Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Amandil]

Yes, I see a contradiction.
If God loves me more than I do my own children, then there is nothing that they can do that will keep me from wanting them with me.

So you essentially would destroy their natures and rob them of their freedom just so you v ould feel better about yourself.

IOW, you’d be a “benevolent tyrant”.

OneSheep:

If God is omnipotent, there is nothing he cannot do in terms of life after death, including showing people who He is, and really explaining to us in very real ways the prevalence of His being and His love.

And you’re ignoring the fact that there are many who simply won’t listen or won’t care, just like they neither listen nor care now.

OneSheep:

Would I let my child eat a poison mushroom, even after explaining that it would kill him? Absolutely not. The child has a death-wish for some reason, and that reason needs to be worked through.

And what if the your child refuses to listen and eats the mushrooms anyway?

Your problem is that you think that people are always rational. You have this “enlightened” idealistic view that just so long as someone has things explained to them fully and reasonably, that they’ll automatically just do the right thing.

If nothing else my previous conversation with you cannot be anything else but the very proof that disproves your theory.

More often than not it simply doesn’t matter what a person knows, they’re going to choose to do what they want, believe what they want.

You and Arte are perfect examples of this.

OneSheep:

I think it is fairly obvious, by now, that many respondents do not see a contradiction.

Because there is none, except in your imagination.

OneSheep:

1. Many people would indeed send their own child away forever for a number of reasons, and would never let them come back. They are limited by their own experiences, like we all are, and cannot imagine God behaving differently. These people need to be shown what love means.
2. Others see a contradiction, but the CCC and assertions of Church infallibility give them a great deal of security, and change is frightening. If revelation actually changes what the Church teaches, these individuals may have their faith shaken to the roots.
3. Others cannot fathom God forgiving certain people, and they want those people to be punished forever.
4. Others still can imagine God forgiving, but cannot imagine certain people ever repenting. This comes down to anthropology, psychology, self-awareness. Can I ever change my mind? Can I ever be influenced? Those who very stubbornly insist on anything, will not change their mind for any reason whatsoever, will have a lot of trouble imagining that anyone else will either. This, again, is a matter of projection. If I am under the thinking “I will never change my mind.” then I am enslaved by the thinking that no one else can either.
5. Others are so focused on the “justice” aspect of hell that they cannot imagine some people not being punished forever. Again, this is a forgiveness issue, but some people have a lot of trouble forgiving those that do the greatest evil in our world.

Now who’s projecting?

OneSheep:

What I am saying is that there is a place in the Church for all of the examples I gave, and there are as many others examples as there are people who believe in God not relenting.

No, it boils down to one group standing with the Church and Sacred Tradition and conforming to the will of God and another group who refuses to.

I suggest that you read Scripture about the rebellion of the Korahites against Moses.

OneSheep:

Every one of us has a journey, and every one of us is in a different place and sees God in a slightly different way. We can all come to the table together as a family, albeit a family that has different perceptions.

Martin Luther had “different perceptions”. So did the priest Arius.

OneSheep:

We can present our views and maybe others will listen, maybe not. If someone says “if you say this, you are not Catholic” it is time to let that person be. Their desire to exclude someone is their choice. I encourage everyone, though, to be inclusive. There are issues much more important today than what happens to us after we die.

“…not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom of God.”

“…if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector.”(Matt 18:17).

 

[OneSheep]

It’s as if the Church to some on here has got it all wrong.

Hi Mark. I appreciate your reverence for Our Lady, and I respect your point of view. You are not “wrong”, and neither is the Church. The teachings on hell reflect a very real aspect of our own spirituality. We experience hell. We defy God, (though ignorantly). Our consciences condemn us, we feel guilt sometimes. Our consciences reward us, we feel a sense of righteousness sometimes.

What is being investigated here is whether or not God would let someone out of hell. In order for an infinitely loving God to not let a human (with a will) out of hell, if the human so desires, one of the following would have to be true:

1. God does not have the power to let people out of hell.
2. God does not have the will to let people out of hell.
3. There is some other reason beyond the grasp of the ordinary human.

If number 3 is the case, then we all must expect that people are going to continue to try to make sense of it all. I have a feeling this is not a new discussion in the Church.

If number 2 is correct, then the image of an infinitely loving God is compromised.

If number 1 is correct, then image of an omnipotent God is compromised.

So, do you see why people find it a struggle to make sense of hell?

 

[Amandil]

Hi Mark. I appreciate your reverence for Our Lady, and I respect your point of view. You are not “wrong”, and neither is the Church. The teachings on hell reflect a very real aspect of our own spirituality. We experience hell. We defy God, (though ignorantly). Our consciences condemn us, we feel guilt sometimes. Our consciences reward us, we feel a sense of righteousness sometimes.

