Is Adventism Christian

[momor]

It does matter when someone says they are in agreement with you, and are deceptive about it. Also the Trinity is one of the defining charachteristics of True Christianity. It goes to the hear of who Jesus really is. Peace

Someone previously posted a description of the Trinity from the SDA’s own writings. I read through it and I didn’t see anything contrary to my understanding of the Trinity. I might not use the same words, but the understanding of 3 eternal persons in one God and Jesus being human and divine and born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary was there.

 

[benidict]

I’ve always though that it’s not possible to convert to Judaism, unless you are not a born Jew?
If I remeber correctly, this is also true for Hinduism (except some sects or even cults).

It is possible to convert to Judaism. But it is a very lengthy process. It can take from 3-5 years. If Catholocism is not true, then Christ is not Messiah. It is the Church that has proclaimed Him for 2000 years. No one else can claim a historical record all the way back to Pentacost. except the Orthodox, with whom we are in a schism with. and that is a seperation only by degree. It stands to reason then, if Christianity is not true, then the only logical step, would be to return to our sister Faith. Judaism. Hope this explains it better. you can p.m. me if you wish to disuss it further. Peace

 

[benidict]

Someone previously posted a description of the Trinity from the SDA’s own writings. I read through it and I didn’t see anything contrary to my understanding of the Trinity. I might not use the same words, but the understanding of 3 eternal persons in one God and Jesus being human and divine and born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary was there.

I think Marsha has done a wonderful Job, in showing how they do not have the same view of the Trinity as we have. We also had a Latter Day Saint friend, state that the Adventist view, is more akin to theirs. We have also had Adventist, state on this forum that Jesus gave up his divinity when he was born of Mary. We have also had Adventist state, that when Jesus was in the Grave, he was seperated from the Father. Adventism also teaches that Jesus is the Arch angel Michael. Adventist doctrine on the surface seems to fit the traditional model. But upon further investigation, it does not. This is not to say, that there are not Adventist who DO hold to a Traditional view. I believe there are. they may not know what their movement really teaches. This is for them, and Catholics who may be falling away from their faith, and looking into Adventism as a viable alternative. I have provided a Site where you can check this out. The Adventist on this forum can also come to this thread an challenge. I would personally welcome it. Peace

 

[Esdra]

I think Marsha has done a wonderful Job, in showing how they do not have the same view of the Trinity as we have. We also had a Latter Day Saint friend, state that the Adventist view, is more akin to theirs. We have also had Adventist, state on this forum that Jesus gave up his divinity when he was born of Mary. We have also had Adventist state, that when Jesus was in the Grave, he was seperated from the Father. Adventism also teaches that Jesus is the Arch angel Michael. Adventist doctrine on the surface seems to fit the traditional model. But upon further investigation, it does not. This is not to say, that there are not Adventist who DO hold to a Traditional view. I believe there are. they may not know what their movement really teaches. This is for them, and Catholics who may be falling away from their faith, and looking into Adventism as a viable alternative. I have provided a Site where you can check this out. The Adventist on this forum can also come to this thread an challenge. I would personally welcome it. Peace

The sentence in bold reminds of the RLDS Church (some of you may now that I am quite smypathizing with them! ). On the surface they also believe in the orthodox Trinity. It even says so in the BoM. - But I guess it’s similar with the adventists: Their view of the Trinity is quite similar to their mother church, the LDS Church.

