Is it immoral to take gov't unemployment money we didn't pay for?

[dochawk]

:crazy_face:

Yes, that was the intro to the first lesson


In short, it’s that who the tax is assessed upon doesn’t affect who really pays it.

For example, consider a wage of $100, and we “require” the employer to pay $5 tax.

The employee sees this as no different than if he were paid $105, and had to pay $5 in payroll taxes–and neither does the employer! In either case, the employer sees a cost of $105, and the employee sees $100. The same number of people are hired, the employer pays the same amount, and the employee sees the same amount, regardless of who sends the $5 to the government.

The same thing happens with other taxes. Most notably, SS is a 15% tax, and pretending that it’s a tax on the employer that the employee doesn’t pay is pure fiction–the employee could command a higher wage in exactly that amount.

 

[Phemie]

:crazy_face:

Yes, that was the intro to the first lesson


In short, it’s that who the tax is assessed upon doesn’t affect who really pays it.

For example, consider a wage of $100, and we “require” the employer to pay $5 tax.

The employee sees this as no different than if he were paid $105, and had to pay $5 in payroll taxes–and neither does the employer! In either case, the employer sees a cost of $105, and the employee sees $100. The same number of people are hired, the employer pays the same amount, and the employee sees the same amount, regardless of who sends the $5 to the government.

The same thing happens with other taxes. Most notably, SS is a 15% tax, and pretending that it’s a tax on the employer that the employee doesn’t pay is pure fiction–the employee could command a higher wage in exactly that amount.

OK, I get what you’re saying, My wages might be 34 cents per hour higher if my employer didn’t have to pay $13.47 EI to the gov’t for each 40 hours that I work. And even higher if there was no need to pay $32.20 to the CPP for the same amount of time.

I work for an arts organization where I once refused a raise because I write the cheques and I didn’t think they could afford it. I know, I’m weird.

 

[nafatyuk]

I am so sick and exasperated by arguments concerning the name of the virus. It’s a waste of energy that could be spent on much more productive enterprises. It seems that the vast majority of the public has settled on either “coronavirus” or “COVID-19” as a designation. If you choose to use a different appellation, go right ahead. I personally think that it’s pointless and a waste of time and breath to intractably insist on a certain name, of all things, but you do you. The controversy over this distracts from more pressing issues, namely, the actual pandemic going on. We can battle the commies and assign responsibility and blame once we’ve recovered; now is not exactly the best time as the Western World is greatly weakened at the moment.

TL;DR: It’s not racist to call it the “Chinese Virus”, it’s just pointless and comes at an inopportune time.

 

[otjm]

Both of us have a visceral reaction against accepting government handouts,

This is not a “government handout”.

What a whole lot of people never stop to consider is what is the owner’s cost of an employee. It not only amount to what is in your “paycheck”, but it also includes an approcimately equal amount of Social Security payment; ;and it includes the payment of any Federal, State, and other jurisdiction taxes which may be based on salary;.

The employer also pays a payroll tax, which is the source of unemployment benefits; as part of the cost of hiring you.

And in addition to that, the employer pays for Workers Compensation costs, insurance if you are injured on the job.

And if there is anything else, such as a pension (as opposed to a 401K), they are paying in on that; and with the 401K they may also be contributing up to a certain amount, depending on your contribution.

That is not a government handout; it is a tax which has been paid since the first check you got from the employer.

I respect your desire not to take a “handout”. But what the government may pay you after the loss of a job is not a handout; it has a beginning and an end (which sometimes gets extended) and is calculated based on what your pay rate was.

You may feel she did not pay “her fair share” - her employer paid it - but it was calculated on an actuarial basis of all employees paid at her rate.

In short, you are completely overthinking this. There is no morality issue in the matter.

 

[Bithynian]

I’m Chinese(-Australian), and it’s worth noting that most Chinese-language media and other literature still refers to the virus as the “Wuhan virus”. For some reason or another, COVID-19 hasn’t entered into widespread use (unlike, say, SARS).

 

[pnewton]

Are only Asians allowed to callout China?

Call out? Here is good evidence that this name is not just used as a designation of origin. There is too much of human nature to pin blame in the face of disasters. So, while Wuhan and China may simply be a designation of origin, it is clear even here that this is also a “calling out.” History may well remember it as the American virus anyway, at the rate it is spreading in the United States. Of course, there will be plenty of blame for that as well because that is what we do.

Personally, I will stick with the original Wuhan, or the inexact Corona. If I am going to call out anyone, it will be Corona for making what they call beer. (blech)

 

[TMC]

I will also continue calling the 1918 pandemic the Spanish flu.

Actually, the 1918 flu originated in the US, probably Kansas.

The issue with calling the current pandemic “Chinese” is not geographical accuracy, its the attempt by some to use the name to cast blame and aspersion, and by other to spread hate and intolerance. While you may intend neither, it is important to consider the impact of our choices on others.

 

[dochawk]

OK, I get what you’re saying, My wages might be 34 cents per hour higher if my employer didn’t have to pay $13.47 EI to the gov’t for each 40 hours that I work. And even higher if there was no need to pay $32.20 to the CPP for the same amount of time.

exactly: both worker and employer base behavior on the net price they see, rather than how it is labeled.

