Is Jesus God?

[Sunflower15]

Wow, that’s an impressive analogy that I never thought of before, thank you!

Zach

You are welcome, Zach…
I was a philosophy major in a Catholic Univ. in Houston [St. Thomas - Aquinas] and many of my friends were Muslims, who sincerely tried to understand how we could even believe this…not in a cynical way at all, these were Muslims studying in a Catholic university for the quality of the education and for the similarity of an understanding of humanity in the framework of a God-fearing/loving life in a mostly secular world - just as they do - but could not understand because they did not grow up with these concepts.

I kept trying to find analogies and they understood, I did not attempt to convert them at all, they knew this! I believe that the Lord guides people to the precise place He wants them. But, they had to take a minimum of 2 Catholic theology classes and struggled to even answer these questions in tests, so I tried to find explanations.

The Athanasian Creed helped some, but was too complicated if the concepts were never even heard of before, so I had to give some simple ‘hints’ for them to then read more & at least understand that we were not committing idolatry.

Unfortunately, I have less patience for those who should know basic Christianity because they claim to be Christians…I’m working of this! [humbly…]

 

[Sunflower15]

I don’t know what sort of Protestant I am.

Respectfully , may I ask why you consider yourself Christian? What in Christianity ‘clicks’ with you? Could you maybe be more Jewish or Muslim? I’m sincerely curious because you seem sincere in your search. That’s all!

See, there is this issue in Christianity from the point of reason alone, that the Redeemer MUST be human in order for his effort to have ‘efficacy’ for ANY human at all, and at the same time, if the Redeemer is ONLY human, HIS particular effort will ONLY have ‘efficacy’ for HIM particularly, not for the rest of us.

On the other hand, for the ‘efficacy’ of the Redemption to apply to ALL humans, this redemption MUST ‘transcend’ a ***particular ***human, while it is still necessary to be done by a human [for reasons above].

In this sense, the only possible solution to this redemption ‘puzzle’ is that the Redeemer MUST be fully Human AND fully Divine [the only way to transcend humanity to apply to all humans because we were created by God].
Sometimes, it helps some people who are mental rather than emotional, to look at things from a simply rational sense, and then look again at Revelation. Things may ‘look’ more clear then.

It is sometimes difficult to read the Bible because everything we read, we read through the ‘lens’ of what we have been told…and that applies to all traditions.

I believe that God speaks to us internally and through others, as well as through Scriptures, and sometimes we hear a ‘click’ that opens the door to understanding from unexpected sources or in unexpected ways, but in the end, look within you. Your Maker knows you best! He will never leave us alone!

BTW, I’m not ‘steering’ you into a particular Christian tradition, though I’m very much Catholic, this is basic to all Christians for 2 millenniums now…reallly!!!
*

 

[zach_dunn]

I just found another problematic verse for you Martin:

Colossians 2:9
“9 For in him [Christ] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

This reminds me of the second post you posted in this thread, where you said that God didn’t say that Jesus is really Him in bodily form (confusing grammar, sorry). It looks like St. Paul begs to differ.

Zach

 

[Martin_R]

Originally Posted by zach dunn
Wow, that’s an impressive analogy that I never thought of before, thank you!

Agreed!

Originally Posted by Sunflower15
Maybe it is your definition of God

Thank you very much! I think you may have answered the question.
I’ll have to think about it some more but I think I now understand. I think my understanding of who Jesus is is correct but my understanding of trinity wasn’t.

To me, God is the creator and highest authority so nobody else can be God as there is only one. But you (I think) are saying God is like a family name, therefore, Jesus can also be God. Or two different cars can both be described as a Ford but they might be totally different models.

 

[Martin_R]

Respectfully , may I ask why you consider yourself Christian?

You may. Quite simply I’m somebody who believes in Christ.
I thought that answer up* then* looked up the definition of Christian and found it’s:
“someone who believes in, and follows the teachings and example of, Jesus Christ.”

I believe that God speaks to us internally and through others, as well as through Scriptures, and sometimes we hear a ‘click’ that opens the door to understanding from unexpected sources or in unexpected ways

Agreed.

 

[Martin_R]

I just found another problematic verse for you Martin:

Colossians 2:9
“9 For in him [Christ] the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

No, I don’t find that verse a problem. Christ is God’s representative and exact likeness, He shows us what God is like so saying God is in (or dwells in) Christ is a perfectly reasonable way of putting it. He has God’s character and qualities.