What is being investigated here is whether or not God would let someone out of hell. In order for an infinitely loving God to not let a human (with a will) out of hell, if the human so desires, one of the following would have to be true:

1. God does not have the power to let people out of hell.
2. God does not have the will to let people out of hell.
3. There is some other reason beyond the grasp of the ordinary human.

If number 3 is the case, then we all must expect that people are going to continue to try to make sense of it all. I have a feeling this is not a new discussion in the Church.

If number 2 is correct, then the image of an infinitely loving God is compromised.

If number 1 is correct, then image of an omnipotent God is compromised.

So, do you see why people find it a struggle to make sense of hell?

There’s a huge difference between an actual contradiction and the fact that you’re committing category errors and the modal fallacy.

 

[Mark121359]

What is being investigated here is whether or not God would let someone out of hell.

This is nothing but pure speculation! And I would say that nowhere can you point to Catholic theologians, Popes or what have you even talking about this “speculation.” That’s because it’s so outside of in keeping with what the Church teaches. It would be like speculating with other Christians about the Real Presence. Why do it? We Catholics know the revealed truth. Yeah, there are some theologians, Hans Urs von Balthasar comes to mind who have speculated that hell might be empty. But he was careful to describe his opinion that Hell might be empty as merely a hope, his hope, and not what the Church actually teaches. And this “hope” has been rejected by most Catholic theologians. Also the Church Fathers, from the very earliest times, were unanimous in teaching that the wicked will be punished after death, and that it will be eternal. The Holy Bible is crystal clear in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10, Matthew 25:46, Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47 just to name a few. And what to make of what Jesus said of Judas?.. *"The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! ***It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” **** Matthew 26:24. Look, no one can say how “populated” hell is. But we can darn sure trust the Catholic Church and her teachings. And she has always taught that the fires of hell is eternal, everlasting, unquenchable, forever and ever…final!

Peace, Mark

 

[glendab]

Hello Mark.

If my parish Priest were telling me the things listed in the above post, I would be searching for another parish…***pronto! ***This is so common today. Especially here in the U.S. Mother Angelica used to go on and on about wayward priests on a weekly basis on her “Live” show… Recently, I was listening to EWTN radio’s Open- Line show. The host John Martignoni, was answering a caller whose liberal parish priest was giving them “flawed” teachings. Martignoni said that many priests completely ignore Church teachings and give their “liberal” perspective instead of Church doctrine. What he said next caught my attention. He said that when these priests do this, ***“it’s as if they were pouring acid on their parishioners souls.” ***And he also said that these priests will indeed pay a heavy price for doing this. A Catholic co-worker of mine supports SSM, homosexuality, contraception, women priests and the like. I asked him to talk to his pastor about his views. He told me that he has…and that his pastor completely agrees with him! Again, this is so common. That’s why poor catechesis is so detrimental to the Catholic Faith. If you don’t know even the basics of the Faith, it becomes way too easy to swallow this poison. Me personally, I’m always thirsting for more knowledge.

Peace, Mark

Yippie! Bravo! Great post! Onward Christian soldiers!

:clapping:

:knight2:

Glenda

 

[powerofk]

Hi Mark. I appreciate your reverence for Our Lady, and I respect your point of view. You are not “wrong”, and neither is the Church. The teachings on hell reflect a very real aspect of our own spirituality. We experience hell. We defy God, (though ignorantly). Our consciences condemn us, we feel guilt sometimes. Our consciences reward us, we feel a sense of righteousness sometimes.

What is being investigated here is whether or not God would let someone out of hell. In order for an infinitely loving God to not let a human (with a will) out of hell, if the human so desires, one of the following would have to be true:

1. God does not have the power to let people out of hell.
2. God does not have the will to let people out of hell.
3. There is some other reason beyond the grasp of the ordinary human.

If number 3 is the case, then we all must expect that people are going to continue to try to make sense of it all. I have a feeling this is not a new discussion in the Church.

If number 2 is correct, then the image of an infinitely loving God is compromised.

If number 1 is correct, then image of an omnipotent God is compromised.

So, do you see why people find it a struggle to make sense of hell?

But, see, here’s the thing - the people in Hell actually DON’T WANT OUT! Sure, they want to be free of the physical torture, but they want to remain in their sins and do not want to be with God. God does have the power (and actually the will) to let people out of Hell. In fact, the gates of Hell might always be open so that the people could leave Hell if they so wished. Who knows. But… those in Hell wish to remain there. They refuse to repent - because they had permanently and completely hardened their hearts to God’s Love by the time of their death. Prayers for those who have died and gone to Hell are ineffectual, because they have totally and completely rejected God’s Love in their hearts. They have turned their hearts to stone.