 

[momor]

I think Marsha has done a wonderful Job, in showing how they do not have the same view of the Trinity as we have. We also had a Latter Day Saint friend, state that the Adventist view, is more akin to theirs. We have also had Adventist, state on this forum that Jesus gave up his divinity when he was born of Mary. We have also had Adventist state, that when Jesus was in the Grave, he was seperated from the Father. Adventism also teaches that Jesus is the Arch angel Michael. Adventist doctrine on the surface seems to fit the traditional model. But upon further investigation, it does not. This is not to say, that there are not Adventist who DO hold to a Traditional view. I believe there are. they may not know what their movement really teaches. This is for them, and Catholics who may be falling away from their faith, and looking into Adventism as a viable alternative. I have provided a Site where you can check this out. The Adventist on this forum can also come to this thread an challenge. I would personally welcome it. Peace

Do you disagree that the SDA description of the Trinity I referenced is essentially the same as other Christians? If so, perhaps you can break it down and explain where the differences are that show they are not Christian because I didn’t see them. I am not defending the SDA, I just don’t see the differences you are saying exist.

I know many Catholics, even on this forum, who contradict Catholic teaching and doctrine (usually unintentionally) all the time. I tend to give the writings of a religion more weight than the opinions or examples of it’s followers.

 

[benidict]

Do you disagree that the SDA description of the Trinity I referenced is essentially the same as other Christians? If so, perhaps you can break it down and explain where the differences are that show they are not Christian because I didn’t see them. I am not defending the SDA, I just don’t see the differences you are saying exist.

I know many Catholics, even on this forum, who contradict Catholic teaching and doctrine (usually unintentionally) all the time. I tend to give the writings of a religion more weight than the opinions or examples of it’s followers.

Yes, I do dissagree that the SDA description of the Trinity is essentially the same as other Christians. Not only I, but former Adventist disagree with you as well. You are welcome to go back and read Marshas very articulate post, or go to the web sites I have provided. Go all the way back to the start if you wish. I see no need to re hash all the points. Our Latter Day Saint friends have a different view of the Trinity also. Do you believe theirs is correct? They are very honest to show how their view differs. And they are not opposed to come to a thread to defend their views. If anything has been posted here that is incorrect, then the Adventist are more than welcome to come here and dispute these claims. So far, not ONE has done so. We have had a student of Adventism come on here, and his points are welcome. But not one practicing Adventist has done so. Why? Does not their silence make you wonder? If I have missed their post, plz point me to them. I will gladly answer them, and so will others. Peace

 

[momor]

Yes, I do dissagree that the SDA description of the Trinity is essentially the same as other Christians. Not only I, but former Adventist disagree with you as well. You are welcome to go back and read Marshas very articulate post, or go to the web sites I have provided. Go all the way back to the start if you wish. I see no need to re hash all the points. Our Latter Day Saint friends have a different view of the Trinity also. Do you believe theirs is correct? They are very honest to show how their view differs. And they are not opposed to come to a thread to defend their views. If anything has been posted here that is incorrect, then the Adventist are more than welcome to come here and dispute these claims. So far, not ONE has done so. We have had a student of Adventism come on here, and his points are welcome. But not one practicing Adventist has done so. Why? Does not their silence make you wonder? If I have missed their post, plz point me to them. I will gladly answer them, and so will others. Peace

I think you have sidestepped my question. I asked if you disagreed with the written description to break it apart and show how it differs from mainstream Christianity. I am not willing to just rely on what an individual says is their belief or former belief since individuals are often wrong about their faith doctrines, myself included. Pastors of individual churches may even be wrong and mislead their congregations. Don’t we hear Catholics on CAF complain all the time about something their priest said or does at Mass that they think is wrong? But we have the Catechism to fall back on.

I am not trying to be difficult, I just have yet to be convinced, given the SDA description of the Trinity, that the meaningful difference that you say exists really does.

 

[benidict]

I think you have sidestepped my question. I asked if you disagreed with the written description to break it apart and show how it differs from mainstream Christianity. I am not willing to just rely on what an individual says is their belief or former belief since individuals are often wrong about their faith doctrines, myself included. Pastors of individual churches may even be wrong and mislead their congregations. Don’t we hear Catholics on CAF complain all the time about something their priest said or does at Mass that they think is wrong? But we have the Catechism to fall back on.

I am not trying to be difficult, I just have yet to be convinced, given the SDA description of the Trinity, that the meaningful difference that you say exists really does.

