Is Liberal Catholicism Dead?

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goofyjim said:
While we’re all bickering back and forth with judgements about liberalism vs. conservatism, try to remember St. James said mercy triumphs over judgement. Mercy is the on constant theme throughout the history of the Jewish people and Christianity. Otherwise this little globe would have been tossed into the sun many eons ago. And mercy continues. Or it should. I have no expectation of mercy from Jesus if I do not practice it here first.
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Reality check again, thanks. However, is there never and time, or a place, or a means to stand up and say that something is wrong? Is there never a time in scripture or tradition where we are not only permitted, but told to do so? Seriously, do we just say ‘mercy’ and ‘charity’ and let things go no matter what?

I will say, that I for one do not act in a perfect, or even good spirit a good part of the time. I get peeved and fed up, and do not act in an optimal way. Guilty.

Think about it though? Does charity always equate to hugs and bunnies and such?

Really, I’m really asking here. Is it charitable to others or to ourselves to allow errors to continue, including**

Sometimes it is too easy to just say ‘can’t we all just get along’.

Please, someone, do you hear what I’m saying? When is enough enough, and how do we respond?

If this is taken as bickering as well. Guess I’m stuck, and done here, with some applause I’m sure.

Correct me, in a Catholic manner, not just ‘I think’ or Niesche said’ or whatever.

Thanks.
 
ToddM said:
Reality check again, thanks. However, is there never and time, or a place, or a means to stand up and say that something is wrong? Is there never a time in scripture or tradition where we are not only permitted, but told to do so? Seriously, do we just say ‘mercy’ and ‘charity’ and let things go no matter what?**

I will say, that I for one do not act in a perfect, or even good spirit a good part of the time. I get peeved and fed up, and do not act in an optimal way. Guilty.

*Think about it though? Does charity always equate to hugs and bunnies and such? *

Really, I’m really asking here. Is it charitable to others or to ourselves to allow errors to continue, including

Sometimes it is too easy to just say ‘can’t we all just get along’.

Please, someone, do you hear what I’m saying? When is enough enough, and how do we respond?

If this is taken as bickering as well. Guess I’m stuck, and done here, with some applause I’m sure.

Correct me, in a Catholic manner, not just ‘I think’ or Niesche said’ or whatever.

Thanks.
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Everyone wishes liberal catholicism dead. Well there are conservative elements that go against Church teaching as well. So maybe we should ask for the death of both and just have basic Catholicism, neither liberal nor conservative.
 
goofyjim said:
Everyone wishes liberal catholicism dead. Well there are conservative elements that go against Church teaching as well. So maybe we should ask for the death of both and just have basic Catholicism, neither liberal nor conservative.
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What isthe definition of a Catholoic who believes we shuld to all the teachings of the Church?

I think the best advice in this thread is to forget the liberal and conservative labels and go either orthodox and non-orthodox.
 
goofyjim said:
Everyone wishes liberal catholicism dead. Well there are conservative elements that go against Church teaching as well. So maybe we should ask for the death of both and just have basic Catholicism, neither liberal nor conservative.
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Roger bro, I’m tracking, not attacking. But the basic question, 'do we ever?"

You’re right. Truth is who or what it is, no matter what or who it is. I got that.

The Church is who or whatever it is. Got it.

Some have suggested ‘orthodox, unorthodox, and heterodox’.

That dog don’t hunt either. People just then bicker about who is what then.

Catholic is Catholic, whether binary or fuzzy. How is this determined?

Either by recognized authority, or ‘my truth’

Maybe the Catholic church isn’t the ‘true church’ (where then?)

Bottom line though, instead of trying to revise history, Christ, and common sense, just admit you don’t believe the church is the church and try to find the real one.

Good luck finding something that doesn’t eventually self destruct.

To the following, the answers are
a) Yes, and b) any other response is no. You are shucking and jiving. AKA waffling. Pick one. Please. Just quit trying to have your Eucharist and eat it too.

Jesus, is or was? Truth or not?

Peter, rock or not? Yes or no?

Apostolic succession, yes or no?

Bastion and bulwark, Church or not?

Church, visible?

Hey, if you don’t believe in the Catholic faith, alright, be a good whatever, but for everyone’s sake be thorough, and please be honest.

But please, be tolerant? be charitable? just lets us be? and quit trying to shove your church down our throats. Please.