But, we as Catholics cannot pretend to know the depths of the hearts of others. Only God can. This is why we pray for the souls of all - living and dead. We pray that God helps those who are living in mortal sin to realize the error of their ways and turn back to Him. And we pray for those who have died, in the hope that they died in God’s friendship, so they may be admitted into Heaven.

So, the question isn’t whether Hell exists, or whether God has the power to release those in Hell - it’s the following:
“Why would anyone not want to be with God?”

In addition, we must ask ourselves the following questions continuously:
“Is love for God supreme in my life?
Or is my love self-centered?
Do I love my neighbor as myself?
Or do I love my neighbor only as much as it meets my own selfish desires?
Am I truly accepting God’s Love into my life?
Am I sharing God’s Love with others?
Or am I, a person who professes what the Church teaches, pushing people away from God by unloving words and actions?”

Because it is the answers to these questions which will determine whether we are accepted into Heaven or whether we condemn ourselves to Hell.

 

[OneSheep]

But, see, here’s the thing - the people in Hell actually DON’T WANT OUT!

Yes, that is the qualifier I gave, “If they so desire to leave”.

Sure, they want to be free of the physical torture, but they want to remain in their sins and do not want to be with God. God does have the power (and actually the will) to let people out of Hell. In fact, the gates of Hell might always be open so that the people could leave Hell if they so wished. Who knows. But… those in Hell wish to remain there. They refuse to repent - because they had permanently and completely hardened their hearts to God’s Love by the time of their death. Prayers for those who have died and gone to Hell are ineffectual, because they have totally and completely rejected God’s Love in their hearts. They have turned their hearts to stone.

Yes, your point of view makes sense, at least in theory. In my experience, though, there are no people who have intentionally hardened their hearts to God’s love. If they do so, they do so without knowing what they doing, as Jesus accurately assessed from the cross. Isn’t the part about the prayers speculative? Well, I suppose it is all speculative. People do not reject God if they know God.

For example, a few people have possibly “rejected” others as a result of what they have speculated on this thread. Are their hearts hardened, or do they remain open-minded? Personally, I remain open-minded to seeing God’s love in everyone, and my eyes are never wrong in that respect. I see the love of God in everyone. If people reject a person, versus what they have said, then it is because they do not know the person. I am quite certain of that.

But, we as Catholics cannot pretend to know the depths of the hearts of others. Only God can. This is why we pray for the souls of all - living and dead. We pray that God helps those who are living in mortal sin to realize the error of their ways and turn back to Him. And we pray for those who have died, in the hope that they died in God’s friendship, so they may be admitted into Heaven.

So, the question isn’t whether Hell exists, or whether God has the power to release those in Hell - it’s the following:
“Why would anyone not want to be with God?”

Great question!
My answer: People do not want to be with God if He is perceived as vengeful, unforgiving, unmerciful, impertinent, and many other aspects that He is not.

In addition, we must ask ourselves the following questions continuously:
“Is love for God supreme in my life?
Or is my love self-centered?
Do I love my neighbor as myself?
Or do I love my neighbor only as much as it meets my own selfish desires?
Am I truly accepting God’s Love into my life?
Am I sharing God’s Love with others?
Or am I, a person who professes what the Church teaches, pushing people away from God by unloving words and actions?”

More great questions! Thanks!

Because it is the answers to these questions which will determine whether we are accepted into Heaven or whether we condemn ourselves to Hell.

“Accepted” and “condemning ourselves to hell” goes back to language that takes the choice out of it, maybe. God loves everyone, and forgiveness is an act of love. Therefore, to me, God forgives everyone and “acceptance” is not an issue. Choice, however, is an issue, and like you said, people may not want out. I can’t see how it could happen, but I remain open to the possibility. Here is another question: is God the prodigal son’s father, waiting for people to come back? Or does he take the initiative to draw people toward Him, even those who are “hard-hearted”?

It took a lot of initiative for Word to become Man, did it not?

 

[OneSheep]

This is nothing but pure speculation! And I would say that nowhere can you point to Catholic theologians, Popes or what have you even talking about this “speculation.” That’s because it’s so outside of in keeping with what the Church teaches. It would be like speculating with other Christians about the Real Presence. Why do it? We Catholics know the revealed truth. Yeah, there are some theologians, Hans Urs von Balthasar comes to mind who have speculated that hell might be empty. But he was careful to describe his opinion that Hell might be empty as merely a hope, his hope, and not what the Church actually teaches. And this “hope” has been rejected by most Catholic theologians. Also the Church Fathers, from the very earliest times, were unanimous in teaching that the wicked will be punished after death, and that it will be eternal. The Holy Bible is crystal clear in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10, Matthew 25:46, Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47 just to name a few. And what to make of what Jesus said of Judas?.. *"The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! ***It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” **** Matthew 26:24. Look, no one can say how “populated” hell is. But we can darn sure trust the Catholic Church and her teachings. And she has always taught that the fires of hell is eternal, everlasting, unquenchable, forever and ever…final!

