Is Jesus God?

[Martin_R]

It is true that εἰμί means “to be” but it can’t just be translated in any tense. The actual phrase that is used to translate as I am is this: ἐγὼ εἰμί. This phrase can ONLY mean “I am.” Nothing else. That’s why the NLT is deficient, it does this in several areas. The translators know what it says, but they tried to put it in modern English, which just doesn’t work, at least not for the NLT. If you’re going to use a Protestant Bible, I would suggest the NIV, or the KJV at least. Also try the RSV if you’re going for accuracy. Anything but the NLT and the Message.

They are questioning His claim to have been around for long enough to have known Abraham.
NIV translates it as, " “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”" So he’s saying He existed before Abraham which doesn’t have to mean He is God.
Checking all 13 English translations on the Blue Letter Bible site, only 2 have decided
to put “I am” in capitals. It seems to me whenever Trinitarians claim to have found a verse that proves Jesus is God, there is usally a difference in translations or a footnote that says it might mean something else.
But when you check a verse such as 1Cr 8:6 But we know that there is only one God, the Father…NLT , all the translations say the same thing and they don’t continue, “oh and Jesus, He’s also God”.

 

[Martin_R]

Jesus is God therefore He created the commandments in the first place.

No, that was God.

19(A)Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.” NASB - Do you like that translation?

Then God agreed to send somebody on His behalf:

Deu 18:18
I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will tell that prophet what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command him. NIV

 

[Martin_R]

See, just another reason the NLT is deficient.

Galatians 3:24-25
“24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian.” [RSV-CE]

It says nothing about not needing the law, we are just not under it anymore.

Yes, agreed. I didn’t word it quite right but that is what I was meaning.

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law. We are still under the Ten Commandments, as are everyone. Those rules are sometimes known as the natural law, that is, we all have a natural tendency to obey them. Would you need the Commandment “You shall not kill” to know that murdering is wrong? I doubt it. We are all still bound by the Ten Commandments Martin.

Yep, agreed.

The NLT adds words that aren’t in the Greek Martin. Like the word God in verse 24. The word theos doesn’t appear anywhere in this passage. The NLT just can’t cut it.

In this particular passage I think both versions say the same. At least they do to me.

P.S. I don’t mean to offend you with my utter disdain for the NLT. I just think it is not a good translation and think you should use a new one.

Don’t worry, I’m not offended. I do check others (usually all of them) if there is any doubt about the meaning of a particular piece. I also check other verses to get an idea of the meaning of Greek or Hebrew words although I don’t speak those languages (as you’ve noticed )

 

[Martin_R]

AMong the many other evidences brought up did anyone mention St. Thomas’ confession in John 20:28, where he says, “my Lord and my God”?

That’s “theos” again which can refer to the things of God (and the other meaning which I won’t mention this time as it upsets Zach )

It’s used in Hebrews 5:1
Every high priest is selected from among men and is appointed to represent them in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. NIV

 

[Martin_R]

Oh and also, if you continue on to verse 31 it says, " But these are written that you may [fn] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." NIV

These things are written to show Jesus is the Son of God not God or both.

 

[Martin_R]

1. How could Jesus have existed before Abraham unless He was with the Father from the beginning?
   I’ve already said, it looks like creation was a joint effort.
2. Does that not imply immortality to you?
   But Jesus wasn’t immortal - He died. He is now of course.
3. Is the name of God not ‘I AM’? [Yahweh or Jehowah]
   Yes, but it doesn’t always mean that every time you see it in the Bible.
4. Would it not make sense that Jesus keeps answering that He is the ‘I AM’ if He were God? In other words, that would be the proof of the Prime Mover who ‘IS’ without being caused or created…simply exists in ‘BEING’
   He didn’t say it in capitals though.

Also, IF Jesus was accused of ‘BLASPHEMY’ that means that to the Jews whatever HE said [however mis-translated that might be] to the Jews sounded like He was likening Himself with God…whether saying He is the ‘Son of’ [which is the old way of ‘surnames’ or ‘family names’ in many cultures, implying familial status, of the same DNA/substance/inheritance/legacy, etc…not ‘adopted’ as we are]. To the Jews, that meant Jesus was God…since they accused Him of blasphemy.

I don’t know if what they thought was correct or not. It’s more important what Jesus and God said.

Sidenote: I once heard that from the point of view of humans, Jesus is the Son of God, but from the point of view of God, Jesus is the Son of Man…which He also claims to be. Notice how both of His natures: fully God, fully Man, are revealed this way.

Yeah that’s pretty Good. Hadn’t heard that before.