Read the apostles creed. We believe that. If you have made your point, then quit trying to badger us into your point of view.
 
goofyjim said:
Everyone wishes liberal catholicism dead. Well there are conservative elements that go against Church teaching as well. So maybe we should ask for the death of both and just have basic Catholicism, neither liberal nor conservative.
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That’s what I was trying to get at.
 
goofyjim said:
Everyone wishes liberal catholicism dead. Well there are conservative elements that go against Church teaching as well. So maybe we should ask for the death of both and just have basic Catholicism, neither liberal nor conservative.
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I am curious the conservative elements that go against the Church? Maybe you are talking about schismatic groups? They are taken care of then though. Liberal Catholicism has been trying to inundate the Church for 40 years now. We will survive, it won’t happen, especially once that generation dies out. It isn’t the worst thing the Church has ever been against, we have survived worst. I tend to lean towards orthodoxy. I trust the Church and all of it’s teachings.
 
ToddM said:
You got me. I can’t even get 100% positive ID on one now. Why is that?

I also don’t even know what is going to happen tomorrow. Seems like someone said I wasn’t to try either. Do it anyway, shame.

This fictional scenario is based on the supposition that there will *be * a 2108. I wonder if there will be a tomorrow.

Interesting exercise however.
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Yes there will be tomorrow and it will be great! We are on the brink of a new golden age in history. I’ll give you my thoughts on what worship will look like in 2108.

I base my ideas on the following: An integrated world economy, with advances in communications & travel, and increased interdependence will lead to a world civilization with a common currency, common languaages, basic education, and a world govenment. This world civilization (a first in history) will be needed to deal with problems of destruction of the ecosystem, global warming, overpopulation, poverty, diesease and food shortage. In addition there will be a need to control or prevent wars as every nation on earth will have access to or be capable of producing weapons of mass destruction. Technical advances such as fusion energy, space travel and genetic engineering will fundamentally change life from what it is today.Most people living in the 22nd century will be both multi racial and multicultural.

America will follow Europe’s lead in declining religious affiliation with perhaps 10 percent or less attending mass or services weekly. This will be mainly due to beliefs no longer being relevant to modern life.This will create a need for new evangelization and a reinterpretation of who both Man and God are.

I believe the papacy will end and the Catholic Church will be run by a Council. This will allow a reunification with protestants. The worship services in 2108 will be a merger of both protestant and catholic traditions…somewhat like nondenominational churches today. Clergy will be male and female. They will be married. All leaders eg Bishops will be elected by the congregation.

A worship service in 2108 will use computer telecomunications systems ( the future of todays internet) as a way to evangelize individuals and small groups world wide outside the church building. Liturgy will be highly creative, with changing prayers, movie clips, skits, praise dance, poetry, electronic music, 3-d holograms, etc.This will most likely be similar to many of the youth liturgies. .I see churches with large 25’ x 100’ projection screens in front of communion tables/altars which will allow an worship environment that can be instantly changed to fit the mood of a charismatic prayer experience. Spirituality will be emphasized with a wide variety of activities allowing personal participation such as book clubs, scripture groups, prayer teams, art and electronics ministries etc. I see a great deal of outreach and world wide missions projects being worked into the new mass. I see personal communication devices( the future of todays cell phones) being incorporated into the mass/service with electronic interaction between priest/ministers & attendees on line. Vestments will be seen as theatrical costumes made by members of a given church for special occasions. All jewelry will have electronic functions built in as part of artwork.
Sacraments will be minimal with more emphasis placed on teaching. Religious art will fundamentally change from paintings and statuary to moving electronic media. Some religious art will deal with God inside the person…resembling Buddhist Meditation Paintings. Others will deal with new events such as Neil Armstrongs taking communion before being the first man to set foot on the moon. Historic paintings of Christ will be reworked to show life in the first century accurately… A great deal of worship will take place out of doors as a way of witnessing, and as a way to emphasize man’s stewardship of creation. (eg river or ocean baptisms, beach weddings etc.) There will be fundamental changes in the rite of burial with cemetaries being turned tinto nature preserves, with casket/vault/headstone internment being banned. As people will live well past 100 marrige will be for a period of specified years…allowing couples to renew vows or seek new partners While the tridentine rite may be practiced in living museums such as the Vatican…as most Christians will be non european countries our faith will have a native 3d world flavor.
Biggest change: China will be the #1 Christian Nation on earth…
There will be peace and mutual respect among all world faiths.
 
skyryder said:
Yes there will be tomorrow and it will be great! We are on the brink of a new golden age in history. I’ll give you my thoughts on what worship will look like in 2108.