Peace, Mark

Hi again; did you read my whole post Mark?

You are obviously well-read on the topic. Good for you!

I am wondering if you can see why many people have trouble making sense out of hell, based on my last post to you. I am not asking if you share the “trouble making sense” part, I am only asking if you understand why some people have so much difficulty with this aspect of doctrine.

Can you understand the struggle, even though you do not share the struggle? Can you empathize with them, even though it is not your difficulty?

Following this, our next decision is how one responds to others who struggle with the question. I think we can learn a lot from “If someone asks for your shirt, hand them your cloak as well” or however it goes. If we are listening carefully, we can discern what a person is thinking, feeling, wanting, and requesting.

For example, am I hearing from you that you request that we should all not question, but unconditionally accept what the Church teaches? I think this is what I am hearing. Are you feeling a bit disappointed in those who do not do this? Are you seeking like-mindedness from everyone? These are all quite understandable, if this is the case.

Thanks for your response, Mark. Peace be with you too!

 

[rinnie]

Thanks!

So, in your observation there are people who are “indeed evil”. Of this too, I fail to find an example. Can you provide one? Yes, there are people who want to hurt others, and want nothing to do with God. These individuals are lacking awareness and/or are blind.

I also fail to find anyone who never wants to change when change is called for. God made us capable of adapting to situations when necessary. Everyone, eventually, can change their ways and their outlook, given pertinent experience and enlightenment.

I can pray that they see the light. I can pray for their well-being and the well-being of their loved ones. So, keep in mind that I am coming from the perspective that every single individual is capable of seeing the light.

However, it does make sense that hell is a place for people who will never want God, and God would indeed know that. Is there such a person, though? The question calls for an “anthropodicy” (a word I think coined by Beth Johnson). What is the human capable of? Why does he do hurtful acts? etc. etc.

Bottom line: If you are thinking that the only people in hell are the ones who would “never repent”, then it makes sense that they would prefer to stay there. In that case, the question on this thread makes a false assumption, that people are in hell because God does not relent. God “relenting” has nothing to do with it, it is that some people, in that view, will never come to see God’s goodness. I don’t see that. We see people differently, I think.

Me too!

Sure the example right of the bat would be of course the devil. The devil also has people who choose to follow him instead of God.

How can you not see people that reject God? You read the bible right? Do you believe what God teaches and says?

Then if you are correct what is God saying when he says this?

John 8 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot BEAR to HEAR MY word. WHY??

Because You belong to YOUR father the DEVIL, and you WILLINGLY carry out HIS desires…

Read John chapter 8 its quite clear.

Jesus says in black and white Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God, for this reason YOU do not LISTEN because you DO NOT belong to God.

And you are right, The thread is a false. But it should read God will not relent, not cannot relent.

God can do whatever he wants whenever. But God made it clear, if someone goes to hell, it is their choice not his.

What people try to do, is blame God for someone using their own free will to reject him. IT makes no sense.

If God gives you free will to be with him, or choose to be separated without him, how can he force them, and not take away their free will?

As I stated earlier, God knows everything if a person wants him, or NEVER will. That is why he is God, He makes no mistakes. NEVER EVER!

So you would say the Jesus was wrong to say the people in the scripture they do not belong to God?? If not would you say they are in heaven? If so then how do you get your teaching and where do you get it? Because the word of God says they won’t listen to God.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, that is the qualifier I gave, “If they so desire to leave”.

Yes, your point of view makes sense, at least in theory. In my experience, though, there are no people who have intentionally hardened their hearts to God’s love. If they do so, they do so without knowing what they doing, as Jesus accurately assessed from the cross. Isn’t the part about the prayers speculative? Well, I suppose it is all speculative. People do not reject God if they know God.

For example, a few people have possibly “rejected” others as a result of what they have speculated on this thread. Are their hearts hardened, or do they remain open-minded? Personally, I remain open-minded to seeing God’s love in everyone, and my eyes are never wrong in that respect. I see the love of God in everyone. If people reject a person, versus what they have said, then it is because they do not know the person. I am quite certain of that.

Great question!
My answer: People do not want to be with God if He is perceived as vengeful, unforgiving, unmerciful, impertinent, and many other aspects that He is not.

