Is Jesus God?

[Newbie2]

Mistakenly is the key word, and it would obviously be their mistake to do so. There is no sin in being ignorant. We all have been ignorant of things at one time. I was not born with all the truths taught in the Catholic Church. I was ignorant of them. Now, I have pretty well resolved that in a big way. Still have a lot to learn, and we are all terribly ignorant compared to God. This is not a derision, but just the way it is. There is no acceptable reason to me, though to be largely ignorant of the wonderful truths that God has revealed for us about Himself. It is certainly no virtue to be ignorant, then. I wouldn’t consider it a grace from God, would you?

I agree completely; excellent explanation.

God said He should be worshipped:
Hebrews 1
6 And then, when he presented his honored Son to the world, God said, “Let all the angels of God worship him.” NLT

Notice it says “worship him” not “worship me”.

So God the father says that he is the only God and as such is the only one to be worshipped (See the first commandment). And then he says to worship this Jesus person, who is not God? Doesn’t make any sense, does it?

2 reasons:

1. When joining this forum, they were only 2 choices if I remember correctly (drop down box).
2. Chambers 21st Century Dictionary defines it as:

“Protestant or protestant noun 1 a member of any of the Christian churches which embraced the principles of the Reformation and, rejecting the authority of the pope, separated from the Roman Catholic Church. 2 a member of any body descended from these. adj relating or belonging to Protestants. Protestantism noun.
ETYMOLOGY: 16c: originally applied to those princes and others who in 1529 protested against an edict denouncing the Reformation.”

I agree with the “rejecting the authority of the pope” bit.
I don’t know what the Reformation bit is all about. I’m guessing that’s all the bits the Catholics have made up e.g. Hail Mary, buying your way into heaven, calling men Holy Father, etc. etc.

So do you consider yourself a Christian i.e. one who worships Christ as Lord? (Which is pretty much the definition of a Christian.)

When you register as a new user, there is a blank box (not a drop down list), in which you can write anything you desire. The examples given above the blank box are “Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.” Do you see the etcetera? You can also change this in your user account at any time. Please feel free to do so, to reflect where you are. Where you currently are is unfortunately not a Christian of any sort. I hope you become a Christian for your own sake.

Me too, and I’d urge you to change your religious orientation so that everyone’s clear as to where you’re coming from. I, for one, make certain assumptions when someone calls themself a Protestant, one of them being that they believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

[LBSDBS]

The Bible doesn’t teach it’s own truths. That’s the job of God’s one Church, and they have taught these things without error. You take the Scriptures and come away with many errors on your own. Why is that? So, apparently it’s your job to take Scriptures, and create false “teachings” from God’s written word.

This is really the only issue I have with Catholicism. Please offer PROOF that the catholic traditional teaching is the “correct” teaching, and not just another interpretation of past events.

And then, when he presented his honored Son to the world, God said, “Let all the angels of God worship him.”

What all of this suggests is that Jesus, as a spirit, is a very unique being. Clearly, he is not the creator of the universe in mind, but scripture DOES indicate a very unique and strong bond between Jesus and the creator, not shared by anyone else. It just might be that Jesus being the son of God is a literal statement. In literal form, that still does not make Jesus the creator of the universe in mind.

 

[rpp]

MartinR complete refusal to even acknowledge Holy scripture, in particular John Chapter 1, and numberous other passages, lcearly demonstrates that he is willfully blind.

I am quitting this thread because there is no attempt at sincerity on the part of the OP.

 

[Martin_R]

Ok here it is:

John 1:1 (Greek):

archē In the beginning g746
logos was the Word, g3056
logos and the Word g3056
theos was with God, g2316 Here we’re told theos means “was with God”
logos and the Word g3056
theos was God. g2316 Here we’re told theos means “was God”

“Theos” is used twice but the translators have chosen a different meaning for each time it is used. How can they do that? If I said “cat cat” would they translate that as “cat dog”?
It looks like the translators have made it read what they want it to read.
Maybe they were trying to fit in with what Constantine believed because that became the done thing and people just blindly followed. At first to avoid execution then later it became tradition.

Theos can mean Christ or God’s representative so you could translate John 1:1 as:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was Christ and the Word was God’s representative.

The word “theos” also means “likeness“ and is used in Eph 4:24

Eph 4:24 You must display a new nature because you are a new person, created in God’s likeness–righteous, holy, and true.

and put g1746 ἐνδύωendyō
on the new g2537 καινόςkainos
self, * g444 ἄνθρωποςanthrōpos *
which in the likeness of God g2316 θεόςtheos *
has been created g2936 κτίζωktizō *
in righteousness g1343 δικαιοσύνηdikaiosynē *
and holiness g3742 ὁσιότηςhosiotēs *
of the truth. g225 ἀλήθειαalētheia

Jesus is like God and we should try and be like Jesus.