I base my ideas on the following: An integrated world economy, with advances in communications & travel, and increased interdependence will lead to a world civilization with a common currency, common languaages, basic education, and a world govenment. This world civilization (a first in history) will be needed to deal with problems of destruction of the ecosystem, global warming, overpopulation, poverty, diesease and food shortage. In addition there will be a need to control or prevent wars as every nation on earth will have access to or be capable of producing weapons of mass destruction. Technical advances such as fusion energy, space travel and genetic engineering will fundamentally change life from what it is today.Most people living in the 22nd century will be both multi racial and multicultural.

America will follow Europe’s lead in declining religious affiliation with perhaps 10 percent or less attending mass or services weekly. This will be mainly due to beliefs no longer being relevant to modern life.This will create a need for new evangelization and a reinterpretation of who both Man and God are.

I believe the papacy will end and the Catholic Church will be run by a Council. This will allow a reunification with protestants. The worship services in 2108 will be a merger of both protestant and catholic traditions…somewhat like nondenominational churches today. Clergy will be male and female. They will be married. All leaders eg Bishops will be elected by the congregation.

A worship service in 2108 will use computer telecomunications systems ( the future of todays internet) as a way to evangelize individuals and small groups world wide outside the church building. Liturgy will be highly creative, with changing prayers, movie clips, skits, praise dance, poetry, electronic music, 3-d holograms, etc.This will most likely be similar to many of the youth liturgies. .I see churches with large 25’ x 100’ projection screens in front of communion tables/altars which will allow an worship environment that can be instantly changed to fit the mood of a charismatic prayer experience. Spirituality will be emphasized with a wide variety of activities allowing personal participation such as book clubs, scripture groups, prayer teams, art and electronics ministries etc. I see a great deal of outreach and world wide missions projects being worked into the new mass. I see personal communication devices( the future of todays cell phones) being incorporated into the mass/service with electronic interaction between priest/ministers & attendees on line. Vestments will be seen as theatrical costumes made by members of a given church for special occasions. All jewelry will have electronic functions built in as part of artwork.
Sacraments will be minimal with more emphasis placed on teaching. Religious art will fundamentally change from paintings and statuary to moving electronic media. Some religious art will deal with God inside the person…resembling Buddhist Meditation Paintings. Others will deal with new events such as Neil Armstrongs taking communion before being the first man to set foot on the moon. Historic paintings of Christ will be reworked to show life in the first century accurately… A great deal of worship will take place out of doors as a way of witnessing, and as a way to emphasize man’s stewardship of creation. (eg river or ocean baptisms, beach weddings etc.) There will be fundamental changes in the rite of burial with cemetaries being turned tinto nature preserves, with casket/vault/headstone internment being banned. As people will live well past 100 marrige will be for a period of specified years…allowing couples to renew vows or seek new partners While the tridentine rite may be practiced in living museums such as the Vatican…as most Christians will be non european countries our faith will have a native 3d world flavor.
Biggest change: China will be the #1 Christian Nation on earth…
There will be peace and mutual respect among all world faiths./QUOTE

Transhumanevangelism? I must have taken so many crazy pills I forgot that I took them.

You may be right. Our ways are not His ways, our Heaven…

I can see the possibility. Difference is you seem overjoyed at the thought.

You won’t, of course, be able to agree to disagree, will you? Your religion, whatever it is, won’t allow you to leave us in peace, out of respect, will it?

If you just wanted to post (your?) Utopian visions, why the pretext?
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Glad you enjoyed the novelty! Remember God gave us 2 legs.
A left and a right. If a person has only one leg he/she is crippled.
You hop around in circles. You trip or fall and can’t get up. Doing ordinary tasks are slow and difficult. Navigation over rough terrain is limited. If you fall in the water, it is hard to swim and easy to drown. But if a person has two legs, they can compete in the Olympics: run sprints, swim like fish, dive, climb the tallest mountains and dance on ice like angels! In short no limits.
All institutions has both right and left wings, conservative and liberal participants. Like the body, one is lost without the other.
Each has valid gifts and beliefs. Each has unique abilities.
So let us celebrate our differences, and unite our strengths to do great things for the Glory of God!

Peace out Bro! Been Good Hangin wit U.
 