So, in you tradition, everyone [hundreds of denominations disagreeing about a lot of things, but ALL agreeing about the Trinity] has been mistaken for 2 millenniums?
It’s not that I think that alone would be sufficient, but it certainly makes me take another ‘look’ when I notice that much of a ‘coincidence’!

People have been believing all sorts for a long time. They Bible tells us that would happen back then:
Act 20:29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

or as the NLT puts it:

I know full well that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock.

I was wondering how do you interpret the Transfiguration? Or the Baptism of Jesus? Or the Ascension? In all of these, the Father clearly says that Jesus is His SON.

Exactly! Why didn’t He say, “This is another part of my Trinity” or “This is Me in human form” or “This is My Son, He’s also God”?

 

[Martin_R]

Well,…I just had to make a note here…Jesus is God, but Jesus is NOT the Father - Who CREATES…
Jesus is ‘THROUGH WHOM ALL things were created’ - the WORD/Wisdom. The Commandments are a perfect example of the Father creating through the Son - the Word.

All creation, seen and unseen, is created by the Father, through the Son/Word/Wisdom and for the Son/Word/Wisdom, and the living things were ANIMATED/'given LIFE/‘Breathed Upon’ by the '3rd Person of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit.

I think sometimes, we Catholics confuse the truths we are trying to clarify by not being precise. As when we say that ‘Jesus was there at the beginning of Time’…we don’t know that, it may or may not be, all we know is that ‘the 2nd Person of the Trinity -the Word/Wisdom’ was there at the beginning of Time’, and that the 2nd Person became Incarnate in Jesus much later in the history of God’s Covenant with mankind.

I know it sounds petty, but saying that Jesus is God is not the same as saying that God is Jesus…because Jesus is NOT the Holy Spirit nor the Father…each PERSON is distinct…though God is a perfect whole, not ‘parts’ put together…

I do think that the more one reads the Athanasian Creed, the more one understands the ''logical puzzle" of the Trinity…and the pieces of the puzzle all come from the Bible and Tradition…it’s just that the name ‘Trinity’ does not appear in the Bible…it is a ‘label’ we put on God…which the Jews traditionally have a definite aversion to do!

Yes, well put, especially the bit I’ve put in bold.

 

[Martin_R]

Is this what ‘bothers’ you -
that to accept the Trinity will lead to accepting Mary as Mother of God?

That’s one thing but not the only one.

Because there are countless Protestants who accept the Trinity but not that Mary is the Mother of God…some sound quite valid, actually…even if I disagree.

I know.

I think the Mary issue is ‘small’ in comparison with negating the Trinity, though!

I am also trying to understand why do you say that you worship Jesus because the Father said to worship Jesus, though you don’t think Jesus is God…I’m confused on this one Could you be more explicit?

First the commanment was given when there was only God to worship, then Jesus came along then God said worship Him.

Also when Daniel interpreted King Nebuchadnezzar’s dreams, the king worshipped him and he did not refuse to allow it so can we not assume he was worshipping God through Daniel? Daniel 2 v46.

His desire was to honour Daniel as the representative of the God who had revealed to His servant the dream’

Rom 16:27 To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
and
John 14:6 ’ I am the Way…no man comes to to the Father except* through* Me’

The word “through” suggests to me that God was worshipped through Jesus and through Daniel.
Maybe people thought Jesus is God because people worshipped God through him.
If you didn’t know better, you might think I was mad because I talk to telephones.
I’d have to say, no, I’m not talking to the telephone, I’m talking through it. But I can see why it looks that way.
John 14:10 says:
…my Father who lives in me does his work through me.

Jesus, as well as Daniel, was, of course, also a representative of God

 

[Martin_R]

He did teach it! Where do you think that John got it from? Surely, he wasn’t that creative!
John was VERY devoutly loyal to Jesus and to the Father as a pious Jew ]. John could not possibly have ‘come up’ with his Gospel without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and the teachings he learned from Jesus during the years that he followed Him closely.

When I read through John, it seems full of things that show Jesus isn’t God.

Jesus taught the Apostles, who wrote the Gospels and taught Tradition, both of which we still have today [Thanks God! ]

Jesus spoke of the Father many times, right? Jesus spoke of Himself as doing ‘His Father’s work’ and as ’ saying what He heard from the Father’ because ‘He did not speak of Himself, but what the He heard from the Father’, and of ‘knowing the Father,’ and of ‘being from the beginning or before others who lived centuries before Him’…and of ‘teaching with authority’ on the Word/Law since He was still a child [because of course, He IS the Word Incarnate!]

Jesus also spoke of the ‘Spirit,’ Whom Jesus would send to ‘comfort’ and to ‘teach’ or ‘reveal’ to us.

