Is it enough - to be good?

[BarbaraTherese]

Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
Your statement above does not make sense, since if Jesus had not suffered and died then Heaven would be open to no one.

po18guy replies:

I wrote this more for those of vacillating or weak faith. Since we are in a post-Christian world, we must convince seemingly the entire world all over again about Christ’s sacrifice, and Christianity.

Oh goodness! No never! We can never and must never - not ever - attempt to convince others at the cost of truth. Not at the cost of truth for God Himself is Truth!!!
The end can never ever justify the means!!! And to do so in order to attempt to bring about what one sights as a good result is verging on religious fanaticism and zeal gone completely astray.

1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

**This is of course true, but by no means does it tell us, that there was no human in heaven before.
All it tells us is, that people who where just like we are, could not get into heaven before Jesus’ salvation.
It never said, that people who where Saints like the mentioned, too couldn’t be or get into heaven.

Let’s read the this morning mentioned verses in the Holy Bible like Luke 16:31 and many others -
or see 2Kings 2:1-18 (how the LORD took Elijah up to heaven).

There is no word in the Old or New Testament, that nobody - no human was in heaven before Jesus opened heaven’s gates for those who had gone before him. It refers to those who where just like we. Else we’d skip a lot of other Bible verses and misinterpret.
Jesus also did not open heavens gates for ALL; but for those who live(d) in Gods word.
**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

If you believe God as being pure good then you must consider that all expressions of humanly goodness must stem from God.
No matter who you are, when conveying an act of charity, or showing loving kindness to another,it is God who is doing the act through you. The most profound atheist when doing a good deed has God expressing himself through that person… he is simply not aware of it. There is only One Eternal Good, this is God. Christ asked his apostles"why do you call me good" and continued to tell them “Only My Father in Heaven is Good”.
A perfect example of Jesus humbling even himself, insisting the goodness that shone from Him was impossible without The Father.

When living a life absent of evil you abide in Gods goodness. He has Blessed that individual, regardless of what theological background he or she comes from.

**Hi Jon,

Very well done. If it wasn’t for Jesus telling us There is no way but through Him and the entire chapter of John 6. Your observation would be entirely valid.

There are extremely good people all through out the world and history. Hopefully through the graces of the CC they will obtain etrenal life. That is God’s decision, even Bruno can’t say for sure what Gid will decide!

God Bless**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

even Bruno can’t say for sure what God will decide!

**Ha ha (just good for two ha)
Bruno, that’s nobody - a germ perhaps or a bacilli - forget Bruno **

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**According to many who think as “jon27” clearly expressed (because these others don’t bother), we might forget all about that aimless existence of Christianity, away with that Catholicism, forget the Bible. God is expressing himself even through he most profound atheist when this guy accidentally was doing a good deed.

Ain’t that a great and innocent philosophy, that simplifies life as a whole?!
Simply live. Animals do so and are happy if humans leave them alone. Atheists do so and are happy if Christians leave them alone and don’t insist on all that God-stuff, that’s anyway burdening. And we are so free without!

Bible – ha – why read the Bible, when there is Mickey Mouse or Hemingway. Pope? Church? Waist of recourses! I don’t know why and how they edify Christians. I’m edified enough of news of the Queen and Hollywood and TV. Even more interesting news. God? Who’s that. Oh – He speaks through me from time to time. Ain’t that enough?

Oh my dear friend! Try to get back on the track – you are off-road and didn’t realise yet.
Forget me as I’m just writing stuff all Christians know anyhow.
But why don’t you simply ask a Catholic Priest about that rubbish I write. Might be he says; well, there is a crumb of truth is that…. And suddenly you get shifted back on the track for the way is Jesus, the truth is Jesus, the life is Jesus. There is none of each without Jesus. Believe it or let it. All of us will see personally one day. Ok - we might waite to see then, or arrange not to be too surprised

**

 

[BarbaraTherese]

**This is of course true, but by no means does it tell us, that there was no human in heaven before. **
All it tells us is, that people who where just like we are, could not get into heaven before Jesus’ salvation.
It never said, that people who where Saints like the mentioned, too couldn’t be or get into heaven.

Let’s read the this morning mentioned verses in the Holy Bible like Luke 16:31 and many others -
or see 2Kings 2:1-18 (how the LORD took Elijah up to heaven).