More great questions! Thanks!

“Accepted” and “condemning ourselves to hell” goes back to language that takes the choice out of it, maybe. God loves everyone, and forgiveness is an act of love. Therefore, to me, God forgives everyone and “acceptance” is not an issue. Choice, however, is an issue, and like you said, people may not want out. I can’t see how it could happen, but I remain open to the possibility. Here is another question: is God the prodigal son’s father, waiting for people to come back? Or does he take the initiative to draw people toward Him, even those who are “hard-hearted”?

It took a lot of initiative for Word to become Man, did it not?

Where did the Prodigal Son ever reject God? The prodigal son made a mistake, and his Father prayed that he would repent and come back. He did!

If you are trying to say it hurt God when people he loves reject him sure, I agree with that. But do you not know that is why the devil wants us, to hurt God.

No one ever said we cannot hurt God by rejecting him. God loves us all. Rather we reject or accept him. Sure God hates to see people he loves reject and not want him, he made us. But he also accepts our decisions.

And I disagree with you, in the scripture, even seeing Jesus face to face, they CHOOSE to throw stones at him. Read the scripture.

 

[rinnie]

Hi again; did you read my whole post Mark?

You are obviously well-read on the topic. Good for you!

I am wondering if you can see why many people have trouble making sense out of hell, based on my last post to you. I am not asking if you share the “trouble making sense” part, I am only asking if you understand why some people have so much difficulty with this aspect of doctrine.

Can you understand the struggle, even though you do not share the struggle? Can you empathize with them, even though it is not your difficulty?

Following this, our next decision is how one responds to others who struggle with the question. I think we can learn a lot from “If someone asks for your shirt, hand them your cloak as well” or however it goes. If we are listening carefully, we can discern what a person is thinking, feeling, wanting, and requesting.

For example, am I hearing from you that you request that we should all not question, but unconditionally accept what the Church teaches? I think this is what I am hearing. Are you feeling a bit disappointed in those who do not do this? Are you seeking like-mindedness from everyone? These are all quite understandable, if this is the case.

Thanks for your response, Mark. Peace be with you too!

I have a problem with a Catholic not accepting what the Church teaches yes. Really anyone, that truly knows the word of God. Simply for this reason.

Jesus said I am sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit to TEACH and Lead you. Jesus said the Church is the Pilar of all truth.

Jesus said to Peter I give to you the keys to the kingdom what you bound is bound loose is loosed.

He said that the Church will prevail. Peter led the Roman Catholic Church. No one will deny this. Jesus said the Church is the Pilar of all truth and is led by the Holy Spirit.

The Pope has the keys to the kingdom and leads the RCC. Jesus said hades will not prevail and the Holy Spirit will lead the Church until the end of age, anotherwards until he comes back.

So how could a Catholic reject what the Church teaches when Jesus promised us, he would not leave us orphans.

To say the RCC is not led by the Holy Spirit and is still leading us, means Jesus left us orphans, and he did not send the Holy Spirit until he returns. I cannot accept this, and know my Jesus does not mislead me.

There was no other Church before the Catholic Church.

 

[OneSheep]

Thanks for responding rinnie! I will try to address as much as I can this morning. I may have to finish later on.

Sure the example right of the bat would be of course the devil. The devil also has people who choose to follow him instead of God.

The devil has never been described as a “person”, though. Can you come up with an example of a “wicked person”?

How can you not see people that reject God? You read the bible right? Do you believe what God teaches and says?

Yes, people reject God. They do so without knowing what they are doing, in my observation.

Then if you are correct what is God saying when he says this?

John 8 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot BEAR to HEAR MY word. WHY??

Because You belong to YOUR father the DEVIL, and you WILLINGLY carry out HIS desires…

Read John chapter 8 its quite clear.

Jesus says in black and white Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God, for this reason YOU do not LISTEN because you DO NOT belong to God.

Thanks for pointing out John 8. We must remember that Jesus was addressing people who resented Him; they are seeing Him as blasphemous, they are repulsed by what they see as His speech against their tradition and what they see as right and good. I read the side comments in my Bible, and it says this about this section of John 8 :

“The truth that Jesus speaks of is not a doctrine which his followers should impose by force. Propagandists with arguments and biblical quotations are not needed, but witnesses who speak of their experience. Jesus says: The truth will make you free, and the Son will make you free. The believer who knows he is loved by God and consequently endeavors to be authentic is already in the truth…”

In my assessment, Rinnie, we are both described in that last sentence.

And you are right, The thread is a false. But it should read God will not relent, not cannot relent.

God can do whatever he wants whenever. But God made it clear, if someone goes to hell, it is their choice not his.

