Is it immoral to take gov't unemployment money we didn't pay for?

[catholiclala]

Why shouldn’t non-Asians be using the term? Are only Asians allowed to callout China?

To wrap this up I just don’t think anyone should be using this term to make political statements. I don’t love Communist China either but I think using this term right now is tone deaf and non-productive. There are better ways to educate people on the issues there.

 

[Elias]

So what if non-Asians use the term? As an American I use it as a reminder on where and who is responsible for the outbreak (The CCP and the cultural acceptance of having unsanitary meat markets and eating exotic meats, but mostly the CCP). As an asian, I’m not even remotely offended by the term.

Some bad people use things inappropriately all the time (least we forget that Hitler drinks water too). People make moutains out of mole hills just to start controversy and for political control (never forget the nothing burger controversy of the ). We shouldn’t have to police our own speech because someone somewhere will get offended. It no better than 1984 totalitarian newspeak.

but it’s current year!

So? If we are going to police our speech over this Chinese virus over potentially offending people, why stop there? We should change ALL the names of the historical plauges as to not offend people (Spanish flu is offensive to Spaniards, the Black plauge can be offensive to black people, the swine flu is offensive to vegans on pigs’ behalf, etc etc). It’s destroying the past to spare the feelings of the few for the present. It rewrites history for no good purpose.

Much like how the term ISIS was changed to ISIL or Al-Nusra. You talk with anyone and mention Al-Nusra and they won’t recognize the term, but you say ISIS instead and people will instantly know. You change the name of something you remove the context and supplement it with your own.

As an Asian American I will continue to use the term Chinese flu wether the perpetually offended like it or not. Beacuse it’s more offensive to me thay people get offended on my behalf when there is no offense to be had.

 

[Kei]

If so, that is very sad.

 

[Phemie]

Alyosha1984:

she did not pay any meaningful amount of unemployment insurance

Employees do not pay unemployment insurance, employers do.

Really? In the US the employee doesn’t pay employment insurance?

In Canada we both pay, with the employer paying 1.4 times what the employee does.

 

[1ke]

Really? In the US the employee doesn’t pay employment insurance?

In the US it is entirely funded by an employer tax.

It’s federally regulated and state administered.

There are both federal and state unemployment taxes that employers must pay.

 

[Wesrock]

There are also individuals of Chinese descent and non-communist Chinese who are being absurdly discriminated against in regards to COVID-19. Calling it the “Chinese virus” perpetuates the prejudice with those who spread hatred. It’s not just about offending people, but encouraging prejudice.

 

[mythbuster1]

Theoretically, but what I expect will actually happen is that people will use surplus cash to pay down debt, rather than getting into bidding wars for nonessential goods.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Not theoretically. When governments print money that is exactly what happens. I made no comment about how people would spend it, which has nothing to do with the effect printing money out of thin air has.

 

[mythbuster1]

It’s theoretical because the monetary base is only one component of the money supply. Theoretically, the money supply can be up to ten times the monetary base, since banks only need to maintain a reserve of 10% of their outstanding deposits and can create deposits by making loans. However, if loans are extinguished faster than they are created, this component of the money supply contracts, offsetting increases in the monetary base.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Nothing theoretical about. Printing money devalues the dollar. More money causes prices to rise and you don’t have the same our hasing power.

 

[JSRG]

I feel it is immoral to take this government money because she did not pay any meaningful amount of unemployment insurance (I have done so in my job, but she did not for hers), and so any handout would be solely made up of taxes taken involuntarily from people, not anything we contributed to as part of insurance. Nor do we really need the money right now.

Then don’t use roads, as those are also paid for and maintained by “taxes taken involuntarily from people.”

If you are the victim of the crime, you should refuse any assistance by the state (e.g. going to the police), because the money they use is from “taxes taken involuntarily from people.”

 

[dochawk]

It’s problematic because some racist people are blaming China for the disease, as well asChinese-Americans or anyine who is Asian.

Yes, but they are grossly outnumbered by those blaming bad Mexican beer. (yes, seriously!).

You just can’t let the weakness of low voltage minds dictate language . . .

No, the actual designation of the virus is COVID-19.

No, “COVID-19” is the WHO’s designation for the Wuhan virus . . .

(and we could go back and forth like this for days . . )

The Chinese American I have seen being attacked on FaceBook for saying “Chinese virus” was criticizing the Chinese Communist Party and them trying to attribute the disease to the US. Nothing to do with Chinese people as a whole.

And in that context, it is actually desirable. (but then, I think “commie” would be better than “Chinese” here, but . . .)

I’m referring to non-Asians using this term.

And when that becomes a criterion, it’s time to end the discussion, and use the term universally . . .

I am pretty sure Trump supporters would love the California border closed to keep Californians from moving to their states.

I’m a Nevadan.

I’ve wanted a wall on our western border for almost 30 years . . .

until the late 90s or so, we were able to assimilate Californians coming in, and turn them into Nevadans. And then they just started coming too fast, and mostly stayed Californians.

 

[dochawk]

Really? In the US the employee doesn’t pay employment insurance?

any payroll tax is paid entirely by the employee, regardless of who writes the check. The net costs to employer and employee are identical regardless of who we attribute it to. [ok, yes, I am an Economics Professor . . .]