There is no sidestep. All the material you are looking for is on this thread, or on the sites provided. Just because you are unwilling or unable to read throught the post, is no reason for me to have to re write all the differences again. Laxness on your part, is not a reason to attempt to make others to jump through hoops, or re write what has been written. I think Marsha is more than qualified, given that she was raised in this belief system, and even attended their university. In a Court room, She would be a credible witness would she not? If you wish, I can provide even More websites for you to go to, so you can come to your own conclusions. Some of these come from the writings of the founders of Adventism as well. Peace

 

[benidict]

The sentence in bold reminds of the RLDS Church (some of you may now that I am quite smypathizing with them! ). On the surface they also believe in the orthodox Trinity. It even says so in the BoM. - But I guess it’s similar with the adventists: Their view of the Trinity is quite similar to their mother church, the LDS Church.

Thank you Esdra. Please continue. This is very enlightening. Do share!

 

[momor]

There is no sidestep. All the material you are looking for is on this thread, or on the sites provided. Just because you are unwilling or unable to read throught the post, is no reason for me to have to re write all the differences again. Laxness on your part, is not a reason to attempt to make others to jump through hoops, or re write what has been written. I think Marsha is more than qualified, given that she was raised in this belief system, and even attended their university. In a Court room, She would be a credible witness would she not? If you wish, I can provide even More websites for you to go to, so you can come to your own conclusions. Some of these come from the writings of the founders of Adventism as well. Peace

I’m not interested in arguing with you so this will be my last reply. I have carefully read all of the posts and references looking for answers. Based on them I just don’t arrive at the same conclusion you do and I asked if you would use the SDA description to further explain the differences you see. If you don’t want to do that fine. But you leave me with the impression that perhaps you deflect because you cannot, also fine. Perhaps Marsha will be willing to break it down.

However, I want to point out that you are doing the same thing Marsha accused LiftHimUp of doing (go back around #55 or so). I also can list references (as you have done) that will tell you, incorrectly, what Catholics believe, so I don’t put a lot of stock in them. I believe if you want to know what a religion’s doctrines are you go to their formal writings which outline them. That is the standard of proof I accept. To answer to OP question, based on what I saw of the SDA description of the Trinity I see nothing there to say they are not Christian.

 

[CMatt25]

There is no sidestep. All the material you are looking for is on this thread, or on the sites provided. Just because you are unwilling or unable to read throught the post, is no reason for me to have to re write all the differences again. Laxness on your part, is not a reason to attempt to make others to jump through hoops, or re write what has been written. I think Marsha is more than qualified, given that she was raised in this belief system, and even attended their university. In a Court room, She would be a credible witness would she not? If you wish, I can provide even More websites for you to go to, so you can come to your own conclusions. Some of these come from the writings of the founders of Adventism as well. Peace

If we’re going to base credibilty on who is raised in a belief system and who may have even practiced, then it follows anyone raised and formerly practicing Catholicism would be a credible witness to it as well. And I know you don’t believe that. I’m not saying an ex Adventist can not nor that any are not doing quite well in explaining their understanding. I’m not Adventist. But I’ve spoken with Adventists who might not always agree with an ex just as I’ve spoken with Catholics who don’t agree with those less faithful to Catholicism. I’m just sayin. So I don’t know but maybe an actual Adventist would be more credible on the stand. Though why more have not come forward, I don’t know. Perhaps they don’t feel like arguing over the same things all the time.

 

[Mary_Christ]

Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Ellen White
Notice I didnt say are Adventist Christians. My question pertains to the doctrines of Adventism. Are the doctrines taught in the Adventist Church in line with what has been taught, not only by Catholicism, but by Protestants as well, throughout Church History?
I.E. the Trinity? the Sabbath? Christology? Are these very important and essential doctrines the same? Or do they hold to a different Jesus? A different Trinity.
We see alot of threads here about the Mormons. But have we ever really investigated if in fact, the Adventist Hold to some very un orthodox teachings concerning the Faith?
Again. Lets Keep this to Adventist doctrine, and not individual Adventist. Peace

I am an anti-adventist. I do not find that they teach the truth about Jesus. When in a public restaurant, a bunch of them SDA people were on break. None of them had a Bible with them, none of them quoted the scriptures, and there were several who agreed and stated that it is o.k. to sin. Now many of the SDA’s are victims of crimes and the SDA’s cannot file charges because they have said publicly and will not publicly relent on this claim. And this statement is on private film. After all if one gives permission for another to steal from them it is difficult to charge them with the crime. And furthermore the 3ABN network puts much to much emphasis on end times when the first of the end isn’t anywhere near yet. Trillions of people who watch 3ABN are going to die without really knowing what confession, repentance and forgiveness is all about. Trust the Bible, the written word, a vegetable life-style of eating is NOT a repentance for anything and will not be considered a repentance. Did Jesus eat everything but meat when fasting in the desert, or did He go without all foods? :coffeeread:
Mary

 

[CMatt25]

I am an anti-adventist. I do not find that they teach the truth about Jesus. When in a public restaurant, a bunch of them SDA people were on break. None of them had a Bible with them, none of them quoted the scriptures, and there were several who agreed and stated that it is o.k. to sin.

I’m not quite sure what you mean here. If you are serious, or tongue in cheek. That Adventists don’t use the Bible? They might not on break at their workplace. But actually they are rather big on searchng Scripture to see if things are so. Just as the Apostle Paul wrote in Acts 17:10 for the Bereans to do. And I’ve been given a NKJV Bible from an Adventist friend as a Christmas gift before. And a “Bible Speaks” booklet another time. I’ve also been given non-religious gifts for that matter though. And we’ve shared meals. She didn’t eat pork. She had no problem if I wanted to though and it was no big thing.

If I misunderstood your post which is entirely possible, please forgive me.

 

[benidict]

If we’re going to base credibilty on who is raised in a belief system and who may have even practiced, then it follows anyone raised and formerly practicing Catholicism would be a credible witness to it as well. And I know you don’t believe that. I’m not saying an ex Adventist can not nor that any are not doing quite well in explaining their understanding. I’m not Adventist. But I’ve spoken with Adventists who might not always agree with an ex just as I’ve spoken with Catholics who don’t agree with those less faithful to Catholicism. I’m just sayin. So I don’t know but maybe an actual Adventist would be more credible on the stand. Though why more have not come forward, I don’t know. Perhaps they don’t feel like arguing over the same things all the time.

I would agree with this my friend. but given the educational level of the ex- Adventist, and being raised and indoctinated in such, I would have to conclude she does know what she is talking about. As to your comment that they dont wish to argue the same things all the time? I find this laughable. They have no problem going on other threads that have nothing to do with this, and sling verses left and right. But when a thread comes up that directly involves them, and calls into question their doctrines, they scatter. What is the real reason? No self respecting Mormon on this forum would just sit back and take what has been said, if in fact anything stated was not true, or they believed they were not true. So where are the Adventist. My invitation still stands. If you know any that are scholars, theologians, pastors, plz invite them. Id welcome it. I think we have hit on something they are attempting to keep hidden, and just wish those of us who challenge them would just go away. I believe a person should know what they are getting into before they commit. I believe the leadership of this organization uses less than honest tactics to gain converts. Peace

 

[benidict]

I’m not interested in arguing with you so this will be my last reply. I have carefully read all of the posts and references looking for answers. Based on them I just don’t arrive at the same conclusion you do and I asked if you would use the SDA description to further explain the differences you see. If you don’t want to do that fine. But you leave me with the impression that perhaps you deflect because you cannot, also fine. Perhaps Marsha will be willing to break it down.

However, I want to point out that you are doing the same thing Marsha accused LiftHimUp of doing (go back around #55 or so). I also can list references (as you have done) that will tell you, incorrectly, what Catholics believe, so I don’t put a lot of stock in them. I believe if you want to know what a religion’s doctrines are you go to their formal writings which outline them. That is the standard of proof I accept. To answer to OP question, based on what I saw of the SDA description of the Trinity I see nothing there to say they are not Christian.

And your opinion is duly noted. Thank you.

 

[benidict]

…] “Secondly, as several of the gentlemen have pointed out, the doctrine of the Trinity that we teach is not identical to the doctrine of the Trinity as developed by the Roman Catholic Church. …]” (A panel participant at the Q&A Session at the end of the Adventist Theological Society’s 2006 “Trinity Symposium,” atsjats.org/site/1/podcast/06_Trinity_Participants_Panel_Discussion.mp3)

“I just wanted to comment, in line with what has already been said, but that there were several tribes that were identified by the Papacy as Arian. Ellen White warns us, however, about the fact that the Papal historical process has actually confused many issues. But I would like to say, I think there were seven non-orthodox, which means those who did not hold their brand of Trinitarianism, which we reject today, along with them. So, we probably would have been branded as Arian by the orthodox.” (SDA scholar and author A. LeRoy Moore, at the panel Q&A Session at the ATS 2006 “Trinity Symposium,” atsjats.org/site/1/podcast/06_Trinity_Participants_Panel_Discussion.mp3)

"It is true that the Council of Nicaea and the Council of Constantinople did make declarations that we must now reject because they disagree with Scripture. …]

Much more can be found at CultOrChristian.com, for anyone who wishes to learn more. Peace

 

[Marsha_Adams]

The following link leads to the article, “The Trinity in Seventh-day Adventist History” by Merlin Burt, E. G. White Estate Branch Office, Andrews University

biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/Trinity%20in%20SDA%20History.pdf

The next link leads to the article, “The Doctrine of t he Trinity Among Adventists by Gerhard Pfandl or the Biblical Research Institute, Silver Spring, MD written in June 1999

scribd.com/doc/16355113/Trinity-Doctrine-Among-Sda

For those interested, The Biblical Research Institute was established as a service department by action of the Seventh Day Adventist General Conference Committee in 1975. The historical roots of the institute go back to the Defense Literature Committee (established 1943) and the Committee on Biblical Study and Research (established 1952).

What is significant about Pfandl’s definition is that he actually defines the Trinity as not only a “unity of three persons” but actually says they are of “one substance.” This is the Catholic definition of the Trinity. If Pfandl is correct that this is what the SDAs believe, then they are in fact Trinitarian Monotheists and I am mistaken in accusing them of being polytheists. Of course, the question is when did they become monotheists? It should be noted that in Burt’s article, he points out, “The current unambiguous statement on the Trinity in the Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental Beliefs was revised and voted at the 1980 General Conference Session.” Pfandl’s article was written in 1999. Have the SDAs only been bona fide monotheists for the last 31 years? To my mind, the even more important issue is that Pfandl’s article is the only place in SDA literature that I have found it clearly stated that SDAs believe that the three Persons of the Trinity are consubstantial. One would think that if this was in fact part of SDA understanding of the Trinity, it would be more widely disseminated.

The 1957 edition of Questions on Doctrine discusses the SDA doctrine on the Trinity. It also discusses Christ and Michael, the Archangel. The link to the on-line version is:

sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/index.htm

It should be remembered that Questions on Doctrine was published to make SDAism acceptable to evangelical Christianity. It is as notable for what it does not address as for what it does.