There is no word in the Old or New Testament, that nobody - no human was in heaven before Jesus opened heaven’s gates for those who had gone before him. It refers to those who where just like we. Else we’d skip a lot of other Bible verses and misinterpret.
**Jesus also did not open heavens gates for ALL; but for those who live(d) in Gods word. **

Sadly, you are not in accord with what The Church teaches if you compare the above statements you have made with my quotes from the Catholic Catechism.

 

[po18guy]

Oh goodness! No never! We can never and must never - not ever - attempt to convince others at the cost of truth. Not at the cost of truth for God Himself is Truth!!!
The end can never ever justify the means!!! And to do so in order to attempt to bring about what one sights as a good result is verging on religious fanaticism and zeal gone completely astray.

Huh? What I mean is that we are in a world which increasingly does not believe in the salvation of Christ, the existence of God, or of any need for salvation - a world which thinks that it IS enough just to be a good person. Fervent belief in Christianity is waning amongst the general population, so therefore we must speak the truth. Yes, 100% revealed truth to convince the world.

I have no idea where being dishonest, a sin before the Lord, came into the picture?!?

We are being called to a new evangelization, as each generation tends to fall away form the truth. An evangelization that involves only the revealed truth.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

Sadly, you are not in accord with what The Church teaches

**Nor would I have any idea, why I should not be in accord with the Churchs teaching

Don’t you think all is possible to God?! There are no rules and regulations that would forbid God to take Abraham, Eliah or other Saints into heaven before Christ’s salvation. And surely Eliah and Abraham haven’t been in a purgatory or even hell when Abraham said "there’s an insurmountable remoteness (abyss) between us and hell.
**

 

[jon27]

**According to many who think as “jon27” clearly expressed (because these others don’t bother), we might forget all about that aimless existence of Christianity, away with that Catholicism, forget the Bible. God is expressing himself even through he most profound atheist when this guy accidentally was doing a good deed.

Ain’t that a great and innocent philosophy, that simplifies life as a whole?!
Simply live. Animals do so and are happy if humans leave them alone. Atheists do so and are happy if Christians leave them alone and don’t insist on all that God-stuff, that’s anyway burdening. And we are so free without!

Bible – ha – why read the Bible, when there is Mickey Mouse or Hemingway. Pope? Church? Waist of recourses! I don’t know why and how they edify Christians. I’m edified enough of news of the Queen and Hollywood and TV. Even more interesting news. God? Who’s that. Oh – He speaks through me from time to time. Ain’t that enough?

Oh my dear friend! Try to get back on the track – you are off-road and didn’t realise yet.
Forget me as I’m just writing stuff all Christians know anyhow.
But why don’t you simply ask a Catholic Priest about that rubbish I write. Might be he says; well, there is a crumb of truth is that…. And suddenly you get shifted back on the track for the way is Jesus, the truth is Jesus, the life is Jesus. There is none of each without Jesus. Believe it or let it. All of us will see personally one day. Ok - we might waite to see then, or arrange not to be too surprised

**

I suppose the Jews, who read only half of [our] Bible are all going to be subject to eternal damnation. I gather it would also include the innocent children mutilated at the death camps of World War II, their only{ fault?} being born into the Jewish faith, learning the Commandments of God from their fathers, thereby keeping the Commandments To Love The Lord Your God, and Honor Thy Father & Mother. This calls for eternal damnation? Innocent people who must abide in the same Hell for eternity with the evil ones that killed them and their families? This is ludicrous.

I am speaking of HUMANITY MAN… not Mickey Mouse as you have suggested. I most definetly am not by any stretch underminding The Bible. I dont know where you get this from?

You say that Im off track. That must mean your on the right one.
If so, tell us all. Let us get to the essence of this thread. What is the fate of the Jewish Children I have Illustrated? The easy answer would be to simply quote Scripture.
Another way would be to answer in a way that only God knows, but I am asking you, who speaks with such authority, WHAT WAS THE FATE OF THE JEWISH CHILDREN WHO DID NOT KNOW CHRIST.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I suppose the Jews, who read only half of [our] Bible are all going to be subject to eternal damnation. I gather it would also include the innocent children mutilated at the death camps of World War II, their only{ fault?} being born into the Jewish faith, learning the Commandments of God from their fathers, thereby keeping the Commandments To Love The Lord Your God, and Honor Thy Father & Mother. This calls for eternal damnation? Innocent people who must abide in the same Hell for eternity with the evil ones that killed them and their families? This is ludicrous.

I am speaking of HUMANITY MAN… not Mickey Mouse as you have suggested. I most definetly am not by any stretch underminding The Bible. I dont know where you get this from?