 

[Martin_R]

Originally Posted by **Sunflower15 **
newworldencyclopedia.org/…hanasian_Creed

It says, “The Father is neither made nor begotten; the Son is not made but is begotten from the Father;”

So The Father wasn’t made but has always existed. The Bible tell us that.

But “the Son is not made but is begotten from the Father”.

Can somebody explain that please? I’m trying to work out where that comes from.
Jesus has/has not always existed?
Begotten = “Came from” the Father. The Bible tells us that but as far as I can make out, it doesn’t say if He was created or has always existed.

 

[Martin_R]

Could you maybe be more Jewish or Muslim?

No, I’m not Jewish or Muslim.

 

[zach_dunn]

It says, “The Father is neither made nor begotten; the Son is not made but is begotten from the Father;”

So The Father wasn’t made but has always existed. The Bible tell us that.

But “the Son is not made but is begotten from the Father”.

Can somebody explain that please? I’m trying to work out where that comes from.
Jesus has/has not always existed?
Begotten = “Came from” the Father. The Bible tells us that but as far as I can make out, it doesn’t say if He was created or has always existed.

It is a quite confusing concept Martin, but Jesus did always exist [John 1:1-2]. He even makes an appearance in Genesis.

Genesis 1:3
“3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.”

How does God create? Through His Word. As Christians, we should always read the New Testament in light of the new. So here is the New Testament understanding:

John 1:1-3, 14
“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made … 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.”

Verse three directly asserts that Jesus was actually the creator of the universe, and that he was also always with God. Verse three also asserts that Jesus is God. This is a plausible conclusion because we are told in Genesis that “God created the heavens and the earth” and we know the Jesus (the Word) created the heavens and the earth. So it follows that Jesus is God. I know we’ve gone over this extensively but the best argument that Jesus has been around forever is to assert that He is God. Some translations read John 1:18 like this:

“18 No one has ever seen God; God the only-begotten, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.”

I think you would agree that this directly states that Jesus is in fact, God. Many versions do not read like this but I think this translation is closer to the Greek:

“18 θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.”

You can see from the Greek that the word God θεὸς or theos] is used twice in the verse but you only see it once in the text. I’m not sure why many translations leave the second “God” out but this is very positive evidence for the divinity of Christ.“μονογενὴς θεὸς” or “monogenEs theos” means “the only-begotten God” or “God the only-begotten.” The Greek makes it clear that Jesus is God, I’m not sure why many translations do not translate it that way.

The point I’m trying to make with Gen 1:3; Jn 1:1-3, 14; and Jn 1:18 is basically that Jesus was around forever and that He is God.

I have a DVD of a class my Priest used to teach. He gave the actual technical explanation of how Jesus is begotten and not made but I can’t remember, it’s quite complicated. I’ll watch it again and write down what he says and try to explain it to you! The way he explained it actually made perfect sense to me.

 

[zach_dunn]

“18 No one has ever seen God; God the only-begotten, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.”

This isn’t actually found in any version I looked at but I did find similar ones. I couldn’t edit my post anymore so I decided to write it here instead.

John 1:18
“18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” [New American Standard Bible]

 

[ms_alternative]

Ms Alternative, did you post this to show me that the Bible speaks of only 12 apostles (and that Paul is not includede)? So, you believe what the Bibles says in the above verses, but you don’t believe what the Bibles in the verses below:
1 Corinthians 1:1;
2 Corinthians 1:1
Galatins 1:1

placido

St. Paul is attributed with the writing of 13 books in the Bible, 7 by himself and 6 by others in his name. He was born in Tarsus as “Saul” and adopted the Christian name of Paul after converting to what is now “Christianity”.

Mithraism and Judaism merged and became Christianity. Jesus, son of the Hebrew sky God, and Mithras, son of Ormuzd are both the same myth. The rituals of Christianity coincide with the earlier rituals of Mithraism, including the Eucharist and the Communion in great detail. The language used by Mithraism was the language used by Christians. St Paul as the first “Christian” bears much of the responsibility for merging the two in his preaching and teaching, and also comes from Tarsus, a major Mithraist center.
The idea of a sacrificed saviour is Mithraist, so is the symbolism of bulls, rams, sheep, the blood of a transformed saviour washing away sins and granting eternal life, the 7 sacraments, the banishing of an evil host from heaven, apocalyptic end of time when God/Ormuzd sends the wicked to hell and establishes peace. Roman Emperors, Mithraist then Christian, mixed the rituals and laws of both religions into one. Emperor Constantine established 25th of Dec, the birth date of Mithras, to be the birth date of Jesus too. The principal day of worship of the Jews, The Sabbath, was replaced by the Mithraistic Sun Day as the Christian holy day. The Catholic Church, based in Rome and founded on top of the most venerated Mithraist temple, wiped out all competing son-of-god religions within the Roman Empire, giving us modern literalist Christianity."