 

[benidict]

The following link leads to the article, “The Trinity in Seventh-day Adventist History” by Merlin Burt, E. G. White Estate Branch Office, Andrews University

biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/documents/Trinity%20in%20SDA%20History.pdf

The next link leads to the article, “The Doctrine of t he Trinity Among Adventists by Gerhard Pfandl or the Biblical Research Institute, Silver Spring, MD written in June 1999

scribd.com/doc/16355113/Trinity-Doctrine-Among-Sda

For those interested, The Biblical Research Institute was established as a service department by action of the Seventh Day Adventist General Conference Committee in 1975. The historical roots of the institute go back to the Defense Literature Committee (established 1943) and the Committee on Biblical Study and Research (established 1952).

What is significant about Pfandl’s definition is that he actually defines the Trinity as not only a “unity of three persons” but actually says they are of “one substance.” This is the Catholic definition of the Trinity. If Pfandl is correct that this is what the SDAs believe, then they are in fact Trinitarian Monotheists and I am mistaken in accusing them of being polytheists. Of course, the question is when did they become monotheists? It should be noted that in Burt’s article, he points out, “The current unambiguous statement on the Trinity in the Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental Beliefs was revised and voted at the 1980 General Conference Session.” Pfandl’s article was written in 1999. Have the SDAs only been bona fide monotheists for the last 31 years? To my mind, the even more important issue is that Pfandl’s article is the only place in SDA literature that I have found it clearly stated that SDAs believe that the three Persons of the Trinity are consubstantial. One would think that if this was in fact part of SDA understanding of the Trinity, it would be more widely disseminated.

The 1957 edition of Questions on Doctrine discusses the SDA doctrine on the Trinity. It also discusses Christ and Michael, the Archangel. The link to the on-line version is:

sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/index.htm

It should be remembered that Questions on Doctrine was published to make SDAism acceptable to evangelical Christianity. It is as notable for what it does not address as for what it does.

Hi Marsha. Thank you for the info. I will look up the links. Could it be said then, that it is a possibility that Adventism itself, has within its own ranks, differing views of the Trinity? Would this be a fair assessment? and if so, then the teaching authority within Adventism has not come to any concrete decisions on this? I would be very happy to be wrong on this issue. Nothing would be better, than if in fact they DO have a solid understanding of the Trinitarian doctrine. Peace and prayers for you.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Hi Marsha. Thank you for the info. I will look up the links. Could it be said then, that it is a possibility that Adventism itself, has within its own ranks, differing views of the Trinity? Would this be a fair assessment? and if so, then the teaching authority within Adventism has not come to any concrete decisions on this? I would be very happy to be wrong on this issue. Nothing would be better, than if in fact they DO have a solid understanding of the Trinitarian doctrine. Peace and prayers for you.

First off, the SDA denomination has no “teaching authority” This is made manifest in their guidelines on abortion when the GC says they have no authority to forbid it (that was a charitable paraphrase, by the way.)

Second, Pfandl is the only one that I have found who even uses the word “substance”. To my mind, there are two reasons for this. A. substance cannot be proven Scripturally, and B. because there are many SDAs with widely differing understandings of the Trinity the denomination is very careful not to get too specific with its explanations.

Do a search on Seventh Day Adventist Trinity Substance you will find a couple interesting things. Also do a search on Seventh Day Adventist Tritheism.

 

[benidict]

First off, the SDA denomination has no “teaching authority” This is made manifest in their guidelines on abortion when the GC says they have no authority to forbid it (that was a charitable paraphrase, by the way.)

Second, Pfandl is the only one that I have found who even uses the word “substance”. To my mind, there are two reasons for this. A. substance cannot be proven Scripturally, and B. because there are many SDAs with widely differing understandings of the Trinity the denomination is very careful not to get too specific with its explanations.

Do a search on Seventh Day Adventist Trinity Substance you will find a couple interesting things. Also do a search on Seventh Day Adventist Tritheism.

Yes Marsha, thanks for reminding me. I ran into this term today. Tritheism. Is there any validity to the links I posted before you came on? There seem to be mixed messages reguarding this issue. Thank you so much for all your help. The info you are providing is invaluable to many people here. Peace