What people try to do, is blame God for someone using their own free will to reject him. IT makes no sense.

If God gives you free will to be with him, or choose to be separated without him, how can he force them, and not take away their free will?

As I stated earlier, God knows everything if a person wants him, or NEVER will. That is why he is God, He makes no mistakes. NEVER EVER!

Excellent points. I am confused by the “will not relent” part, because it is not a matter of God relenting, it would only be a matter of the individual repenting. And yes, our omniscient Father would indeed know if a person would never repent. The difference, perhaps, (if there is one) between us in this section refers to the investigation earlier in my post here, it has to do with the way we see people. In my view, people are capable of change, all people. I just cannot think of a scenario where a person who understands and appreciates who God is will reject Him, as is the discussion on the other thread. Perhaps you could think of such a scenario, but it would be more pertinent to the “knowing and willing” thread.

So you would say the Jesus was wrong to say the people in the scripture they do not belong to God?? If not would you say they are in heaven? If so then how do you get your teaching and where do you get it? Because the word of God says they won’t listen to God.

I am going to stay with the comments from my Bible I quoted above, which is the Catholic Pastoral Edition. Jesus was addressing people who condemned Him, just as the crowd at the crucifixion condemned Him. Jesus said “Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” I think Abba does indeed forgive everyone. He loves everyone.

The people Jesus was addressing were enslaved by their own righteous indignation, they were enslaved by the grudge-holding, blinded by resentment; they could not forgive. Jesus sets the final example from the cross.

 

[simpleas]

Until your post, I was unknowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church in my non belief in Hell. I am now knowingly rejecting the infallibility of the Catholic Church on this one issue and no others. I have spoken to my Priest about my disbelief in Hell. He lent me a book titled “Good Goats – Healing our image of God” by Catholic authors Dennis Linn, Sheila Fabricant Linn and Matthew Linn. This book clearly states that there is no-one in Hell and that Hell does not exist. Therefore, I was left with no illusions as to where my Priest’s belief in Hell lay.

Do you see it as fair justice that the vast majority of mankind including children should be tortured 24/7 for eternity? Do you also see it as fair justice that a soul with 1 mortal sin should undergo the same sentence? All this from an omnipotent being who we are told loves us far more than we can love our own children. Also, He can show far more mercy than we can to our own children. Can’t you see a contradiction here somewhere?

Please see this link which supports my case that some Christian organisations use the fear of Hell to evangelise. It is absolutely despicable.
biblerays.com/letter-from-hell.html

I can remember when it was a mortal sin to miss mass on a Sunday. One Sunday as a young child, I went to the beach for the day with a Catholic family who didn’t go to mass as often as we did. On the journey home, I was petrified that we would have an accident because if I was killed, I would go straight to Hell. I am a Returned Catholic and was told by my Priest that it is no longer a mortal sin to miss mass on a Sunday. One day on a Friday, my mother gave me a sausage roll with the meat scraped out. I was in a school where half the teachers were Catholic Brothers. I told Brother Luke who set up a confession with a priest because my act could be a mortal sin. We were having a mass in the afternoon and I wanted to have Holy Communion. Nowadays, we only abstain from eating meat on Fridays during Lent. What I am saying here is that our Church changes laws that were once said to be infallible. However, the change in Church Laws is not retrospective. In other words people who disobeyed the above laws when they were current and died before confessing them are in Hell. I could be totally wrong in this paragraph and if I am, I’m sure that someone will tell me. This is the great thing about being a member of this forum.

I know one priest that always says about how meat can be eaten on holy days that fall on a friday, and that if we miss mass on sundays or holy days its a mortal sin. Although he doesn’t say often about mortal sin, more about eating meat, but he does love his meat,so is always happy to tell us that it can be eaten (thats if a person is a meat eater in the first place!)

Then theres another priest, who will mention holy days, but I’ve yet to hear him say any thing about mortal sin if we miss mass etc, and he never says we need to obstain from meat on fridays.

I think it’s down to the priests what we learn, I never heard the faith spoken about to this degree by a priest. I wonder if the church sees a problem with the faithful thats important enough to do something about it, or is the church slowly changing with the times. And I mean slowly changing…because it will I think.

 

[OneSheep]

I have a problem with a Catholic not accepting what the Church teaches yes. Really anyone, that truly knows the word of God. Simply for this reason.

Jesus said I am sending the Advocate the Holy Spirit to TEACH and Lead you. Jesus said the Church is the Pilar of all truth.

So, let me hear your statement: You feeling some disappointment when you see writings that seem to defy the teachings. You want everyone to accept the Church’s teaching without question. You are asking for respect, reverence, order, and obedience. Now, pick the parts that I am wrong about in this paragraph and correct me, please. It was just a guess!