It was in Tarsus that the Mysteries of Mithras had originated, so it would have been unthinkable that Paul would have been unaware of the remarkable similarities we have already explored between Christian doctrines and the teachings of Mithraism. Tarsus was the capital of Cilicia, where, according to Plutarch [46-125CE], the Mithraic Mysteries were being practiced as early as 67BCE"

so do you follow Paul or Jesus? there teachings are not the same.

 

[ms_alternative]

How many Persons in ONE God? You don’t think ONE God can have three Persons?
Why? Maybe it is your definition of God…the Christian one is a Triune God…or Godhead.

The Bible uses the image of marriage a lot as an analogy of God.

How many Persons in ONE marriage? Is the marriage not a NEW identity distinct from the Persons in it? [If you don’t believe me, go see a credit report of a husband and wife, their marriage has becomes a new legal identity holding both responsible!]

Well, there is the Husband, there is the Wife, there is the Marriage which is the LOVE between them that becomes a new legal identity [as well as social, religious, etc,…that is why an annulment is only possible if a defect is found since the beginning, otherwise, no one can ‘break it apart’] None of these is the ‘same’ as the others, but all are equal ‘the Marriage’.

There is the Father, there is the Son, there is the Holy Spirit, the LOVE flowing between Father and Son personified, all three Persons into one Godhead, the Triune God of 3 Persons.

The best explanation I have read is from St. Athanasius [3 c.] in the famous Athanasian Creed…he explains clearly and in detail, step by step, almost fool-proof, unless one is ‘intellectual dishonest’’. He was the one who defeat this extremely ancient heresy that keeps coming back every generation, as if someone rediscovered the wheel!

Yes it is possible to explain this, just most people are not as accurate as the early Fathers of the Church used to be, this heresy is SO old and had been refuted SO many times, that most people don’t even pay much attention to it…you can go online and find all the refutations…

I’m including the link, but please understand that when it says ‘catholic’ it means Christian, because on the 3rd c.[when this was written] every Christian was Catholic…today, many Reformation Protestants believe it as well, it is a prominent doctrinal document for Lutherans, for example. Obviously, to them, Catholic doesn’t mean the Latin Rite under the Pope…

newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Athanasian_Creed

Enjoy! It is a beautiful doctrinal document for all Christians!

the god head just like a marriage but when 3 people oh i mean 2
people oh i mean a man and a woman get married they become 1 person.
do you think god created this illogical god head to test are faith?
why did Jesus not explain this trinity himself?
the trinity is the foundation of your belief system but Jesus did not take the time to explain this himself. he needed Paul to change his teachings after his death.

 

[Newbie2]

You may. Quite simply I’m somebody who believes in Christ.
I thought that answer up* then* looked up the definition of Christian and found it’s:
“someone who believes in, and follows the teachings and example of, Jesus Christ.”

What does that mean, you “believe in Christ”? You believe he existed? You believe he was sent from God?

So do you worship Jesus? Generally when people say they “believe in Christ” they mean they believe him to be Lord.

BTW, Jesus spoke about “his kingdom”. Curious that he would not say “My Father’s Kingdom” if he did not consider himself as Lord, no?

 

[ms_alternative]

PAUL vs. JESUS
A List of Contradictory and Incompatible Statements​

By Edgar Jones​

Preface

The following statements from Paul’s letters are symptomatic of deep differences between the doctrines of Paul and Jesus – much as a fever is symptomatic of an infection in the body. You can read a discussion of their differences in Paul: the Stranger, my book that exposes Paul as a liar and a false prophet who did not know Jesus. The most significant difference is in their salvation doctrines as derived from their interpretations of the crucifixion. In these fundamental areas, Paul’s errors and false gospel are obvious to anyone who follows Jesus as teacher and listens carefully to Jesus’ words. Very seldom does anyone in Christendom so listen to Jesus as to receive his Word of Truth, even though the gospels repeatedly quote his Word. The reason? The churchmen get to everyone first with false Pauline doctrine, which then stands between them and Jesus, blocking the Light. His words come through but not his message. My hope is that this list will motivate you to remove the blindfold and see the Good Shepherd as he is. Your eternal salvation depends on it! So, do not listen to me or anyone other than Jesus if you would receive eternal life. Here is the key, from his pure lips:

John.5
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

This list is surely not complete, for it is very easy to overlook Paul’s contradictory and/or incompatible statements. Therefore, I offer it as a beginning and invite all who see omissions to bring them to my attention via email.