Nothing theoretical about. Printing money devalues the dollar.

I was going to stay out of this, but . . .

That is a simplistic understatement, and presuming that has caused recessions.

It’s the effective money supply (which may be different at the same time and country for different purposes) that drives price level, not the number of green sheets of paper, or their electronic equivalent on balance sheets. The effective supply is, as suggested by @muthbuster1, many times larger than the base (the little green sheets of paper and such).

While Money and Banking is my favorite class to teach, I"m not actually a monetary economist. That said, they’re not all the way to black magic (like the bankruptcy law I practice to pay tuition), but in “weird” situations, like the present, it’s as much art as science.

They may well get it wrong, but not trying will definitely lead to disaster.

Money supply is needed for transactions. Things like restarting a factory require access to huge amounts.

If no policy measures are taken, the supply will plummet as money sits in accounts, and we get something far worse than inflation: deflation.

There is most definitely not a good, or certain, correct solution. Lack of access to capital, however, does things like leave factories that could have opened idle, and their workers at home.

 

[StudentMI]

Nope not wrong at all. Plus it’s your money anyway.

 

[Hightop]

It looks like some of the money will go to the cruise ship industry, which are based overseas to avoid paying US taxes and submitting to US regulations, they don’t seem to be bothered by it, and it’s unclear how much will go to help US employees of these companies.

I don’t think it’s bad or immoral for citizens to accept this help, your wife’s a taxpayer I would assume, and the money she and others receive will presumably be spent here, and help get our economy back on it’s feet, and many could probably use the help.

 

[strita]

to Alyosha1984:

1. Your initial question seems to be contradictory. Your wife doesn’t have to apply for unemployment compensation, if you and she are opposed to accepting that money. Likewise, you can run the stimulus check through the paper shredder if you so desire.
2. The financial responsibilities of your family seem to run in the other direction, towards needing all the money for which you are legally eligible.
3. The Congress has voted the money to prop up the economy, to save businesses and jobs. The U.S. has a lot of bitter experience with the Depression of the 1930’s and the backward glance at it shows that the government should have done something similar back then, to rev up the economy. It was a big blunder back then to NOT do that.
4. If you add up the amount of money you will receive from unemployment and from the stimulus, it will not be all that much. Based on your 2019 taxes for husband, wife, one child, your stimulus check should be something like $3900. Then, I’m not quite sure how much your wife would get as a part-time worker. I don’t even see $10,000 on the table here.
5. In economics class, there is something called the marginal propensity to consume. What that means is, start from $0 and go up $1 at a time. How much money would you spend and how much would you save? Well, the government is betting that you spend ALL the money you get to stimulate the economy. There is another economics conceot about how far a dollar goes. A long time ago, the idea was that it changed hands 7 times. Wherever you spend that dollar, the shop owner turns around and spends it on wages and other costs. That dollar goes farther than you realize when you spend it.
6. You live in an economy over which you have little control. You don’t control prices for the things you buy, to any great extent. Further, when the government borrows money, or here, just prints money with nothing behind it, like gold, it’s said that we are loaning the money to ourselves, because, in principle, we will pay that money back some time.
7. So, the economics view is unlike your own, that you are taking a handout, if that’s what bothers you.

In a just world, the national debt wouldn’t just keep rising forever without being paid back. But, whether you like it or not, you’re “on the bus” so you might as well enjoy the ride, because either way, your tax dollars will be paying back that money in taxes. As Catholics, perhaps our best action is to take the money that we get and pray for an end to the pandemic as soon as possible.

The higher level of responsibility is to do what we can to stop the spread of the pandemic, in the first place.

 

[mythbuster1]

Actually, your point about “money sitting idle” is a question of velocity (i.e. how many times the average dollar changes hands in a period of time). You are correct, though, that price level is a function of both monetary supply and velocity, and the assumption that velocity is constant is one that can bring ruin.

 

[dochawk]

Velocity is one of the factors; the actual modeling needs to be far more sophisticate. [roughly, the velocity of money is how many times a given measure cycles a year, so at a velocity of 4, for example, a $1M supply or base would support $8M in activity].

Including only the velocity for this is useful for a 101 level discussion, but not a professional economist . . .

Even in a multiplied (by whatever means) money supply, there is still the matter of access, speed of access, willingness to access, willingness to allow access, who bears the risk, and so many more . . . and it’s not the case that these factors are uniform across the entire supply (e.g., Joe’s Taco Shop and IBM have different ability to actually use the same claim on the supply).

[a few years ago in bankruptcy court, waiting for my case, I watched an attorney cite an article by “Markell, B” to argue with the judge on his point. “Counsel, do you understand who ‘Markell, B’ is???” asked judge Bruce Markell . . . (as the rest of us laughed)]

 

[on_the_hill]

Today I saw it as SARS-CoV-2

 

[Phemie]

Phemie:

Really? In the US the employee doesn’t pay employment insurance?

any payroll tax is paid entirely by the employee, regardless of who writes the check. The net costs to employer and employee are identical regardless of who we attribute it to. [ok, yes, I am an Economics . . .]

First I did bookkeeping online in my spare time for no other reason than because I wanted to understand how to read a balance sheet, now I’m going to have to take an economics course to understand your statement. Do you do online courses?