So you could also translate John 1:1 as

In the beginning was the Word, and the word was Christ and the word was like God.
Which is what you’d expect i.e. The son is like the father.

I found a discussion on this verse (John 1:1) some time ago on the net.
A Greek expert from some university was asked if this verse shows that Jesus is God.
He started by making it clear he was not at all religious so could give an unbiased opinion.
His conclusion was that there was not enough information in this short sentence to say one way or the other.

 

[Martin_R]

I asked a Protestant friend about the reformation and he said this:

"The Protestant reformation had little to do with the Roman catholics - only that a large group of people rejected the pope and the rest of it and embraced the truth found in the Bible.
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

So in a sense - the Catholics reformed themselves to become protestants."

 

[Martin_R]

What all of this suggests is that Jesus, as a spirit, is a very unique being. Clearly, he is not the creator of the universe in mind, but scripture DOES indicate a very unique and strong bond between Jesus and the creator, not shared by anyone else. It just might be that Jesus being the son of God is a literal statement. In literal form, that still does not make Jesus the creator of the universe in mind.

Agreed!

 

[Martin_R]

This is why God created His Church as pillar and foundation of the truth, not the Bible.

But - 2Ti 3:16 -
All Scripture is God‑breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, NIV
If church teaching doesn’t go by the Bible, it isn’t God-breathed and could, therefore, contain man made ideas.
1TH 5:21 But examine everything {carefully;} hold fast to that which is good; NASB

Jesus is the “I am” which is God.

Where does it say that about Jesus?

Jesus became man.

YES! AGREED!
Not “God became man” as some say.

It is clear throughout Scriptures that He did not give up His Divinity.

Chambers definition:
divinity noun (divinities) 1 theology. 2 a god. 3 the state of being God or a god.
That would mean there are 2 Gods and we are told there is only one.
Saying they are a trinity is a way of getting round that but it’s not in the Bible - just a man made idea. Why would you want to try and get round it? Just believe what it says.

It is clear throughout Scriptures that Jesus is authentically a man as well.

He looked like a man as He was given a human body but He was no ordinary man, as He was the Son of God.

Jesus is the God-man.

God’s-Son-man would sound better. Or “Son of God” as He and God said or “Son of man” as He said but not “God the Son” as some say.

These are two natures.

Welll…that doesn’t really sound right. I think it’s us that have 2 natures.
Rom 7:21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. NLT
We sometimes do the right thing and sometimes don’t. Isn’t that having 2 natures?

When you have two natures, you have two wills.

But don’t we all? (With the exception of God).
If you agree God has only one but think Jesus has two, isn’t that more proof Jesus isn’t God?

 

[Martin_R]

So God the father says that he is the only God and as such is the only one to be worshipped (See the first commandment). And then he says to worship this Jesus person, who is not God? Doesn’t make any sense, does it?

When the commandments were given, there was no Jesus (on earth at the time).
When Jesus came, he did away with the law.

So do you consider yourself a Christian i.e. one who worships Christ as Lord? (Which is pretty much the definition of a Christian.)

Yes.

Me too, and I’d urge you to change your religious orientation so that everyone’s clear as to where you’re coming from. I, for one, make certain assumptions when someone calls themself a Protestant, one of them being that they believe that Jesus Christ is Lord

Protestant sounds ok to me. See my other post for its definition.
I try and go by what the Bible says. I don’t know if there is a church or religion that does that. I’ve heard that when Joseph Smith (Mormon) had his vision of God and Jesus, he asked which church he should go to. He was told none of them have got it right. Maybe that’s still the case, I don’t know. I expect when Jesus criticized some of the 7 churches, they were surprised, each thinking they were correct.

P.S. I’m not a Mormon in case you’re wondering.

 

[placido]

Yes I can understand your man made ideas, it’s just that they don’t come from the Bible - God’s Word.

The following words and phrases are just not there:

1.Triune
2.Trinity
3.God the Son
4.God humbled Himself (and became a man).
5.Fully God and fully man.

Also missing:
6. Bible
7.Bible - God’s Word

placido

 

[placido]

God said He should be worshipped:
Hebrews 1
6 And then, when he presented his honored Son to the world, God said, “Let all the angels of God worship him.” NLT

Notice it says “worship him” not “worship me”.

Either God contradicted Himself (impossible I think) or Jesus is God. There is one God and only Him should we worship, remember? Therefore, God commanded us to worship Jesus because Jesus is God.

placido

 

[JW55]

Martin R-

Are you associated with any particular denomination? Do you attend church or are your claims of your own conjecture?

