you. If you want to get angry, so be it.
I never really get angry as I have stated. I do get annoyed if faced with ignorance and prejudice though.
I was talking about confesssion in general, not about your sexuality. We all have to confess, in order to be in a state of graceâŚnot just go to Mass. I didnât read this post any further than that, because you seem to delight in twisting my words and meaning around.
I would want to know from your perspective what is it that you think we need to confess in order to be in the state of grace?
I deal with specifics and your posts often seem to be ambiguous and confusing. You linked confession to sex in a manner difficult for me to understand. If I misunderstood then I apologize.
I hope you mental maturity catches up with your physcial maturity.
Guess I will have to go back to college and tell my professors that the awards I won for my presentations should be withdrawn. I also should tell you that I have been examined by the best shrinks in the world since I was the first in my area of my state to apply for official legal recognition after srs. I was commended for having addressed my condition and dealing with others in such a mature and informative manner. And to add to the issue I must also tell you that I have had a very successful life and even served as the president of a homeowners association which included 500 properties. Maybe if I was more mature it might have grown to 501 properties.
B
beckers
Guest
After reading all the comments and then reading this all i can say is WOW your amazing. Some of the comments here have been pretty harsh on questioning your commitment to the church. The fact that you are living up to what God calls all of us non-married people to do by abstaining from sex shows your commitment to your faith. It also shows you understand love and that you have respect for yourself and your partner. And the fact that you are trying to find out the answer BEFORE you get married or go through with any changes shows that you have a deep love and commitment towards God and his will. Donât let anyone of this board make you question your faith.
I do have a little experience in seeing someone go through problems with their body and the churches position. My roommate has a genetic and/or chromosome disorder that makes her body produce too much testosterone and such. It causes the females to look and have body reactions that are more male than female. She struggled a lot with if she would be allowed to marry and such since it will be almost medically impossible for her to have children at all. It will totally be only by Godâs will. Now I know her situation is a little different because she genetically a female and such but the emotional stress was a lot and she really had to dig to find out and answer from the priest on what her status would be. A lot of it was finding out the answer and being able accepting the churches position. When her gut said something wasnât quite right with the answer she kept digging and always ask âWHY NOTâ or âCan you explain it to meâ. My suggestion is find out as much info you can on your own and give that info to your priest. IF he toss you aside because he doesnât have the knowledge then talk to another priest or go straight to the bishops office. Keep searching until you get an answer. Not all priest have the ability to comprehend all the medical problems and the churches position on it. My prayers are with you!
P.S. I agree with the other poster. I would never had noticed that you werenât a female.
R
rlg94086
Guest
You are calling me an ignorant bigot? You are equating âhomosexual actsâ with âacting like a homosexualâ. They are not the same. Sexual sin has nothing to do with how one acts; it has to do with how they have sex. An intersexed woman without female genitalia can not have sex with a man without sinning. This is simply a fact. Now, I donât know what the Churchâs stance is on the medical changing of genitalia, so I havenât commented. You are taking offense for no reason.
If I were to lose my genitalia in an accident, I also would have to live a celibate life in order to remain chaste, even though I am married. This wouldnât make me a homosexual, any more than it would make Rachel a homosexual. Is that clear?
I am aware of the issue and the problems (therefore not ignorant) and I donât believe Iâve acted in a bigoted manner. If so, tell me how. The OP asked a question on a Catholic Forum regarding the Churchâs stance on her sexual condition. I told her to check further and I have not made a judgment concerning what she should do with her life.
As far as confession, I never linked the two. I mentioned confession because you said you were in a state of grace. That usually involves contrite confession, but you insinuated it was because you just left Mass. Plenty of people leave Mass who are not in a state of grace. You chose to think I was asking if you had confessed to sexual sinâŚfor all I know, you may have missed the previous Mass without a valid reason? I donât know what kind of sins you commit!!
Anyway, the mental comment was inappropriate and uncharitable, so please accept my apology.
P
pathia
Guest
This is where the church has seemingly multiple stances, but there is reason for it.
If the changing of genitalia is done right after birth to âclarify sex/genderâ then they consider it moral, because it brings the body closer to the male/female binary that God created, marriage is allowed.
Though actually the medical community has started to stop the practice because so many children question why they have all these scars, peers mock them for their differences (Children are so meanâŚI was constantly called a faggot and a fairy because of my effeminate form and body. Nevermind the fact I couldnât help the way God made me!), and some question that assignment. Since the surgery is final/irreversible there is nothing to be done should the child realize they are opposite their surgery assignment. So now they recomend to hold off until the child has a true sense of self and can say âI am a Xâ. They do not however say to raise the child androgynously, you assign a gender/sex, just not with surgery.