The only thing He did not do was to label all three as ‘The Trinity’, if that name is what prevents you from believing, just disregard that name! It is a human ‘label’ for God…

Yes, that’s the Problem. The Bible says there is only one God, not 3 in 1. That’s what bothers me along with the other things I’ve stated.

.just believe in the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit -

Yes.

as God…

No.

I have a question: I thought that all Christians had to be baptized in the name of ‘the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit’…in your tradition, don’t you get baptized like that? If not, what words are said instead?

You can say all 3 but it doesn’t mean they are all the same. In the same way you can fight for king/queen and country but they are not the same.

 

[Martin_R]

This is kinda funny cause i’ve been where Martin has been before. Only for me the beginning of John (John 1) was what did it for me. Years later i found out i was reading out of a Jehovah Witness Bible the entire time haha.

Anyway, Martin will come to the realization that Jesus is God but not the Father although the Father is God one day. But i think the problem is that he is seeking to understand. No one can understand the Trinity. It is what it is (anyone get that). God is in the form of the Trinity, and because you do not understand it does not mean it must not thus be real. (otherwise you would be toting the old Muslim argument)

It is a mystery, and when dealing with a mystery (or the how) one should not seek to understand it but to believe it.

I believe what the Bible says and it doesn’t say that as far as I can see.
That’s just an idea people came up with.
Saying it’s a mystery sounds like a cop out.
Why do you believe it? We don’t know but the others do so we just accept it too.
If a non believer questions me, I want to have an answer for them rather than an unconvincing shrug.

And its ok to admit when you are wrong,

Yes and I have done for other things in this forum.

I had to too. It feels so much better than doing scriptural acrobatics and twisting passages in order to make them mean what you say they mean. I leave you Martin with this Chart.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bc/Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.png

Yes, I’ve seen that before but it goes against 1Cr 8:6
“But we know that there is only one God, the Father…” NLT
Not 3 in1.

Seek not to understand, but to believe.

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Hmmmm…In your favorite quote lies the downfall to your argument.

1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

You see now why the Catholic interpretation of the Bible is to be trusted? The protestant interpretation is individual, and sometimes people will read one passage as a single doctrine. However when we read the passage you posted the most, 1 Cor 8:6 and read it in light of John 1, it is confirms that through Jesus all things came, and the one whom through all things came was the Word, and the Word was God. Do you see now that logically it would follow from these two passages that Jesus is God?

When you are ready you will learn.

 

[TheQuestioner]

I believe what the Bible says and it doesn’t say that as far as I can see.
That’s just an idea people came up with.
Saying it’s a mystery sounds like a cop out.
Why do you believe it? We don’t know but the others do so we just accept it too.
If a non believer questions me, I want to have an answer for them rather than an unconvincing shrug.

You’ve been given verse upon verse to explain the trinity. It is no
cop out". Saying it is a mystery means we do not know how it works, but we know that it exists. Why do we believe then if we cannot explain it? Because we know it to be true. God is beyond all we can imagine, and so to be wary of a God you can fully comprehend. If that answer does not satisfy the unbeliever then leave him in his unbelief.

 

[TheQuestioner]

I’m curious to know what you think of the Holy Spirit

 

[zach_dunn]

They are questioning His claim to have been around for long enough to have known Abraham.
NIV translates it as, " “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”" So he’s saying He existed before Abraham which doesn’t have to mean He is God.

You seem to admit that Jesus has been around forever, what do you believe He was before taking on flesh, if not God?

Checking all 13 English translations on the Blue Letter Bible site, only 2 have decided
to put “I am” in capitals. It seems to me whenever Trinitarians claim to have found a verse that proves Jesus is God, there is usally a difference in translations or a footnote that says it might mean something else.

It doesn’t have to be written in all capitals because the next verse shows us what He meant, that He is God.

But when you check a verse such as 1Cr 8:6 But we know that there is only one God, the Father…NLT , all the translations say the same thing and they don’t continue, “oh and Jesus, He’s also God”.

**They do continue like this, however: “. . . who created everything, and we exist for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.”

This reminds me of another verse:

Deuteronomy 6:4
“4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.”

Do you see the connection? Jesus is the only Lord, and the Lord is God. It’s that simple.

I think the NLT actually makes this even more clear (surprised me quite a bit )

Deuteronomy 6:4
“4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.”

Here we see that ONLY GOD IS THE LORD, and in 1 Cor 8:6 we see that Jesus is our Lord.

Note: I find it significant to note that the same word (kurios) is used in both verses in the Greek Old and New Testaments.**

 

[zach_dunn]

No, I was saying this is one of their reasons.

It wouldn’t be a reason because they simply didn’t care if He had a demon or not.