Jesus said to Peter I give to you the keys to the kingdom what you bound is bound loose is loosed.

Very interesting verse. I started a thread about it once. It was something like "Would God withhold forgiveness when we would not? It is an interesting question to work on.

He said that the Church will prevail. Peter led the Roman Catholic Church. No one will deny this. Jesus said the Church is the Pilar of all truth and is led by the Holy Spirit.

The Pope has the keys to the kingdom and leads the RCC. Jesus said hades will not prevail and the Holy Spirit will lead the Church until the end of age, anotherwards until he comes back.

So how could a Catholic reject what the Church teaches when Jesus promised us, he would not leave us orphans.

To say the RCC is not led by the Holy Spirit and is still leading us, means Jesus left us orphans, and he did not send the Holy Spirit until he returns. I cannot accept this, and know my Jesus does not mislead me.

There was no other Church before the Catholic Church.

Okay, now I am hearing a little distress in addition to the disappointment. All understandable. I am with you, the RCC is led by the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not leave us orphans. It is in ignorance that a person outright reject Church teachings, for all of them are inspired. Revelation, however, unfolds.

Some Church teachings, though inspired, contradict one another in the minds of humans, and they are in need of clarification. After all, they are written by humans. And, revelation is also found in creation, as said Aquinas, and we are learning more and more about creation through the use of sciences. The revelation of the sciences, especially psychology, neurology, and so forth provide new material to add to inspired doctrine.

Where did the Prodigal Son ever reject God? The prodigal son made a mistake, and his Father prayed that he would repent and come back. He did!

The prodigal son, in my view, was enslaved by sin. He was enslaved by his appetites. His father certainly did not recommend these actions. The father figure is God, right?

If you are trying to say it hurt God when people he loves reject him sure, I agree with that. But do you not know that is why the devil wants us, to hurt God.

Does it hurt God when people unwittingly reject him? Not the Abba I know.

No one ever said we cannot hurt God by rejecting him. God loves us all. Rather we reject or accept him. Sure God hates to see people he loves reject and not want him, he made us. But he also accepts our decisions.

And I disagree with you, in the scripture, even seeing Jesus face to face, they CHOOSE to throw stones at him. Read the scripture.

There is more to seeing than seeing face to face, right? In my observation, those people were blinded by resentment. They chose to throw stones at what they thought was evil, in my observation. What about you, what do you think was going on in their minds?

Thanks again for your responses. This is a great discussion!

 

[OneSheep]

I think it’s down to the priests what we learn, I never heard the faith spoken about to this degree by a priest. I wonder if the church sees a problem with the faithful thats important enough to do something about it, or is the church slowly changing with the times. And I mean slowly changing…because it will I think.

Change is scary for some people Simpleas! And that fear has to be respected and addressed gently, I think. I remember how much Vatican II shook me, it was like “there is nothing stable in the Church, it is a joke.” So, I turned to protestantism, and focused on the stability of the Bible.

However, even interpretation of the Bible changes over the years. Where is stability found? It is found in prayer, in forgiveness, in Love. It is found in relationship with God. When I was going after these external sources of stability, I was fairly rudderless.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Tom.

I think the reason you are drawing so much fire from Amandil and others, (rightly so BTW) in this thread it the simple fact you claim to be Catholic and yet you disbelieve basic truths of the Church and claim to have talked to God and had things “revealed” to you by Him and deviate from the Truths that the Catholic Church teaches in many ways. A person who actually met God would’ve behave this way. You anger those who like me, work at being faithful to the Church’s Magisterial teachings and have taken pains to learn what we are supposed to give our assent to. You clearly don’t. That is the reason you get taken to task so often. If you don’t believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches, change the religion you list yourself as. It gets tedious talking to you sometimes. I think this can be perceived as arrogance by some. So have patience with us Tom. We’re only trying to remain faithful and defend the Church.

Glenda

You wrote, that I “claim to have talked to God and had things “revealed” to you by Him”.

I have said that I “met”, Who is referred to as God the Father and that by meeting Him, I “knew” that what I was taught in second grade that “God Is Love” is quite literal and that God the Father did not say a word, as a matter fact, did not need to say a word.

I also said that I have met, Who is referred to as the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus and again, no words were used nor were they necessary.

I have never actually “conversed” with God but I have had “dreams” that I believe were either God or a representative of God and things have been said to me.

You are not the only one who have taken what I said about meeting God and thinking that meeting God and conversing with God as being the same.

God can communicate quite well without using words.