 

[Martin_R]

Also missing:
6. Bible
7.Bible - God’s Word

placido

Scripture = Bible:

e.g. 2Ti 3:16
All Scripture is God‑breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, NIV

 

[Martin_R]

Either God contradicted Himself (impossible I think) or Jesus is God. There is one God and only Him should we worship, remember? Therefore, God commanded us to worship Jesus because Jesus is God.

placido

Already answered in post #67

 

[Martin_R]

Martin R-

Are you associated with any particular denomination? Do you attend church or are your claims of your own conjecture?

I tried a number of churches in my area, the best I could find was an evangelist one so that is where I go. They keep closer to Bible teaching than any other I know of but they do think Jesus is God. I’d rather stick to what the Bible says than my own ideas or what any church thinks.

 

[Martin_R]

Regarding creation, I did find some verses that suggest it might have been a joint effort by God and His Son. Will have to dig out my notes on that. Also In Genisis, when God creates everything, it mostly says, “I did this”, “I did that”. But there is one verse that is plural. Maybe that is speaking of God and Jesus or perhaps God and some angels - we’re not told.

 

[Newbie2]

This is really the only issue I have with Catholicism. Please offer PROOF that the catholic traditional teaching is the “correct” teaching, and not just another interpretation of past events.

I seriously doubt that you’d accept any PROOF i.e. that your mind is firmly made up about the matter.

When Jesus came, he did away with the law.

No, he fulfilled the law. Said so himself. That, friend is right out of his mouth.

Protestant sounds ok to me. See my other post for its definition.
I try and go by what the Bible says. I don’t know if there is a church or religion that does that. I’ve heard that when Joseph Smith (Mormon) had his vision of God and Jesus, he asked which church he should go to. He was told none of them have got it right. Maybe that’s still the case, I don’t know. I expect when Jesus criticized some of the 7 churches, they were surprised, each thinking they were correct.

P.S. I’m not a Mormon in case you’re wondering.

So I ask again, do you consider yourself a Christian. You seem to be avoiding the question.

I tried a number of churches in my area, the best I could find was an evangelist one so that is where I go. They keep closer to Bible teaching than any other I know of but they do think Jesus is God. I’d rather stick to what the Bible says than my own ideas or what any church thinks.

Yet you seem also to stick to your own interpretation of “what the Bible says”. Very convenient. Can you read Greek and Hebrew? If not, your understanding of scripture is already dependant on whomever did the translation.

But - 2Ti 3:16 -
All Scripture is God‑breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, NIV

It seems that you’re confused about the meaning of “is useful”. It’s not the same as “is the sole authority”.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’ve started this thread to discuss the idea that Jesus is God. I don’t think so and no, I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness.

Is it your belief that Jesus never claimed to be God?

Or are you simply rejecting His claim?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Regarding creation, I did find some verses that suggest it might have been a joint effort by God and His Son. Will have to dig out my notes on that. Also In Genisis, when God creates everything, it mostly says, “I did this”, “I did that”. But there is one verse that is plural. Maybe that is speaking of God and Jesus or perhaps God and some angels - we’re not told.

Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, **(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=1&version=31#fen-NIV-26b”)] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

Us. Our.

Since angels cannot create in the since that God can, God was not including them in the creative process by saying “Let us make man in our image.” He was referring to Himself as a Trinity of Divine Persons.

 

[Ghosty]

archē In the beginning g746
logos was the Word, g3056
logos and the Word g3056
theos was with God, g2316 Here we’re told theos means “was with God”
logos and the Word g3056
theos was God. g2316 Here we’re told theos means “was God”

“Theos” is used twice but the translators have chosen a different meaning for each time it is used. How can they do that? If I said “cat cat” would they translate that as “cat dog”?
It looks like the translators have made it read what they want it to read.

It appears that you’re using the Blue Letter Bible concordance, but you don’t know how to read it. The first part you wrote about in blue actually says ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν which means “was with God”, with theos being bolded. The second part says καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος which means “the Word was God”, again theos is bolded, as is logos. The different endings of theos, and the different words around it, indicate the meaning of the two sentances; it’s not as if theos itself is simply used twice all alone.

You make the same mistake of not isolating the particular word in Ephesians which means likeness, and which doesn’t appear in the passages about Jesus.

As for where Jesus is called “I Am”, I’ve already provided that in my previous post. He calls Himself “I Am” in John 7.

Peace and God bless!

 

[placido]

Scripture = Bible:

e.g. 2Ti 3:16
All Scripture is God‑breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, NIV

Sorry brother. I was under the impression I am dealing with someone knowledgeable and serious …

So, you believe that when Jesus spoke about Scriptures He was speaking about the Bible - all the 66 (73) books?
Now I know why you canot even understanding Jesus is God.

placido