However, when pubertal intersex issues come to light, or someone questions their original sexual assignment, like myself and Lynn, it becomes very cloudy. Like Lynn has noted, there are people that more or less hijack the system, thus the church cannot distinguish between intersexuals/transexuals and transgenders.
After reflection and digging through websites this is why, I think. If the Church were to say âintersexuals can marry after surgeryâ then a transgender could abuse it and marry in a Catholic setting.
Rachel
R
rlg94086
Guest
Hi Rachel,
Wouldnât it be easy for someone to verify to the Church that they are intersexed by showing medical records? It seems to me that this would be easy enough, and then the Church could make a clear statement that the intersexed can have surgery and then marry. I hope that is the case.
Robert
pathia:
Wouldnât it be easy for someone to verify to the Church that they are intersexed by showing medical records? It seems to me that this would be easy enough, and then the Church could make a clear statement that the intersexed can have surgery and then marry. I hope that is the case.
Robert
A
aspawloski4th
Guest
Here is what is needed for issues of the sexual identity type, ie from crossdressing to intersexuality, to transexuality. The church has to make a difinative stand, on all individual issue, individually and categorally. yes to an extent hairs need to be split. With soo much on the churchâs plate, that isnt likely to happen uless it is helped along. Remember the church has lots of stuff going on from sexual scandals with priests to lack of attendance at Mass in places where Mass used to be well attended, to reunification with some of the Orthodox churches.
Some from the lay faithfull, who understand these type of subjects , who are level headed, and dont have some semi hidden agenda need to bring research and living examples to the magisterium. The type of people to do this while having a right to their opinions cant have an agenda aligned with any extreme , ie right wing or left wing, or women priesthood, etc. The research that is brought needs to be well detailed, with extensive examples and scientific proof. as many living examples of proff of research need to be brought. ie LynD you are a very good example of an adjusted functioning woman who went through sugery and sorry if I use the wrong term ⌠genderdysphoria. this needs to be brought to the magisterium by laity with clergy as advocates if at all possible. Also this issue with all the sudys and other evedense needs to be brought before the highest levels of the Church even the pope if at all possible. Inersexual and transsexual issues are not going to go away. Too many in the church have their own ideas of these issues based on small sound bites, and think they are ultilately right. Many well meaning Catholics who are intersexed, transsexual, and other realated, trype conditions are wondering if they are going to go to hell for what they are feeling, or just confused because they hear so much from different directions, or hear nothing difinative at all from where it should be coming from. there is so much ambiguity out there it could fill all the oceans a million times over. Untill this subject with all the evedence, reasearch and examples, are presented to whoem it matters. It will be the same ole same ole for some time to come. Like my life time.
Some from the lay faithfull, who understand these type of subjects , who are level headed, and dont have some semi hidden agenda need to bring research and living examples to the magisterium. The type of people to do this while having a right to their opinions cant have an agenda aligned with any extreme , ie right wing or left wing, or women priesthood, etc. The research that is brought needs to be well detailed, with extensive examples and scientific proof. as many living examples of proff of research need to be brought. ie LynD you are a very good example of an adjusted functioning woman who went through sugery and sorry if I use the wrong term ⌠genderdysphoria. this needs to be brought to the magisterium by laity with clergy as advocates if at all possible. Also this issue with all the sudys and other evedense needs to be brought before the highest levels of the Church even the pope if at all possible. Inersexual and transsexual issues are not going to go away. Too many in the church have their own ideas of these issues based on small sound bites, and think they are ultilately right. Many well meaning Catholics who are intersexed, transsexual, and other realated, trype conditions are wondering if they are going to go to hell for what they are feeling, or just confused because they hear so much from different directions, or hear nothing difinative at all from where it should be coming from. there is so much ambiguity out there it could fill all the oceans a million times over. Untill this subject with all the evedence, reasearch and examples, are presented to whoem it matters. It will be the same ole same ole for some time to come. Like my life time.
L
Lynn-D
Guest
Code:
It might be easy to verify if only chromasomes were the only determinent of sex. What about those with normal xx or xy that are genically tested and found to be chromasomally male but on some of their chromasomes there are female genetic markers? Dr Gooren and others who testified in this regard in an Australian Court presented this evidence and the court accepted their testimony and granted relief to the plaintiff who claimed she was post-operatively female although raised male. Not sure if the plaintiff was IS or TS though. The court opinion applied to both categories I have been told.
Also what and how would all of the research now ongoing be accepted that seems to lean strongly that even transsexuals who have no apparent chromasome or genetic markers opposite to their birth sex are found through positive research results that the brain is one sex and opposite the physical sex? That indication has already been determined and almost all the researchers that have followed it concur that it is not flawed but needs more than examination of the BSTe on the hypothalamus done on cadavers. Problem so far is that to do that same test on a live person would kill them. Don't want that do we?