I would say that God sometimes gets much across without a word, I would also say that sometimes we can get something across to others without words.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Amandil

You wrote, “God affirms that hell exists and that it is eternal. You deny it.”

I have not denied that hell exists, as a matter of fact, I have said that I “know” that hell is real and that hell is custom built by its inhabitant and that I have experienced hell and that I do NOT believe for an instant that I have been thru worse than Jesus.

I have also said that I “believe” that Jesus went to everyone’s hell, this was/is the “work of the cross”, Jesus “paying the ransom”, so to speak, and as Jesus said on the cross, IT IS FINISHED, which translates as “Paid in Full”.

As far as hell being “eternal”, I am not saying one way or the other, but what I am saying is that “eternal” does not necessarily mean forever.

Just as "death is swallowed up in VICTORY, could be that ALL of the netherworld will be "swallowed up in VICTORY, a tie being absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

 

[Amandil]

Amandil

You wrote, “God affirms that hell exists and that it is eternal. You deny it.”

I have not denied that hell exists, as a matter of fact, I have said that I “know” that hell is real and that hell is custom built by its inhabitant and that I have experienced hell and that I do NOT believe for an instant that I have been thru worse than Jesus.

Hell is more than a “custom-built” experience.

You need to realize that what we currently know as “reality” is a pale shadow compared to the reality of eternity.

Which is why I reject your opinion that you have “experienced” hell strictly speaking. You may have experienced severe temporary spiritual and emotional pain, I’ll not deny that. But you obviously also experienced faith, hope, and love. Therefore it wasn’t hell.

There is no love, no faith, or any hope in hell.
Tom Baum:

I have also said that I “believe” that Jesus went to everyone’s hell, this was/is the “work of the cross”, Jesus “paying the ransom”, so to speak, and as Jesus said on the cross, IT IS FINISHED, which translates as “Paid in Full”.

Again that is REDEMPTION, not Salvation. REDEMPTION unconditional. Salvation is in fact CONDITIONAL.
Tom Baum:

As far as hell being “eternal”, I am not saying one way or the other, but what I am saying is that “eternal” does not necessarily mean forever.

“Forever” cannot be applied to eternity because “forever” is specifically related to temporal existence.

Eternity is PERMANENT. There is no change in eternity. Therefore whatever state a soul possesses when it transitions from temporal existence to eternity it will remain in that state foe eternity because it’s state is in fact PERMANENT.
Tom Baum:

Just as "death is swallowed up in VICTORY, could be that ALL of the netherworld will be "swallowed up in VICTORY, a tie being absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

The justice of hell is also VICTORY, not a “tie”.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I “know” that hell is real and that hell is custom built by its inhabitant and that I have experienced hell . . . As far as hell being “eternal”, I am not saying one way or the other, but what I am saying is that “eternal” does not necessarily mean forever. Just as "death is swallowed up in VICTORY, could be that ALL of the netherworld will be "swallowed up in VICTORY, a tie being absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

I would imagine that if you did experience hell, the only way out would have been through some sort of spiritual death, letting go of your self, surrendering yourself to Christ.
Hell is a state of complete despair out which one is incapable of pulling oneself. It is eternal, unchanging. You are alive, in time.
I am surprised that you seem to express no horror at the thought of Christ, the innocent lamb, eternally taking on the pain and filth of sin, rather than we sinners who deserve it.

 

[rinnie]

One Sheep, Hi!

Okay to begin with Jesus know our minds and what we are thinking. I believe we can both agree with this.

The problem I believe we are having is this, you are not only seeing Jesus as human, you forget he is divine. When he is speaking to those men, he knows what they are thinking, and that they will never accept him, He said quite clear your father is the devil. Now do you think he would say that if he believed they would accept him? Remember he told them they will not listen.

You look at the foot of the cross. What we call the good their and the bad thief. The good thief says Jesus forgive me, I accept my death, I deserve it, and remember me when you come into YOUR kingdom. Jesus accepts his confession and says from this day on you will be with me in paradise. He is forgiven, He admitted his wrong.

Next you have the bad thief, he could care less about God, or repentance, or heaven or hell. He wants off. He says if you are the Son of God get me off of here. He does not want to change, or pay his debt. He wants off the cross so he can go on and cheat and steal and kill do as much evil as he can. He is evil.

If someone will not change and repent on their death bed and not want God, do you really think they will in the next world?

Well Jesus tells us they will not.

In another scripture he teaches someone will say did I not do this, and that in your name? And Jesus said I DO NOT KNOW YOU! Do you see what he is saying, If we don’t know him or want him in this world, we do not want to know him or want him.

And he will not be fooled by them in the next either.

Unfortunately some people do not want God. I know its impossible for us to understand. But only because of our Love for God.