JudieK said:
Why can’t those pushing for liberal Catholicism just join the Episcopal Church? It already has everything they are dreaming for, plus more! Leave the Catholic Church alone!

*** A disclaimer… I don’t want anyone to leave the Catholic Church. I would never want anyone to go without the grace of the sacraments! But if they insist on doing violence to the Church, for the protection of the flock they should leave. It seems like a pride issue… instead of going to a church that already embraces the things they value so much, they insist on taking down the “Goliath” of the Catholic Church, just for the satisfaction of it!!

If you think the Church is so wrong, why stay?🤷
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Truth may give authority; but authority is not truth. In the words of St. Theresa of Avilla: “The road to Hell is paved with the bald heads of Bishops” When leadership or other members of the faith are in error one morally needs to make an effort to correct it; then you leave the matter in the hands of God. Authority without a system of checks and balances is Tyranny. As Lord Acton said in his writings on the Papacy: “Absolute power; corrupts absolutely.” Men are not lemmings that follow leaders over cliffs.
 
skyryder said:
Truth may give authority; but authority is not truth. In the words of St. Theresa of Avilla: “The road to Hell is paved with the bald heads of Bishops” When leadership or other members of the faith are in error one morally needs to make an effort to correct it; then you leave the matter in the hands of God. Authority without a system of checks and balances is Tyranny. As Lord Acton said in his writings on the Papacy: “Absolute power; corrupts absolutely.” Men are not lemmings that follow leaders over cliffs.
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St. Theresa of Avila. Don’t tell me, wait…Southern Baptist right?
 
skyryder said:
Truth may give authority; but authority is not truth. In the words of St. Theresa of Avilla: “The road to Hell is paved with the bald heads of Bishops” When leadership or other members of the faith are in error one morally needs to make an effort to correct it; then you leave the matter in the hands of God. Authority without a system of checks and balances is Tyranny. As Lord Acton said in his writings on the Papacy: “Absolute power; corrupts absolutely.” Men are not lemmings that follow leaders over cliffs.
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She did? Can you give us a link?

Also can you give us a link showing that Lord Acton was refering to the Pope?

You are just making this up as you go along, arent you?
 
skyryder said:
Truth may give authority; but authority is not truth. In the words of St. Theresa of Avilla: “The road to Hell is paved with the bald heads of Bishops” When leadership or other members of the faith are in error one morally needs to make an effort to correct it; then you leave the matter in the hands of God. Authority without a system of checks and balances is Tyranny. As Lord Acton said in his writings on the Papacy: “Absolute power; corrupts absolutely.” Men are not lemmings that follow leaders over cliffs.
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I follow God he works through the Church. I feel at peace with that. I am a smart woman, very intuitive. No uneasiness with me when it comes to the True Church… Man is man. I am wise enough to know the difference.
 
Is the time better spent distrusting and mistrusting everything and everyone, all the time?

Is there any authority outside of autonomy?

Is ‘my’ Holy Spirit ‘better’ than ‘yours’ ?

There has got to be a limit. This is crazy.

Am I going to go into a shooting match with people who are vastly more qualified than myself?

Who exactly is to say who else is wrong in the Church?

Are there no qualified people who may call foul?

If so, are they?

What about us poor schmucks who do not have the resources to successfully engage an enemy, especially when the assumption may be reversed.

What if I am the enemy? Could it be that I am wrong?

Basic point. Faith. If I, for one, could figure it out myself, why would I need any church, or Christ for that matter?

Isn’t that a basic thing? For me, this is impossible. I’m just not that smart. I don’t think any other human being is either.
 
ToddM said:
That was some creepy timing. Sounds like someone I used to ‘know’
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Everybody serves somebody else.

There is no absolute autonomy.

That’s the starting point.

Priests serve the Church.

Husbands serve their wives.

Politicians serve the public (ideally).

Buddhists serve the Buddha.

Christians serve Christ.

We all serve in different ways –
liberally, conservatively, moderately,
and, of course,
my favorite,
eccentrically.
 
SedesDomi said:
Everybody serves somebody else.

There is no absolute autonomy.

That’s the starting point.

Priests serve the Church.

Husbands serve their wives.

Politicians serve the public (ideally).

Buddhists serve the Buddha.

Christians serve Christ.

We all serve in different ways –
liberally, conservatively, moderately,
and, of course,
my favorite,
eccentrically.
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That’s nice.
 
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