You say that Im off track. That must mean your on the right one.
If so, tell us all. Let us get to the essence of this thread. What is the fate of the Jewish Children I have Illustrated? The easy answer would be to simply quote Scripture.
Another way would be to answer in a way that only God knows, but I am asking you, who speaks with such authority, WHAT WAS THE FATE OF THE JEWISH CHILDREN WHO DID NOT KNOW CHRIST.

**Hi Jon,
Take a deep breath! …HOLD IT… Now, Let it out! Again! … OK feel better now? Please refer to Post #84.

Jon, If everything was “going great!” Why would God have to send His son to die? It was so that by believing in Him people could be saved. Correct? And by His cross and resurection He paid the price required for all sin to be forgiven. Argeed? Even the “non-believers” sins! Agreed?
But if they do not believe and do not know of Gods :“Gift” could they be denied it? IMO No, they would get the gift when they died; Eternal salvation through the graces of the RCC! God can provide them the knowledge if He wanted to do that couldn’t he?
Now, If they were given the knowledge, and through pride or other false reasons they deny that they “know the way” and through their “free will” reject salvation, or follow false prophets, will they be saved? NO! Jesus sais that will not happen! Plan and clearly. Because if it would, where would man’s free will be? What would sin matter? Why would the devil continue to tempt us?

Bottom line. Only God Almight knows for sure! However, being that God is pure logic, and pure love, it follows that he wouldn’t deny a Gift that He personal “Gave” ,unselfishly ,to anyone unless they denied or refused it.

Does that make sense?

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Huh? What I mean is that we are in a world which increasingly does not believe in the salvation of Christ, the existence of God, or of any need for salvation - a world which thinks that it IS enough just to be a good person. Fervent belief in Christianity is waning amongst the general population, so therefore we must speak the truth. Yes, 100% revealed truth to convince the world.

I have no idea where being dishonest, a sin before the Lord, came into the picture?!?

We are being called to a new evangelization, as each generation tends to fall away form the truth. An evangelization that involves only the revealed truth.
**
Christ’s peace.

Hi po1, ,
We are called to pray, pray and pray! Through prayer all things are possible.
“The best thing to give to your enemy is forgiveness; to an opponent, tolerance; to a friend, your heart; to your child, a good example; to a father, deference; to your mother, conduct that will make her proud of you; to yourself, respect; to all men, charity.” --Francis Maitland Balfour

God Bless
**

 

[jon27]

**Hi Jon,
Take a deep breath! …HOLD IT… Now, Let it out! Again! … OK feel better now? Please refer to Post #84.

Jon, If everything was “going great!” Why would God have to send His son to die? It was so that by believing in Him people could be saved. Correct? And by His cross and resurection He paid the price required for all sin to be forgiven. Argeed? Even the “non-believers” sins! Agreed?
But if they do not believe and do not know of Gods :“Gift” could they be denied it? IMO No, they would get the gift when they died; Eternal salvation through the graces of the RCC! God can provide them the knowledge if He wanted to do that couldn’t he?
Now, If they were given the knowledge, and through pride or other false reasons they deny that they “know the way” and through their “free will” reject salvation, or follow false prophets, will they be saved? NO! Jesus sais that will not happen! Plan and clearly. Because if it would, where would man’s free will be? What would sin matter? Why would the devil continue to tempt us?

Bottom line. Only God Almight knows for sure! However, being that God is pure logic, and pure love, it follows that he wouldn’t deny a Gift that He personal “Gave” ,unselfishly ,to anyone unless they denied or refused it.

Does that make sense?

God Bless**

It does not answer the question I asked. Your Bottom Line is interesting. If God is pure love he is not capable of conveying anything else but love in its totality. I continue to await a clear answer on my question.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

It does not answer the question I asked. Your Bottom Line is interesting. If God is pure love he is not capable of conveying anything else but love in its totality. I continue to await a clear answer on my question.
**Hi jon, That many take until you see God personaly, old friend! And then what difference will it make?

**
**You Asked:

" Another way would be to answer in a way that only God knows, but I am asking you, who speaks with such authority, WHAT WAS THE FATE OF THE JEWISH CHILDREN WHO DID NOT KNOW CHRIST"

**

That was addresses to Bruno, However I amswered:" If everything was “going great!” Why would God have to send His son to die? It was so that by believing in Him people could be saved. Correct? And by His cross and resurection He paid the price required for all sin to be forgiven. Argeed? Even the “non-believers” sins! Agreed?
But if they do not believe and do not know of Gods :“Gift” could they be denied it? IMO No, they would get the gift when they died; Eternal salvation through the graces of the RCC! God can provide them the knowledge if He wanted to do that couldn’t he?

