IRA say 'Armed campaign is over'

[Ani_Ibi]

STIOFÁN:

Yes it’s true they’re turning on each-other, in the past 2 or 3 weeks two loyalists have been shot dead by their own, one was only 18.

Bizarre.
STIOFÁN:

the emphasis was always on the IRA to give up it’s arms, while so-called loyalists hold firmly on to theirs.

I hear ya.
STIOFÁN:

Also it’s an abuse of the word loyal, they claim to be loyal to Queen and Crown, but they definately aren’t.

I don’t understand this. Can you explain what you mean?

 

[Pondero]

Ani wrote:

“Stop! I posted that history because it was clear that some people had no knowledge of that history. Pondero, for example. Franze also asked for links so that he could learn about the history of the security forces. How can you learn about the security forces if you do not learn about what they did?”

I have made very few comments about Irish history and so I am at a loss as to how you know I have no knowledge of it. I am not Irish, well I am a quarter Irish, and the rest of me is English and I was born and brought up in Northern England…
I do know this that the 6 Northern counties voted to remain with GB and the rest did not. I also know that the Catholics in NI were badly treated by the Protestants. They were discriminated against in jobs, education, and in living areas. None of this justifies the actions of the IRA or the Protestant militant groups.

I remember that it all flared up again in 1955 when the IRA blew up British Army barracks in Wales. Then of course later on what really made the pot boil over was the attack in Ulster by British paratroopers. Can’t remember the exact date of that, perhaps it was 1973, but I am not sure. All hell broke loose after that.

It is a good thing that peace is being restored at least on the initiative of the IRA (Some Americans are partly to blame for supporting the IRA up to this date financially- they should have stayed out of it)

Now if only Ian Paisley will produce an olive branch. Or is it all wishful thinking that that will happen on my part.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

I don’t understand this. Can you explain what you mean?

The history of modern Ireland illustrates this. When it became apparent that the British government was actually going to live up to its committment to grant home rule to Ireland, the “Loyalist Volunteers” were formed – and they imported 100,000 rifles.

The “Irish Volunteers” were formed as a counter – but were not nearly so well armed.

In 1913, it looked like the “Loyalist Volunteers” were willing to go to war with Britian to stay British (yes, I know it sounds strange, but it’s true.) The British government ordered Sir John French to disarm the volunteers. He passed the order to Lord Gough. Lord Gough immediately saw this would work to the disadvantage of the Loyalists (who had almost all the arms, but not nearly the numbers.)

Lord Gough sent in his resignation, along with the resignations of most of his key subordinates. Seeing that they could not depend on the Army in Ireland in the event of civil war, the British government simply ignored the whole thing – both the orders and the resignations (which, of course, amounted to mutiny.)

This bizzare approach has ruled Northern Ireland ever since – recall that Pasley was talking about “Unilateral Declaration of Independence” in order to STAY a part of Britain?

 

[STIOFAN]

Franze:

Do you have some link about what security forces made, I would like to read about it, thanks

Try these Franze, relativesforjustice.com/shoottokill/shoottokill.htm some were IRA some were innocent.
And to whom it may concern, don’t give me a hard time about these lists, Franze did ask for security force killings.

Anyway Franze you will see from the list that the IRA didn’t kill 3,300 it’s terrible that one has to bear arms against another, but thats the reality of it all.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

condan:

The IRA may disarm but the problem remains: Britain occupies a foreign country…The problem still remains.

Hi condan. I’m going to ask a hard question. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want.

Is the problem that British troops are in Northern Ireland? If so, that seems to be easily remedied by removing the troops.

Or is the problem that the plantation continues? If this is the case, then what solution do want? What solution do you think is realitistic? What solution will you settle for and do you your best in order to bring about an optimistic future? What solution will you absolutely not brook?

For example, do you think it is reasonable to ask that the descendants of the plantation folks be relocated? If so, where? If you think that there is too much water under the bridge, then how do you propose getting along?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

Ani wrote:

“Stop! I posted that history because it was clear that some people had no knowledge of that history. Pondero, for example. Franze also asked for links so that he could learn about the history of the security forces. How can you learn about the security forces if you do not learn about what they did?”

I have made very few comments about Irish history and so I am at a loss as to how you know I have no knowledge of it. I am not Irish, well I am a quarter Irish, and the rest of me is English and I was born and brought up in Northern England…
I do know this that the 6 Northern counties voted to remain with GB and the rest did not. I also know that the Catholics in NI were badly treated by the Protestants. They were discriminated against in jobs, education, and in living areas. None of this justifies the actions of the IRA or the Protestant militant groups.

I remember that it all flared up again in 1955 when the IRA blew up British Army barracks in Wales. Then of course later on what really made the pot boil over was the attack in Ulster by British paratroopers. Can’t remember the exact date of that, perhaps it was 1973, but I am not sure. All hell broke loose after that.

It is a good thing that peace is being restored at least on the initiative of the IRA (Some Americans are partly to blame for supporting the IRA up to this date financially- they should have stayed out of it)

Now if only Ian Paisley will produce an olive branch. Or is it all wishful thinking that that will happen on my part.

No disrespect meant, but your account of events above shows a lack of knowledge of Irish history.

The IRA activities in the mid-50s were the last gasp of the Old IRA. The old IRA declared itself to be a political party (now known as the “Sticky Worker’s Party”), and disposed of their arms.

The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association (NICRA) was inspired by the Civil Rights movement in the United States, and marched to protest discrimination against Catholics. The “official” start of the Troubles came in '69 with an ambush of civil rights marchers at Burntollet Bridge by Royal Ulster Constabulary and Loyalists paramilitaries.

This was followed by attacks on the Catholid ghettos by Loyalist paramilitaries. It was at this time people began writing “IRA=I Ran Away.” Young men sought out and joined the IRA to form a protection force for Catholic neighborhoods. When the IRA failed to provide arms (they had none) or leadership, they broke away to form Provisional IRA (PIRA.)

The British Army was sent to restore order, and soon turned on the Catholic ghettos – barriers had been set up at the entrances of the ghettos to prevent Loyalists gangs from entering. The Army bulldozed these barriers and then failed to provide protection.

The Army begain actively working with Loyalists – including sharing secret information with them, and targeting Catholic activists for murder.

 

[STIOFAN]

Ani Ibi:

I don’t understand this. Can you explain what you mean?

Protestants that claim to be loyal to Queen Elizabeth call themselves loyalists.
Being loyal to Queen and Crown in my opinion was just a conveinent cover, they were loyalists in name only.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Franze:

Someday, Ann Ibi, I will speak about ETA, the problem is the language, all the good links are in spanish and this produces boring in forum´s people.

This is not a problem, Franze. Do you remember the interregnum? Everybody in Catholic Answers was looking for news on the Cardinals and on the election process. The best news was on RAI and ANSI, both of which are Italian language. Some news we got from France, some from Germany. We just posted what we found in the original language. Then we ran it through Babel Fish for a translation. The Babel Fish translation is really bizarre so we had to re-write it to make sense. Then we posted the re-written translation. We can do it that way.

OK everyone else. Would you be interested in having a thread about the Basque ETA? Franze can give us valuable insights on the Spanish experience. Just as Stiofan, condan and sanpablo have given us valuable insights from Ireland. I am interested in these Wild Geese too.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ani Ibi:

Hi condan. I’m going to ask a hard question. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want.

Is the problem that British troops are in Northern Ireland? If so, that seems to be easily remedied by removing the troops.

Or is the problem that the plantation continues? If this is the case, then what solution do want? What solution do you think is realitistic? What solution will you settle for and do you your best in order to bring about an optimistic future? What solution will you absolutely not brook?

For example, do you think it is reasonable to ask that the descendants of the plantation folks be relocated? If so, where? If you think that there is too much water under the bridge, then how do you propose getting along?

The long pole in the tent is the “Loyalist Guarentee.” This is the often-repeated statement by Britain that “Northern Ireland will remain associated with Great Britain as long as the majority of the people of Northern Ireland want it to be.”

While this SOUNDS democratic, it served as notice to the Loyalists that they could have their way if they kept the Catholic population down. That’s why, for example, Northern Ireland had such bizzare voting laws that gave extra votes to people with property. It also served to reward both economic and legal discrimination – the more Catholics you drive out, the better.

Now, however, the Catholics are pulling ahead in population – when today’s toddlers can vote, the Catholics will be in the majority. What happens then?

The Republic of Ireland has removed the claim to all of Ireland from its constituition. The time has come for Britain to revise the Loyalist Guarentee – “Great Britain has no obligation to maintain the partition of Ireland against the wishes of the majority of the people of Ireland.”

This DOESN’T mean automatic absorbtion of the Six Counties by the Republic. It means there is a window of opportunity. If the Loyalists are wise, they will use it to create a society so fair that their fellow citizens will come ot love, not hate their country, and when they become the minority they can live in peace and prosperity.

 

[Pondero]

I was wrong to say that the many of the Irish ( I mean in Eire) were Anglo Saxon, as the majority are Celts with a sprinkling of Anglo Saxon types present also.

Sorry about that . But that does not mean to say I know nothing about Irish history, it means that I was wrong about the demographics, Ani.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

In 1913, it looked like the “Loyalist Volunteers” were willing to go to war with Britian to stay British (yes, I know it sounds strange, but it’s true.)

Wierder than Monty Python.
vern humphrey:

recall that Pasley was talking about “Unilateral Declaration of Independence” in order to STAY a part of Britain?

I find I can never hear what Paisely is saying. I think it is because of all the banging, booing, and catterwalling that breaks out at my house when he comes on the tv. D-oh!

 

[Pondero]

Vern you have added more facts to your account of Irish history, but what makes you an authority. If you can prove my facts to be wrong then you will have a point. I remember quite clearly what happened in 1955 and there had been a lull in IRA activities up until that time, that is what I am speaking of - the blowing up of a British army barracks.

History is a collection of facts but subject to one’s interpretation. You say nothing about my views of recent events, the support of some Americans of the IRA or the discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland by Protestants. I clearly remember hearing Bishop Heenan of Leeds speak out on the BBC radio about such discrimination when he was supposed to be giving a talk on religion. The governor of Northern Ireland demanded that he apologize. The good bishop did not apologize. That is also part of Irish history.

 

[STIOFAN]

vern humphrey:

In fact, the Loyalist paramilitaries and the security forces together killed more “non-combatants” (“the wee man” to use the jargon) than the IRA. And the security forces often worked hand-in-glove with the Loyalist paramilitaries, passing classified information and designating people to be killed with “deniability.”

Yes they did vern, the british army passed on information to the loyalist killing machines, and then conveniently didn’t set up road blocks in that area until the dirty deed was done.

And then those that knew it was happening returned to investigate the murder, including the corrupt police force, the RUC.

The RUC investigated it with all their corrupt enthusiasm, and that was practically nil.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

Now if only Ian Paisley will produce an olive branch. Or is it all wishful thinking that that will happen on my part.

It is highly unlikely. If it does happen, then it is highly suspect. If it ends up not being suspect, then we will have witnessed a modern-day miracle.

 

[condan]

Ani Ibi:

Hi condan. I’m going to ask a hard question. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want.

Is the problem that British troops are in Northern Ireland? If so, that seems to be easily remedied by removing the troops.

Or is the problem that the plantation continues? If this is the case, then what solution do want? What solution do you think is realitistic? What solution will you settle for and do you your best in order to bring about an optimistic future? What solution will you absolutely not brook?

For example, do you think it is reasonable to ask that the descendants of the plantation folks be relocated? If so, where? If you think that there is too much water under the bridge, then how do you propose getting along?

Reunification into a United Ireland. Scots-Irish of course need not relocate, (and, quite frankly, its silly to ask) just live as Irish (Like Wolfe Tone did), sharing power, opportunities and resources. Outlaw (rather than encourage) discrimination based on religion. And, finally if its not too much to ask of the Protestants, let Catholic children walk to school without feces being thrown at them.

 

[Pondero]

Ani: I agree with you it is most unlikely, and it may also be unlikely that the IRA will really disarm. Neither side have a good record at promise keeping.