On January 21, 2006, Contradiction No. 10 that was placed in error was replaced by another of Paul’s many contradictions, this on dying. A Christian who has critiqued this page and disputed every one of the listed contradictions took the time to compose a detailed refutation of each of the twenty-five on the list. You can find my response voiceofjesus.org/paulvsjesus.html. I am indebted to him for disclosing to us that the prior No. 10 was erroneous.

1. On the time of the coming of the Lord:

Paul says:

Rom.13
[12] the night is far gone, the day is at hand.

Jesus says:

Luke.21
[8] Take heed that you are not led astray; for many will come in my name,
saying, . . . `The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.

1. On the source of the Truth and the true gospel:

Paul says:

1Cor.2
[13] And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.
Gal.1
[12] For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Jesus says:

John.17
[14] I have given them thy word;
[17] Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.

1. On the God of the dead:

Paul says:

Rom.14
[9] For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Jesus says:

Luke.20
[38] Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living;

1. On the sum of the commandments:

Paul says:

Rom.13
[9] The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Jesus says:

Matt.22
[37] And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
[38] This is the great and first commandment.
[39] And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
[40] On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.

1. On whom God has mercy:

Paul says:

Rom.9
[15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
[16] So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Jesus says:

Matt.5
[7] Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

1. On forgiveness of trespasses:

Paul says:

Eph.1
[7] In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace
Rom.4
[25] who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Jesus says:

Matt.6
[14] For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;
[15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

1. On being justified:

Paul says:

Rom.3
[24] they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
[28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Rom.5
[9] Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Jesus says:

Matt.12
[37] for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

1. On the cost of eternal life:

Paul says:

Rom.6
[23] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus says:

Matt.19
[29] And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Luke.14
[28] For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?
[33] So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

1. On what is honorable among men:

Paul says:

2Cor.8
[21] for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord’s sight but also in the sight of men.
Rom.12
[17] Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all men.
Rom.14
[18] he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
1Cor.10
[33] just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

Jesus says:

Luke.16
[15] But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Luke.6
[26] Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.

1. On Dying:

Paul says:

I Corinthians 15

31: I protest, brethren, by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day!

Jesus says:

John 11
26: and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die.

 

[ms_alternative]

1. On the basis of judgment:

Paul says:

Rom.2
[12] All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

Jesus says:

John.12
[48] He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.

1. On the commandments and eternal life:

Paul says:

Rom.7
[9] I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
[10] the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me.

Jesus says:

Matt.19
[17] And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.

1. On your father:

Paul says:

1Cor.4
[15] For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Phlm.1
[10] I appeal to you for my child, Ones’imus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment.

Jesus says:

Matt.23

[9] And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

1. On qualifying for eternal life:

Paul says:

Rom.5
[21] so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus says:

John.5
[24] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

1. On the destiny of the creation (heavens and earth):

Paul says:

Rom.8
[21] because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Jesus says:

Matt.24
[35] Heaven and earth will pass away,

1. On the destiny of the Law and the Prophets:

Paul says:

Rom.10
[4] For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.

Jesus says:

Matt.5
[17] Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
[18] For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

1. On the number and identity of teachers:

Paul says:

1Cor.12
[28] And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers,
Eph.4
[11] And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
1Tim.2
[7] For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2Tim.1
[11] For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,

Jesus says:

Matt.23
[8] But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.

1. On the number to be saved:

Paul says:

Rom.11
[25] Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,
[26] and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob.

Jesus says:

Matt.7
[13] Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

1. On the number and identity of pastors (shepherds):

Paul says:

Eph.4
[11] And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors (shepherds) and teachers,

Jesus says:

John.10
[16] And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

1. On the number and identity of leaders:

Paul says:

1Cor.4
[15] For though you have countless leaders in Christ . . …

Jesus says:

Matt.23
[10] Neither be called leaders, for you have one leader, the Christ.

21: On total depravity:

Paul says:

Rom.3

[9] What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin,
[10] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
[22] For there is no distinction;
[23] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, . . …

Jesus says:

Matt.12
[35] The good man out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure brings forth evil.
Luke.6
[45] The good man out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil man out of his evil treasure produces evil; for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
Matt.23
[35] that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechari’ah the son of Barachi’ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

1. On unconditional election:

Paul says:

Rom.9
[16] So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.