I suspect their anger was building and building with each of these things He said.

I don’t see anything in what Jesus said that would anger them, besides claiming the divine name . . .

Sorry, wrong verse. There are several, how about 49?

See, this is what I think instigated the anger, He claims to be God in this verse [see Jn 5:18].

Because He’s not one of their special group maybe.

Sorry, that’s kind of a week argument, they didn’t want Him in their social group, they had been plotting to kill Him, they just hadn’t had sufficient reason to. Until verse 58, that is.

Anger still building.

Nah, they didn’t care what He thinks. The Pharisees KNEW they were the holiest people of all, Jesus sat with sinners. They were above Him and what He thought didn’t matter, or so they thought.

Maybe that was the point at which He stopped speaking and they made their decision after all that He had said.

They only took up stones in verse 59, He spoke again in verse 58. He didn’t stop at 47.

No it doesn’t, that was the name He was given by God.

What basis do you have for saying this?

 

[Martin_R]

Hmmmm…In your favorite quote lies the downfall to your argument.

1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

God created things through Jesus:

• 1Cor 8:6 - NIV
  yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

When you do something through somebody else, that person becomes your representative e.g. a lawer, just as Jesus was God’s representative.

John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

I’ve already covered this in posts #129-132

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

You see now why the Catholic interpretation of the Bible is to be trusted? The protestant interpretation is individual, and sometimes people will read one passage as a single doctrine. However when we read the passage you posted the most, 1 Cor 8:6 and read it in light of John 1, it is confirms that through Jesus all things came, and the one whom through all things came was the Word, and the Word was God. Do you see now that logically it would follow from these two passages that Jesus is God?

No more than my lawer is me.

When you are ready you will learn.

 

[Martin_R]

I believe what the Bible says and it doesn’t say that as far as I can see.
That’s just an idea people came up with.
Saying it’s a mystery sounds like a cop out.
Why do you believe it? We don’t know but the others do so we just accept it too.
If a non believer questions me, I want to have an answer for them rather than an unconvincing shrug.

You’ve been given verse upon verse to explain the trinity. It is no
cop out". Saying it is a mystery means we do not know how it works, but we know that it exists. Why do we believe then if we cannot explain it? Because we know it to be true. God is beyond all we can imagine, and so to be wary of a God you can fully comprehend. If that answer does not satisfy the unbeliever then leave him in his unbelief.

Maybe but then again how are people to understand if you don’t explain and persuade?

Acts 26 NIV
28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can* persuade* me to be a Christian?”
29 Paul replied, “Short time or long–I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains.”

and

Acts 19 NIV
8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.

 

[Martin_R]

I’m curious to know what you think of the Holy Spirit

I haven’t really studied that as a subject but I suspect my views are the same as yours on that.

 

[judes]

I’ve started this thread to discuss the idea that Jesus is God. I don’t think so and no, I’m not a Jehovah’s Witness.

HELLO Martin YES YES YES IS THE ANSWER.I know this to true because i met him in town called MEDJUGORJE in 2006.

jude.

 

[Martin_R]

**You seem to admit that Jesus has been around forever, /B

Maybe/maybe not around forever but before the earth was created. (Post #197)
**
what do you believe He was before taking on flesh, if not God?

Son of God, given a body by God.

Hbr 10:5 That is why Christ, when he came into the world, said, "You did not want animal sacrifices and grain offerings. But you have given me a body so that I may obey you. NLT

or “But a body You have prepared for Me.” as other translations have put it.

It doesn’t have to be written in all capitals because the next verse shows us what He meant, that He is God.

They do continue like this, however: ". . . who created everything, and we exist for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life."

This reminds me of another verse:

Deuteronomy 6:4
“4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.”

Yes, no mention of three in one.

Do you see the connection? Jesus is the only Lord, and the Lord is God. It’s that simple.

• Deu 6:4 - NIV
  Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.*
  Footnote:

• Or The Lord our God is one Lord; or The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; or The Lord is our God, the Lord alone

It seems to be making a point here that Yĕhovah (the word used here) is only one, not three in one. Yes, as you say, simple.

I think the NLT actually makes this even more clear (surprised me quite a bit )

Deuteronomy 6:4
“4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.”

Here we see that ONLY GOD IS THE LORD,

Yes He alone is God, no mention of Jesus being God as well.

and in 1 Cor 8:6 we see that Jesus is our Lord.

Yes.1 Corinthians 11:3

Note: I find it significant to note that the same word (kurios) is used in both verses in the Greek Old and New Testaments.

and is defined as:

1. he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord

a) the possessor and disposer of a thing

1. the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
2. in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor

b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master

c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah