Is a ring important when a man proposes marriage?

[joandarc2008]

I understand what you are saying about “marking a woman as his” and the getting down on the knee; however, as my fiance and I have been talking with our deacon much about in pre-CANA it says many times in the Bible that the man is the head of his household. I had a very hard time swallowing this for a very longtime. However, as I started to go through the process I started to understand that it was not “head of household” as in servitude it was “head of household” as in responsibility to our spiritual growth towards our Father. We attend mass together, we pray together, we bless each other, we read together, we even discuss things I have read on here together. To me the whole knee thing was a sign of humility in asking me for permission to bear that awesome resposibility in my life and with my soul. God bless.

 

[whatevergirl]

You know, it’s interesting you bring that up, joan. My dh wasn’t always the spiritual head of household. He was not the one who initiated prayer or rallied everyone for mass…that was me for a long time. I suspect this had to do with our separation, and after we ‘merged’ back together, he was a bit standoffish in his relationship to God. He commented that why did he have to go through so much pain with me, and why was this necessary for us to grow? About 3 or 4 years ago, he had an epiphany…and he now very much, is the head of household.

Not to get off on a tangent about that, but it’s important to not have a power struggle with our mates. I think that we both handle finances, etc…but I have grown over the years to respect his ‘final’ decisions on some things, and not argue over it. This comes especially when raising children…wow, we used to battle a lot about disciplining them. Now, I default to him, and the kids have gotten used to mom not folding and giving in…dad is the final authority, as long as he’s being reasonable. Sometimes, my husband tells them no too much, I think.

Back to the original thread topic…I think bending down on one knee with a ring…doesn’t have to be an expensive ring…is a great tradition for a man to do. Just my two thoughts. I think it’s quite chivalrous.

 

[whatevergirl]

NO!!!

My fiance (we’re getting married Sat, 9-20, hurray!) didn’t have the ring when he proposed to me. It was over a year before we went to visit his family and pick up the heirloom rings that we would have for our engagement and wedding. But all the time I didn’t have the ring yet, I still felt “engaged” and I still honored that commitment.
**
If the couple doesn’t have the commitment to each other in their hearts, the fanciest/most expensive engagement ring in the world won’t change that. If they are committed to each other, then the ring is just the outer sign for the world to see what the couple knows to be true.**

Just my opinion…

So agree with what you say here in bold…I think that is so true.

 

[joandarc2008]

You know it is interesting that you bring up the issue with children. One major life lesson my df got from his mother was when she would back his father even when his father seemed blatantly wrong. Granted I think SHE was a “little” extreme in this but she always told him that “You will grow up and get a wife of your own and I will be here the rest of my life by myself with your father. It is important that I choose my battles carefully.” One thing that my df and I have had to learn is that we disagree on things with my stepdaughter but we don’t do it IN FRONT of her. We excuse ourselves and talk about it or bring it up later. And if one of us finds that we are wrong it is for the one that is wrong to back down from that position or apologize if it involved an argument - which sometimes it does - she is preteen. One thing that we are trying to teach her is that no one can be perfect but it is almost always a good thing to do self-evaluation, admit when you were are wrong, and make amends. Age does not make you 100% right 100% of the time. God bless.

 

[chevalier]

I understand what you are saying about “marking a woman as his” and the getting down on the knee; however, as my fiance and I have been talking with our deacon much about in pre-CANA it says many times in the Bible that the man is the head of his household. I had a very hard time swallowing this for a very longtime. However, as I started to go through the process I started to understand that it was not “head of household” as in servitude it was “head of household” as in responsibility to our spiritual growth towards our Father. We attend mass together, we pray together, we bless each other, we read together, we even discuss things I have read on here together. To me the whole knee thing was a sign of humility in asking me for permission to bear that awesome resposibility in my life and with my soul. God bless.

I get the point, but I’m a bit concerned with the custom of asking the woman to marry the man, rather than if she will.

On the other hand, the decision to marry is a decision to build a new life, rather than a decision whether the other is a prince or princess charming. It is not a declaratory choice. Since it’s not a question of fact, asking someone to make a specific decision is not entirely unreasonable. I can imagine a lot of situations adding to this. I think I can see myself convincing someone to marry me rather than merely telling her to make a good call. So, yeah, why not, although some reservations still stand. Can’t get over the knee thing really. It alerts me of possibly
wrong symbolics.

You know it is interesting that you bring up the issue with children. One major life lesson my df got from his mother was when she would back his father even when his father seemed blatantly wrong.

That’s too extreme. I understanding standing by those who are wrong, but not by their decision. I’ll support my family and be with them even if they are in the wrong, but I’ll be shot before I confirm a wrong judgement. Perhaps I should be single.

 

[Litcrit]

carrying women into a new home, or into a hotel room during a honeymoon?

Any marriage/engagement history buffs?

The spirits of a family’s ancestors were believed to dwell in the threshold. The bride, coming into the home, was NOT to step on them

 

[joandarc2008]

I get the point, but I’m a bit concerned with the custom of asking the woman to marry the man, rather than if she will.

On the other hand, the decision to marry is a decision to build a new life, rather than a decision whether the other is a prince or princess charming. It is not a declaratory choice. Since it’s not a question of fact, asking someone to make a specific decision is not entirely unreasonable. I can imagine a lot of situations adding to this. I think I can see myself convincing someone to marry me rather than merely telling her to make a good call. So, yeah, why not, although some reservations still stand. Can’t get over the knee thing really. It alerts me of possibly
wrong symbolics.

That’s too extreme. I understanding standing by those who are wrong, but not by their decision. I’ll support my family and be with them even if they are in the wrong, but I’ll be shot before I confirm a wrong judgement. Perhaps I should be single.

I do agree that my MIL to be has taken it to the extreme in practice. However I would say that if you only took it to the point of setting a public example of togetherness especially in front of children (no good cop/bad cop) then that support will be carried later on in life. However, if one is to say have a child or a stepchild that sees a division and wants to be even more divisive than things can be very ugly even after that child moves out. Especially if that weakness was shown to the child to begin with.

 

[whatevergirl]

The spirits of a family’s ancestors were believed to dwell in the threshold. The bride, coming into the home, was NOT to step on them

ha!

 

[whatevergirl]

I get the point, but I’m a bit concerned with the custom of asking the woman to marry the man, rather than if she will.

On the other hand, the decision to marry is a decision to build a new life, rather than a decision whether the other is a prince or princess charming. It is not a declaratory choice. Since it’s not a question of fact, asking someone to make a specific decision is not entirely unreasonable. I can imagine a lot of situations adding to this. I think I can see myself convincing someone to marry me rather than merely telling her to make a good call. So, yeah, why not, although some reservations still stand. Can’t get over the knee thing really. It alerts me of possibly
wrong symbolics.

That’s too extreme. I understanding standing by those who are wrong, but not by their decision. I’ll support my family and be with them even if they are in the wrong, but I’ll be shot before I confirm a wrong judgement. Perhaps I should be single.

You could get down on both knees, if that works better. Seriously, it doesn’t have to be done kneeling, but it’s romantic and a chivalrous gesture to me…but maybe you’ll find a woman who would find it horrible, and then you’ll know you’ve found the perfect one.

hee hee

 

[chevalier]

I do agree that my MIL to be has taken it to the extreme in practice. However I would say that if you only took it to the point of setting a public example of togetherness especially in front of children (no good cop/bad cop) then that support will be carried later on in life. However, if one is to say have a child or a stepchild that sees a division and wants to be even more divisive than things can be very ugly even after that child moves out. Especially if that weakness was shown to the child to begin with.

It’s better to deal with weakness than to hide it. If one parent decides the child did it and the other knows he didn’t, but stands by the verdict, then where is the real weakness? Where is the weakness if the one looses control of his behaviour and the other encourages him instead of mitigating? They need to get each other into heaven, not to make each other look good. Granted, talks are best had outside the presence of children, but if one parent wrongs the child, the other can’t sit about. Actively supporting the bad thing (e.g. defending a false statement or unjust punishment, lying) is always another bad thing to add to the first one.

You could get down on both knees, if that works better. Seriously, it doesn’t have to be done kneeling, but it’s romantic and a chivalrous gesture to me…but maybe you’ll find a woman who would find it horrible, and then you’ll know you’ve found the perfect one.

hee hee

It’s not just the kneeling position. Heh, if someone walks in front of me when I’m tying my shoes, I don’t frantically spring up to avoid any appearance of submission. The problem is begging for it while she wants it as much as you do, the forceful dramatic plea that clouds her decision and makes her look bad if she refuses… That’s quite a lot of misrepresentation of what it really is about.

 

[chevalier]

Well, another thought is that many women think the man should petition the woman for a relationship or marriage. I don’t share that view. I see why men would make a plea out of it - often she has better chances of finding someone else than they do and they are actively interested while she only learns about their interest and wonders whether they are worthy of reciprocation - but it’s wrong on the premises. The premises are that they are both equal, both consenting, both making sacrifices. There is also typically the fact, in our modern reality, that she knows it equally as much as he does, if not sometimes more. For this reason, as “cute” and chivalrous as it may be, it’s misguided. Granting a petition, doing a favour, meeting a request, all these are not good motivations for entering into marriage. And if they are not good, why induce the woman to feel them or why pretend she does? It’s like asking the father’s permission: chivalrous, time-honoured, beautiful… wrong on premises.

As a side note, I will have a mighty good laugh recalling this conversation if I actually do it this way when my time comes.

 

[whatevergirl]

It’s not just the kneeling position. Heh, if someone walks in front of me when I’m tying my shoes, I don’t frantically spring up to avoid any appearance of submission. The problem is begging for it while she wants it as much as you do, the forceful dramatic plea that clouds her decision and makes her look bad if she refuses… That’s quite a lot of misrepresentation of what it really is about.

aaahhhh! I hadn’t thought of that…that is a serious possibility. I have always thought that a ring was somehow also intentioned to win over a woman’s heart…I know friends of mine who sadly fell in love with the ring and the wedding, instead of the man. Not too shabby of a point chevalier.

 

[whatevergirl]

Well, another thought is that many women think the man should petition the woman for a relationship or marriage. I don’t share that view. I see why men would make a plea out of it - often she has better chances of finding someone else than they do and they are actively interested while she only learns about their interest and wonders whether they are worthy of reciprocation - but it’s wrong on the premises. The premises are that they are both equal, both consenting, both making sacrifices. There is also typically the fact, in our modern reality, that she knows it equally as much as he does, if not sometimes more. For this reason, as “cute” and chivalrous as it may be, it’s misguided. Granting a petition, doing a favour, meeting a request, all these are not good motivations for entering into marriage. And if they are not good, why induce the woman to feel them or why pretend she does? It’s like asking the father’s permission: chivalrous, time-honoured, beautiful… wrong on premises.

As a side note, I will have a mighty good laugh recalling this conversation if I actually do it this way when my time comes.

lol! that would be funny. You must report right back to this forum with the details. lol

Maybe take a soft mat, just in case your knees hurt you or something that day.

I’m not big on asking the dad’s permission. My dad died when I was little…so, my dh asked my BIL, whom I did not respect…I do now, but back then, I did not…so I could care less if he accepted who I was going to marry.

Just a correction…I never said ‘cute,’ I said romantic and chivalrous.

 

[chevalier]

aaahhhh! I hadn’t thought of that…that is a serious possibility. I have always thought that a ring was somehow also intentioned to win over a woman’s heart…I know friends of mine who sadly fell in love with the ring and the wedding, instead of the man. Not too shabby of a point chevalier.

The ring was meant to make DeBeers rich. After that, to make the man meet the demand of his perceived station, the demands of his chosen target of affections… and to secure his goal, yup. Carefully choosing gifts is a way to win someone’s heart. Not sparing money might be. But converting cash into expectations does not bide well. It is good to pick something nice and not be stingy with one’s money while at it. It’s not good to appeal to a love of gold or diamonds. It’d be like winning a man over by giving him alcohol or tobacco so that he’d propose. It’s good in moderation, but it’s hardly what you’d like to be his primary focus in life or in you.

lol! that would be funny. You must report right back to this forum with the details. lol

…And then I proved to her I was the right choice. She tried to resist, but the sheer force of my arguments swept her off her feet. “Yes, chev,” she said, “whatever you want.”…" Just give me a break."

I’m not big on asking the dad’s permission. My dad died when I was little…so, my dh asked my BIL, whom I did not respect…I do now, but back then, I did not…so I could care less if he accepted who I was going to marry.

Strictly speaking, the father’s permission could be a filter for candidates she would otherwise accept, without making her accept the guys her dad likes. But we all know the reality is more like a vicarious choice by the father while it’s she who’s supposed to be consenting. Maybe if she’s 16 or 18, but still, if she needs permission, she’s not exactly ready to marry.

Just a correction…I never said ‘cute,’ I said romantic and chivalrous.

You didn’t say that. I was speaking more in general. I’m sure “cute” is among the typical impressions.

 

[whatevergirl]

The ring was meant to make DeBeers rich. After that, to make the man meet the demand of his perceived station, the demands of his chosen target of affections… and to secure his goal, yup. Carefully choosing gifts is a way to win someone’s heart. Not sparing money might be. But converting cash into expectations does not bide well. It is good to pick something nice and not be stingy with one’s money while at it. It’s not good to appeal to a love of gold or diamonds. It’d be like winning a man over by giving him alcohol or tobacco so that he’d propose. It’s good in moderation, but it’s hardly what you’d like to be his primary focus in life or in you.

When I finally got a clue about the diamond industry–I couldn’t believe I supported this for so long. I could blame it all on my dh. But, DeBeers while taking up about 67% of the world’s diamonds as a wholesaler…there are conflict free jewelers out there…but, that’s why you could buy her moissanite, like I now wear which is sooo sparkly and pretty…and you will not have to worry about the conflicts. I love jewelry, chev…so, if you ever need some pointers…I’ll be more than happy to view samples of rings to help you out. Sorry, rings are just so…I dunno…pretty. But, you might luck out and meet a girl who a) loathes rings and b) loathes kneelers. Then you would have to marry her just on these two premises alone. lol

…And then I proved to her I was the right choice. She tried to resist, but the sheer force of my arguments swept her off her feet. “Yes, chev,” she said, “whatever you want.”…" Just give me a break."

Neva know. But, I’m still hopeful that you will remember this thread…and think to yourself…ah, to be chivalrous…if but once in my life. I’m just saying…it would make for a great thread.

Strictly speaking, the father’s permission could be a filter for candidates she would otherwise accept, without making her accept the guys her dad likes. But we all know the reality is more like a vicarious choice by the father while it’s she who’s supposed to be consenting. Maybe if she’s 16 or 18, but still, if she needs permission, she’s not exactly ready to marry.

You didn’t say that. I was speaking more in general. I’m sure “cute” is among the typical impressions.

okay.

 

[Agabus]

I didn’t have a ring when we first decided to get married — I just kind of blurted out something like “We have to get married” while we were together one night. I bought a ring fairly quickly after that, but kind of blew the romantic moment. Fortunately, it was only a month later before I gave her a wedding band. No use in waiting around.

 

[chevalier]

When I finally got a clue about the diamond industry–I couldn’t believe I supported this for so long. I could blame it all on my dh. But, DeBeers while taking up about 67% of the world’s diamonds as a wholesaler…there are conflict free jewelers out there…but, that’s why you could buy her moissanite, like I now wear which is sooo sparkly and pretty…and you will not have to worry about the conflicts. I love jewelry, chev…so, if you ever need some pointers…I’ll be more than happy to view samples of rings to help you out. Sorry, rings are just so…I dunno…pretty. But, you might luck out and meet a girl who a) loathes rings and b) loathes kneelers. Then you would have to marry her just on these two premises alone. lol

Both traditions are so thoroughly misguided, lol… Well, but a ring should be there, no doubt, and one shouldn’t skimp for a number of very good reasons among which DeBeers doesn’t count. Not sure how I’ll behave when it comes to giving it, really, since I can’t know fore sure until it happens, but what I’m nearly sure of is that I won’t be asking permission. Of course, one might ask permission to respect tradition, while knowing one will get it, but why create the impression that the permission or lack of it will be binding, if it will not be? On some level it does even somewhat instinctly feel right to ask the father’s permission, but the fact stands that the consent is not his to give but the bride’s. Once again, in the light of historical circumstances, it wasn’t a bad idea. The women were not able to work and were largely restricted in the administration of their property, they depended on the husbands. At the same time fathers were tough and experienced. Joining the two families was more significant than it is now, as well. There were such things as property or title inheritance. In such circumstances, the custom of paternal permission does not strike me as a bad idea. But times have changed.

Neva know. But, I’m still hopeful that you will remember this thread…and think to yourself…ah, to be chivalrous…if but once in my life. I’m just saying…it would make for a great thread.

Look at my nick… I got it for a reason. I’m incorrigible when it comes to proper old customs no matter how obsolete people think them. But there’s a difference between squiring and kneeling. Please note that many men have lost the distinction between reverence and worship when it comes to their ladies - starting with notorious examples from literature, but there are also plenty in real life. I’ve read too much history and literature not to know that at some point chivalry and courtly love crossed the line (Schiller’s The Glove isn’t the most extreme example). With all my attachment to those traditions, the doubts I told you about prevail. No doubt, I might actually go down on a knee on the spur of the moment just as I have done other less than reasonable things in my life, but from a more level-headed point of view it gives a thousand wrong impressions. At some point I’m beginning to wonder if it’s not secular mediaeval tradition conflicting with what Catholic marriage is about (also read about Islamic influence). Historically, such conflicts existed at the time, with men going to duels over insults, others believing that God will influence the outcome of a judicial fight to have the innocent party win in combat, courtly love being believed to supersede marital ties on occasion. A courtly love court, sort of court of chivarly, once decided a woman owed to a knight to spend a night with him regardless of his marriage to another; we all know that Lancelot and Guinevere didn’t exactly play by the book, we have had more than enough examples of men offering practically religious service to women - “goddess” is a popular form of address in romantic poetry.

Of course, you could dig up the real code of chivalry, strip it of the musings of the troubadours, recall and insist on the part about obeying the laws of the Church. In that light, a warrior’s gentleness towards women would show as the correct pattern, denouncing as excessive the ideas of young men with too much time on their hands and too little company (frankly, much of it was trying to win a woman over by submissive behaviour, like children competing for attention). Curiously, within this context, kneeling on one knee while proposing wouldn’t be out of order, but remember those were feudal times. Knights were petty feudal lords, each feudal domain was a tiny little statelet, hierarchy often depended on who submitted to whom rather than institutional factors. They would by default kneel to their overlords and those overlord’s immediate female relatives (simply put, smaller scale queens), they would often marry an overlord’s daughter - not necessarily an heiress, but still a woman of a higher station. Between men, they wouldn’t probably go farther than accepting each other’s decision-making or conceding precedence to an equal, but with a woman it was different (the actual implications of kneeling to an equal knight would basically entail allegiance). I don’t think kneeling to a woman, in the mind of a more level-headed knight, was much more than kissing a woman’s hand is to a man of our times.

Obviously, a properly educated woman does not think she’s being an object of religious affections, but she realises it’s an extreme measure of respect which does not include cult.

 

[whatevergirl]

good morning, chev.
yes, i agree with most of your points. Frankly, when it comes time for my son to marry–likewise, I’d like have a sit down with the future woman, and make sure she understands marriage, and the commitment they’re making. I don’t think that women should be on pedstals, and the men are treated like they need to beg for women, either. Like they are to be prizes or something. I agree that with women now able to educate themselves, and make very good livings, the need to ask permission to marry is not necessary. But, instead of permission, just a sit down to express intentions, and have a nice talk about the overall magnitude of marriage, you know? I expect my future DIL and SIL to do this with my husband and me. Any woman or man who don’t feel the need to get to know us, won’t have my vote, for whatever it will mean to my kids at that time. We are a very close family–share everything–and I can’t imagine my kids marrying people who my dh and I feel are not such great choices. It will ultimately be their choice, hopefully, we’ve raised them right, and they will be able to make wise choices, using God’s guidance.

You’ll still have to remember us here, wherever you are when your fateful day comes to propose marriage and let us in on the details. We have high expectations of you,now. lol!

Have a blessed day.

 

[chevalier]

Good morning. Always a pleasure to be a spoilsport.

I don’t think that women should be on pedstals (…) Like they are to be prizes or something. /quote]

I think our roles in this conversation will soon reverse. I think I’d better log out while there’s still time. Just enough to say that the art of living up has largely been lost in the younger generations.

Have a blessed day.

And you as well.

Edit: Don’t know why I can’t fix the quote.

 

[Tinajo]

My husband proposed on one knee both times he asked me (the first time I told him I wasn’t ready yet and he was very good about it!) and I never really thought of it as anything supplicatory. Probably because, as others have mentioned, we’d been talking about the possibility for a while and so it very much felt like a joint decision - the proposal and acceptance is just the point at which you make the decision official. I can see your point about putting pressure on the woman if done in public, but this was in private with just the two of us for exactly that reason (I’m reliably informed )

Ring-wise I ended up with a beautiful engagement ring which we chose together, after we got engaged, because my mum pointed out to me that the man buying the ring for you is taking a huge risk in terms of your taste (some men just don’t have a knack for jewellery no matter how well they understand you otherwise), worrying about whether you’ll like it even if he knows you’ll say yes (and it’s even more stressful if he doesn’t know!), and choosing one together is a really lovely way to start off a lifelong commitment - making a joint financial decision, if nothing else. This was made clear to my then-boyfriend and he has told me it was a relief not to have to choose it all on his own as well as plan the romantic proposal

We spent a fun 3 weeks going around various stores working out what we both liked (sapphire and two small diamonds ) and while we did end up spending a bit more than we’d originally planned that really wasn’t the point - it was a joint decision and I really love my engagement ring for all the reasons people have mentioned above - I can’t imagine not wanting to wear it! (Fortunately my job doesn’t restrict me jewellery wise as I work in an office, or it might be a different story.)