We can only pray for the best to happen. Now, I have finally woke up due to being accused of not knowing anything about Irish history, my posts will be more pointed. This is OK as long as this discussion does not degenerate into a word slanging match such as I have in the distant past being involved with on other boards. ( of fond memory)

 

[vern_humphrey]

Pondero:

Vern you have added more facts to your account of Irish history, but what makes you an authority. If you can prove my facts to be wrong then you will have a point. I remember quite clearly what happened in 1955 and there had been a lull in IRA activities up until that time, that is what I am speaking of - the blowing up of a British army barracks.

I’m not sure what your facts are – what fills the gap from the mid-50s to 1973?

Pondero:

History is a collection of facts but subject to one’s interpretation. You say nothing about my views of recent events, the support of some Americans of the IRA or the discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland by Protestants.

While I haven’t discussed the support of the IRA by some Americans, if you look back, you will see I have discussed things like Brookeism, the voting system, the collaboration between the RUC and the Loyalist paramilitaries, and finally the collaboration between the British Army and the Loyalist paramilitaries.

Now I could go into details about things like Internment and the Twelve Methods if you like. I could give you the name of the first member of the RUC killed in the troubles (by a Loyalist Paramilitary.) Is that what you want?

Pondero:

I clearly remember hearing Bishop Heenan of Leeds speak out on the BBC radio about such discrimination when he was supposed to be giving a talk on religion. The governor of Northern Ireland demanded that he apologize. The good bishop did not apologize. That is also part of Irish history.

We could also talk about the Stalker Affair, where a senior British police official investigating murder by the authorities had his career ruined.

But the point is, the current situation is due to both what happened hundreds of years ago, and to what happened only recently. And all of that militates against continuing the status quo in Ireland.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Pondero:

I was wrong to say that the many of the Irish ( I mean in Eire) were Anglo Saxon, as the majority are Celts with a sprinkling of Anglo Saxon types present also.

Sorry about that . But that does not mean to say I know nothing about Irish history, it means that I was wrong about the demographics, Ani.

Hi Pondero. This is what you originally said.

“They [the Irish] are not a distinct people from the English as there are many Anglo Saxons in Eire, not just Celts.”
*The presence of the English in Ireland does not prove that the Irish are not Irish. That was tried with the Plantation. The Plantation did not make the Irish into non-Irish. *
Here are some links on the Plantation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/voices/voices_ulster.shtml
The latter link is a BBC link and so should be read with both shoes on. Nonetheless they admit to this telling bit of info:
“During the period of mid 16th century to mid 17th century Ulster is unique in being the only place to be colonized on a major scale within Europe.”
http://www.rte.ie/culture/millennia/history/1000.html
http://www.rte.ie/culture/millennia/history/1001.html
*My comment about history is about…well click here or here. Or better still, click here. Hopefully this settles the matter of the Irish being a people distinct from the English. Apology accepted. *

 

[Franze]

STIOFÁN:

Try these Franze, relativesforjustice.com/shoottokill/shoottokill.htm some were IRA some were innocent.
And to whom it may concern, don’t give me a hard time about these lists, Franze did ask for security force killings.

Anyway Franze you will see from the list that the IRA didn’t kill 3,300 it’s terrible that one has to bear arms against another, but thats the reality of it all.

I am very impressive to see this, I have to think about it. Thank very much for the link.

 

[condan]

Hi Pondero. This is what you originally said.

“They [the Irish] are not a distinct people from the English as there are many Anglo Saxons in Eire, not just Celts.”

*The presence of the English in Ireland does not prove that the Irish are not Irish. That was tried with the Plantation. The Plantation did not make the Irish into non-Irish. *

Here are some links on the Plantation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/voices/voices_ulster.shtml

The latter link is a BBC link and so should be read with both shoes on. Nonetheless they admit to this telling bit of info:

“During the period of mid 16th century to mid 17th century Ulster is unique in being the only place to be colonized on a major scale within Europe.”

http://www.rte.ie/culture/millennia/history/1000.html

http://www.rte.ie/culture/millennia/history/1001.html

My comment about history is about…well click here or here. Or better still, click here. Hopefully this settles the matter of the Irish being a people distinct from the English. Apology accepted.

Thanks for the links!