What part did not answer your question clearly?? Only God can judge God. But this is what the RCC teaches from the traditions we have been taught. If that doesn’t satify go fight with bruno some more!

God Bless. .

 

[BarbaraTherese]

What I meant was as follows:

po18guy said:
“If it is enough to be good, then the Lord God sent His Son to suffer and die for nothing.”

This implies that God sent His Son to suffer and to die for the good alone, rather Jesus came for the whole of mankind - hence your statement is theologically unsound and I pointed this out.

To that you replied that you only said it because of those who are weak in Faith. And I took it to mean that you realized that your statement was wrong, but said it because of those who were weak in Faith.

That led me to point out that we cannot evangelize with untruths.
I never directly accused you of anything, I simply pointed out that we cannot evangelize with untruths. Apologies if I have misread what you said.

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cab/viewpost.gif
Sadly, you are not in accord with what The Church teaches

****Nor would I have any idea, why I should not be in accord with the Churchs teaching ****

Don’t you think all is possible to God?! There are no rules and regulations that would forbid God to take Abraham, Eliah or other Saints into heaven before Christ’s salvation. And surely Eliah and Abraham haven’t been in a purgatory or even hell when Abraham said "there’s an insurmountable remoteness (abyss) between us and hell.

Indeed God can do all things but to state that God actually has acted outside His own laws (the laws of The Church) is another matter altogether, and is to proclaim something contrary to what The Church teaches… and to state something that is not in accord with Catholic Teaching is heretical. And your statement above is directly contrary to what The Church states as I pointed out in this quotation from the Catholic Catechism:
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm
**633

Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.479 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:

480 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."481 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.482

**

*637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. *

He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

---

Your logic is simply unsound and does not make sense…after all if God had taken Abraham and our Old Testament saints to Heaven acting against His own laws, then why could he not take to Heaven those in mortal sin, forgiving them…since you state God can do all things - and indeed He can. But as I said, to proclaim that He actually has is another matter and heretical.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Huh? What I mean is that we are in a world which increasingly does not believe in the salvation of Christ, the existence of God, or of any need for salvation - a world which thinks that it IS enough just to be a good person.

**Hi Po18

Statistics on religious beliefs of the USA

Belief in God
1947 94%
1954 99%
1978 94%
1994 96%
1998 88%
2000 85%
2004 89%
Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion, Baylor University, 2006-SEP

Belief in an afterlife (among Protestants) 86%
Belief in an afterlife (among Roman Catholics) 83%
Belief in an afterlife (among Jews) 74%
Belief in an afterlife (among adults with no religious affiliation) 58%Over all 75%
1999 Poll by the Survey Research Center at the University of California at Berkeley CA

Satan is an evil symbol, not a living entity (1997) 62%
Strongly believe that Satan is real (2001) 27%
Satan is real (2003) 68%
WorldNetDaily, 2003-FEB-27. **
There have been studies done which Fervent belief in Christianity is waning amongst the general population, so therefore we must speak the truth. Yes, 100% revealed truth to convince the world.

I have no idea where being dishonest, a sin before the Lord, came into the picture?!?

We are being called to a new evangelization, as each generation tends to fall away form the truth. An evangelization that involves only the revealed truth.

**The problem we have is the Government with Satan’s help is attempting to remove God from our everyday lives! We must resist and complain! **

Christ’s peace.

 

[jon27]

Realcatholicgk:
You have taken me by surprise Realcatholic.I have admired a great deal of your writings, they are simple and to the point. I expected something more from you rather than attempting to be a referee between Bruno and myself. There is, at least on my part no want of a fight. I am attempting to have a dialogue with some good people. We could be many other places but we choose to be here.

However the participants of this thread argue with one another with quotes from Scripture. In Scripture it clearly states that man cannot achieve Heaven and dwell with the Almighty unless through Jesus Christ. I believe throughout this thread mostly everyone has expounded on this very verse. It has been the key defense of many as to the title “Is it Good enough to be Good”

If the participants believe in the passage with complete Catholic conviction then why can’t they give a simple yes or no answer to the question of the Jewish children and the concentration camps of WWII. If you believe in your heart there is no entrance into Heaven without Christ then the conclusion is the innocent were damned to hell with their killers. If you simply say that only God knows the answer to the scenario, you have now invalidated the passage, it becomes less authoritive.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

You have taken me by surprise Realcatholic.I have admired a great deal of your writings, they are simple and to the point. I expected something more from you rather than attempting to be a referee between Bruno and myself. There is, at least on my part no want of a fight. I am attempting to have a dialogue with some good people. We could be many other places but we choose to be here.