And for the next level : taxes on businesses are passed straight through to the customer (whether consumer, another business, or government). That is, a business sees no difference between paying $100 for widgets, labor, or tax; in each case, it’s an (name removed by moderator)ut that must be paid if it’s going to produce, and comes out (with some extra addition for financing, etc.) in the price.

It’s a waste of energy that could be spent on much more productive enterprises

Unfortunately, it’s more than that. Once it was raised under the phony “racist” charge, it became the current frontline for attempts to control thought with Newspeak, making it important to resist it for that reason . . .

 

[jack63]

Like others have said, when a company hires an employee, they a payroll tax. By not taking unemployment you are short changing yourself. The unemployment insurance has already been paid for.

The other option was simply to take a job as a contractor or consultant. Many people prefer this…and many times it is for very good reasons.

I see no morality issue here. It is simply a choice and an agreement between you and your employer about the arrangement under which you work.

 

[oldgraymare2]

Unemployment is considered taxable income at income tax time.

 

[oldgraymare2]

Thank you for explaining the business end of this so very well.

Many people are mistaken in how all of this works, especially thinking that the employee pays into unemployment when it is the employer who does.

 

[LilyM]

Alyosha1984:

I feel it is immoral to take this government money because she did not pay any meaningful amount of unemployment insurance

If your car were totaled, would you turn down payment in the amount in excess of your premiums?

The vary nature of insurance is that sometimes you pay in and receive nothing, while other times you receive back significantly more than you paid in. The point is to reduce the risk, not a windfall either way. [cue that simpsons episode where Flanders house burned down and he had now insurance because he thought of it as gambling . . .]

Unemployment insurance just isn’t a handout.

Edit: And Fauken is right. Please don’t call it the Chinese virus. China didn’t invent COVID-19 or use it against us: they’re victims of the pandemic like everyone else.

No he isn’t: this is the first time that naming the outbreak for the point of origination has been claimed to vilify the origin (E.g., the Spanish Flu).

In this case, either “Wuhan” or “Chinese” are an accurate adjective consistent with longstanding practice.

That said, my preference is the “Callous Chinese Communist Party virus”, to recognize the critical role the callousness and contempt for human life of the communist party’s suppression of information, denial of outbreak, and refusal of access to the world’s experts played in the spread . . . And as a bonus, the abbreviation is the appropriate CCCP

Problem is that plenty of other governments than the Chinese are also highly culpable in terms of doing far too little far too late, and hesitating to take decisive action that could have saved lives for fear of economic repercussions, which IMHO is reprehensible.

 

[LiveSkype]

Also Yoga is apparently not Catholic so I’d be more concerned about taking money from a practice that will (unlike recieving unemployment benefit) may actually lead others down a sinful path away from Jesus and ultimately lead them away from Salvation.

Yes, THIS! It’s actually Hindu, as there’s a whole philosophy behind the moves.

 

[Lea101]

Because Trump said it, therefore, it’s racist.

Because while he and some people think Chinese Virus = the country, many people are seeing it as race.

The whole Wuhan Virus thing led to a bunch of Asians being mistreated and even assaulted in some cases, so given this context, calling it the Chinese virus adds fuel to the fire.

 

[C.Ray]

History may well remember it as the American virus anyway

If the Chicoms have their way, and with thanks to useful idiots in America, it will.

 

[Socrates92]

Don’t worry, they’ll tax it back from you at some point.

 

[dochawk]

Problem is that plenty of other governments than the Chinese are also highly culpable in terms of doing far too little far too late, and hesitating to take decisive action that could have saved lives for fear of economic repercussions, which IMHO is reprehensible.

Oh, I’m not letting them off the hook.

However, there’s a difference between poor decisions, and deliberately withholding life and death information.

And that act of evil meant that every other government in the world lacked information that might have led to better decisions.

Because while he and some people think Chinese Virus = the country, many people are seeing it as race.

Almost anything can lead to idiotic conclusions from the ignorant . . . we could ban Mickey Mouse (or Winnie the Pooh ) cartoons if we need to avoid such things.

 

[Socrates92]

we could ban Mickey Mouse (or Winnie the Pooh ) cartoons

Please no, those Winnie the Pooh memes are the best…

 

[Lea101]

Almost anything can lead to idiotic conclusions from the ignorant

Except it isn’t a stretch to make that conclusion. Most people will think of race when they hear Chinese, and we’re seeing a lot of Asians report bullying or assault despite not being in Chinese government.

If trump desperately wants to attack China, he could just say Chinese-manufactured virus if he so desires. As a leader you would have to understand the implications of your words

 

[dochawk]

By this standard, we should have stayed out of the twentieth century wars not because they were not the right thing to do, but because idiots would take it out on Germans, Italians, etc.

If trump desperately wants to attack China, he could just say Chinese-manufactured virus if he so desires.

I’m trying to find something short of “nuts” to describe that, but failing.

I am not a trump fan, but suggesting that treating this the same way we have historically treated things shows “desperately wants to attack” makes no sense–even without the extreme culpability of the Chinese government in covering this thing up and endangering the rest of the world. Also without considering the considerable resources being used in by that evil, totality into to deflect the world from the notion . . .

(that said, I’m starting to like “Chicom virus” even more than CCCP flu . . .")