Jesus says:

Matt.7
[21] Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.

 

[ms_alternative]

1. On sacrifices to God:

Paul says:

1Cor.5
[7] For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed.
Eph.5
[2] And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Jesus says:

Matt.9
[13] Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’

1. On remuneration for preaching the gospel:

Paul says:

1Tim.5
[17] Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;
[18] for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,” and, "The laborer deserves his wages.
1Cor.9
[11] If we have sown spiritual good among you, is it too much if we reap your material benefits?
[12] If others share this rightful claim upon you, do not we still more?

Jesus says:

Matt.10
[7] And preach as you go, saying, `The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’
[8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.

1. On how one becomes a child of God:

Paul says:

Rom.8
[23] and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Gal.4
[5] to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Jesus says:

John.3
[3] Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is begotten from above,* he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is begotten of the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Do not marvel that I said to you, `You must be begotten from above.*

• John 3:3 and 3:7 are the author’s translations. These differ from the RSV only in the expression “begotten from above” that replaces "born anew’ in the RSV. “Born anew” does not represent the fullness of what Jesus is stating here, and does not correspond to the literatal translation of the Greek, anothen (a()nwqen).

 

[Martin_R]

Newbie2:

What does that mean, you "believe in Christ?

I believe what the Bible tells us about Him. e.g. He’s the Son of God, God’s Messenger and High Priest (Hebrews 3:1), our Lord and master (Jude 1:4), head of the church and our saviour (Eph 5:23) etc.

You believe he existed?

Of course.

You believe he was sent from God?

Yes.

So do you worship Jesus?

Chambers definition of worship:

1 tr & intr to honour (God or a god) with praise, prayer, hymns, etc.
Yes.

2 to love or admire someone or something, especially blindly; to idolise them or it.
Love, no. (I know I’m supposed to). Admire, yes. Idolise, no.

*3 to glorify or exalt (material things, eg money). noun 1 a the activity of worshipping; b the worship itself. *
Yes.

2 a religious service in which God or a god is honoured • morning worship.
Yes.

Generally when people say they “believe in Christ” they mean they believe him
to be Lord.

Lord meaning master or ruler, yes.
God is the highest authority, then Jesus, then us.

BTW, Jesus spoke about “his kingdom”. Curious that he would not say “My Father’s Kingdom” if he did not consider himself as Lord, no?

Jesus will rule the Kingdom for 1000 years then hand it back to God.
The Bible, therefore, sometimes speaks of the Kingdom of Jesus and sometimes the Kingdom of God. There are several stories Jesus tells to illustrate the Kingdom of God but none of those stories illustrate a 3 in 1 concept. Don’t you find that curious?

 

[Martin_R]

“The Father is neither made nor begotten; the Son is not made but is begotten from the Father;”

Surely if Jesus is God, the first and second parts of that sentence should be identical i.e. it should read:

The Father is neither made nor begotten; The Son is neither made nor begotten.

 

[Martin_R]

It is a quite confusing concept Martin, but Jesus did always exist [John 1:1-2]. He even makes an appearance in Genesis.

Genesis 1:3
“3 And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.”

That sounds like it might be God creating Jesus.
Then He continues creating things on His own until verse 26 when it reads,
"Then God said, “Let us make people [fn] in our image, to be like* ourselves*.” NLT

But then we have Proverbs 8:22-36NLT which also might be talking about Jesus.
22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning, before he created anything else."

That tells us Jesus was created before anything else which seems to contradict Genesis 1.

Maybe creation was a joint effort.
It has been said that Proverbs 8 is talking about Jesus. If it is, then we have this:
Pro 8:30 I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence.

Jesus was there but God did the creating:
Pro 8:27 "I was there when he established the heavens, when he drew the horizon on the oceans.
Pro 8:28 I was there when he set the clouds above, when** he established** the deep fountains of the earth.
Pro 8:29 I was there when he set the limits of the seas, so they would not spread beyond their boundaries. And when **he marked off **the earth’s foundations,

So maybe God created Jesus and then created everything else for him:
Pro 8:30 I was the architect at his side. I was his constant delight, rejoicing always in his presence.

 

[Martin_R]

God created everything for Jesus:

Col 1:16 Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see–kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him. NLT

Hebrews 1:10 seems to say Jesus created the heavens: “And, "Lord, in the beginning you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.”
But there’s a footnote that refers us to Ps 102:25-27. If you go back a little to verse 22, it is definitely speaking of God, not Jesus, as the word used is Yĕhovah.