However the participants of this thread argue with one another with quotes from Scripture. In Scripture it clearly states that man cannot achieve Heaven and dwell with the Almighty unless through Jesus Christ. I believe throughout this thread mostly everyone has expounded on this very verse. It has been the key defense of many as to the title “Is it Good enough to be Good”

If the participants believe in the passage with complete Catholic conviction then why can’t they give a simple yes or no answer to the question of the Jewish children and the concentration camps of WWII. If you believe in your heart there is no entrance into Heaven without Christ then the conclusion is the innocent were damned to hell with their killers. If you simply say that only God knows the answer to the scenario, you have now invalidated the passage, it becomes less authoritive.

To respond in part to the above …
The theology of salvation through Christ and His Church is almost a whole Catholic theology of its own and is not as simplistic nor as illogical as has often been presented in this thread:

ancient-future.net/prots.html

Yet, the Catholic Church also warns that we must not embrace pluralism, indifferentism, or religious relativism, i.e. when all religions are viewed as equally valid paths to salvation. All salvation is through Jesus Christ, even that of non-Christians. The Catholic Church still affirms extra ecclesiam nulla salus, which is the ancient Christian Teaching that outside of the Church nobody can be saved. This Teaching is Catholic dogma, and is attested in the writings of many Church Fathers, including Ignatius of Antioch (AD 105), Cyprian of Carthage (AD 250), and Origen of Alexandria (AD 220). So, if the Catholic Church holds to the ancient standard of extra ecclesiam nulla salus, how can those non-Christians who seem to be outside the Church be saved? Catholic Teaching is that those non-Catholics who are saved, are somehow inside the Church, albeit imperfectly. According to Dominus Iesus,

The actual whereabouts of every single individual soul other than those declared saints by The Church - only God can know as a sure fired certain fact. Certainly those good people and certainly children amongst the Jewish people murdered in concentration camps would be undoubtedly in Heaven. Prove it? This cannot be done nor can it be done for any soul outside of declared saints of The Church.

The annoying thing to me in this thread is that most all of it is each members personal opinion only with no links or quotations given to support their concepts or arguments, which really does mean that their concepts and arguments remain personal opinions only.

See also
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/salvation-of-non-christians/

Barb

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

to state that God actually has acted outside His own laws (the laws of The Church) is another matter altogether, and is to proclaim something contrary to what The Church teaches…

**So you really think, that God would say; “oh, I’m so sorry, it’s so sad, but I just can’t take Elijah to heaven, which I’d so willingly like to do, but I’m bound to my decision I made - not to, before the salvation, though my Church will teach as it will be written in the Holy Bible; the Ascension of Elijah”.
(by the way; there was no Catholic Church at the time of Elijah nor a Bible).

God might forgive my frivolous expressions, but it might help you to understand, that God is not bound to anything, as I (according to the church) pointed out so many times.
Jesus himself repeated Jeremiah 32:17 “Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard and impossible for You.” – Jesus too said: Nothing is impossible to the Father.**

 

[BarbaraTherese]

So you really think, that God would say; “oh, I’m so sorry, it’s so sad, but I just can’t take Elijah to heaven, which I’d so willingly like to do, but I’m bound to my decision I made - not to, before the salvation, though my Church will teach as it will be written in the Holy Bible; the Ascension of Elijah”.
(by the way; there was no Catholic Church at the time of Elijah nor a Bible).

**God might forgive my frivolous expressions, but it might help you to understand, that God is not bound to anything, as I (according to the church) pointed out so many times. **
Jesus himself repeated Jeremiah 32:17 “Sovereign LORD, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard and impossible for You.” – Jesus too said: Nothing is impossible to the Father.

You are then contradicting what The Church states in the Catholic Catechism:

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. Quote:***
He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.*

and again from the Catholic Catechism, as well as all the other links I have given to authoritative Catholic sources:

1026 "By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has ‘opened’ heaven to us.

Because God can do all things, and He can…does not mean that He will actually do all we can imagine. It means that God can indeed do whatever He may will.

What you are stating is not Catholic teaching and if you keep insisting that it is, then please give references to reliable Catholic authorities which authentic what you are saying…and I know that there are none - because The Church does not teach what you are saying.