In time the researchers promise that new testing methods are found every day and someday, and not far off, even an infant will be able to be tested to determine brain sex. That will be the day I await with glee. Transgenders do not hope for that because it would eliminate choice of sex and provide proof of inherant sex. Gender benders beware!So far the big, and I mean big, obsticle has been the transgenders and the glbt. They want the same rights as the IS/TS and are attempting to piggyback their fetishes onto the medical evaluation of actual TSâs and ISâs. In fact in England recently their Gender Recognition Bill (GerBil) was passed and guess what? Talk about adding confusion to the mix. Men who can satisfy the review boards and have doctors affidavits claiming they could not have surgery for one reason or another but claim to be transsexuals can have their legal sexual status changed from one sex to the other. So a male with a penis can be legally declared a female. Ugh!
This is a disgrace and the harm it does to those intersexed and/or transsexuals who have undergone srs is tantamount to being crimminal. Proves idiots can be found anywhere.
Hope I did not bore anyone.
Lynn-D
R
rlg94086
Guest
It might be easy to verify if only chromasomes were the only determinent of sex. What about those with normal xx or xy that are genically tested and found to be chromasomally male but on some of their chromasomes there are female genetic markers? Dr Gooren and others who testified in this regard in an Australian Court presented this evidence and the court accepted their testimony and granted relief to the plaintiff who claimed she was post-operatively female although raised male. Not sure if the plaintiff was IS or TS though. The court opinion applied to both categories I have been told.
OkayâŚnot as easy as I hoped, but if they do have the markers, that would hopefully be considered evidence as well. Is the incomplete formation of genitalia also a sign, or does this also happen in non-intersexed cases?
Also what and how would all of the research now ongoing be accepted that seems to lean strongly that even transsexuals who have no apparent chromasome or genetic markers opposite to their birth sex are found through positive research results that the brain is one sex and opposite the physical sex? That indication has already been determined and almost all the researchers that have followed it concur that it is not flawed but needs more than examination of the BSTe on the hypothalamus done on cadavers. Problem so far is that to do that same test on a live person would kill them. Donât want that do we?
**I donât think a postmortem determination would be too helpful to the individual involved.**
In time the researchers promise that new testing methods are found every day and someday, and not far off, even an infant will be able to be tested to determine brain sex. That will be the day I await with glee. Transgenders do not hope for that because it would eliminate choice of sex and provide proof of inherant sex. Gender benders beware!
**I agree. One of those âcareful what you wish forâ moments. **
In the meantime I think that anyone diagnosed as intersexed and/or transsexual by at least two competent doctors in the field, not therapists, be permitted to undergo sex reassignment surgery after living and working full time in the intended sex for a minimum of two years and then be granted legal status and recognized as the corrected sex. Without that and having to await further research proof is just punishment upon those who would be benefited today.
**This is why I think the best place to start within the Catholic Church is the NCBC. These are the best scientists who deal with the ethical and moral issues of science. **
So far the big, and I mean big, obsticle has been the transgenders and the glbt. They want the same rights as the IS/TS and are attempting to piggyback their fetishes onto the medical evaluation of actual TSâs and ISâs. In fact in England recently their Gender Recognition Bill (GerBil) **that just ainât right **was passed and guess what? Talk about adding confusion to the mix. Men who can satisfy the review boards and have doctors affidavits claiming they could not have surgery for one reason or another but claim to be transsexuals can have their legal sexual status changed from one sex to the other. So a male with a penis can be legally declared a female. Ugh!
This is a disgrace and the harm it does to those intersexed and/or transsexuals who have undergone srs is tantamount to being crimminal. Proves idiots can be found anywhere.
Hope I did not bore anyone. :yawn: âŚâŚHuh? What?
Thanks for the info.
Lynn-D
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Rachel:
Please contact your Local Bishop and your local Archbishop and see what they say. Make sure they understand the seriousness of the problem. If you canât get a hearing there, or if they through up their hands, go straight to the Vatican.
Meanwhile, talking to the people at Courage. Although they may not be able to tell you what to do or give you any real advice, they will be able to help you deal with something theyâve dealt with themselves, and they may have access to a theologian or two who might have some idea how the Churchâs Teaching applies to your case.
I understand that a lot of people at your local parish donât understand you, but there are a lot of people here who want to keep you in the Church and feel that, if you can find some way to get through this, you will be a real asset to the Church.
Sp, please call and write you Bishop and your Archbishop. And, if you have to, call and write the Vatican.
We really want you in the Church, not out of it.
May the Lord give you peace.
In Christ, Michael
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