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Ignatius
Guest
You’re not sure that The Word of God is right?
If you want to be a Christian of any kind, especially a Catholic, you need to accept the Bible as The Word of God.
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If you want to be a Christian of any kind, especially a Catholic, you need to accept the Bible as The Word of God.
J
JRKH
Guest
Good
Good
Good
While Wisdom may not be Love, Love is most certainly Wisdom if that Love is the Love of God (not natural or sensual love).
Wisdom without Love is easily distracted and corrupted. Wisdom with God’s Love is never corrupted.
Since proper Love and Proper Wisdom are inseperable as you say then are not necessarily “different” attributes in a totally integrated God.
Overall though I think you have it pretty well laid out. Now just go forth and Live it.
Have you read any of St Catherines writings yet?
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
They are two aspects of the completely intigrated God and also the completely virtuous Christian.James:
What is that one and the same thing of which Love and Wisdom are two aspects? Is it Virtue itself, or do you have a different name for this Matriarch of the virtues?
I keep trying to get you to see that you cannot seperate these things just like you can’t seperate the components of a painting once they become part of the canvas. The paint in all it’s colors, turpentine, the brushstokes, the talent of the painter and all else that go into creating a beautiful and compelling picture cannot be taken apart and examined in isolation from the whole. The Painting, that is made up of those component parts is more meaningful, more fulfilling, more beautiful than the components ever could be.
Maybe you and I just look at things too much differently. I am too much the “holistic”, the “mystic”, and you are too much the analytic, the reasoner.
I only know that Love cannot be seperated from Wisdom.
I only know that Christ told us that the greatest commandments are to Love.
I only Know that His commandment just before the ascention was that we Love one another.
I only know that St Paul says that without Love we are nothing.
Start from Love and all else will be given in Gods time and according to our needs.
Peace
James
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Marie5890
Guest
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spockrates
Guest
P07:Dear Spock,
my wife and I are not very opstimistic about my wisdom.
I guess each of the virtues you mention has much to do with knowledge.
But …
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge
the love of Christ surpasses knowledge.
I think the passage you mentioned deserves continued examination. Yes, I do agree that God most certainly loves all who do not reject His love. And yes, it is an easy question to answer that I asked, for to be loved by God is better than to just grasp how wide and long and high and deep is His Love. But isn’t that the point of what Saint Paul was saying? Isn’t he saying that receiving the Love of God surpasses merely knowing about His Love?
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spockrates
Guest
But is not the message of the Bible also Justice?One cannot have Faith without Love!
One cannot have Hope without Love?
If you were ask me to give the message of the entire Bible in a single word…
THAT WORD WOULD BE “LOVE”:extrahappy:
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
(Jude 1:7)
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:14-15)
And is not the message of the Bible also Wisdom?
My son, if you accept my words
and store up my commands within you,
turning your ear to wisdom
and applying your heart to understanding,
and if you call out for insight
and cry aloud for understanding,
and if you look for it as for silver
and search for it as for hidden treasure,
then you will understand the fear of the LORD
and find the knowledge of God.
For the LORD gives wisdom,
and from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
(Proverbs 2:1-6)
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
(James 1:5)
Is there not a trinity of virtue expressed within Sacred Scripture, Pat?
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spockrates
Guest
Agreed, it WAS for Love!
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
(1 John 4:10)
But was it not according to Wisdom that God the Father carried out this plan? Or do you think sending His one and only Son to die for you and me was unwise, Marie?
Yes, it was for Love that Christ died for you and me. But do you think it was unwise for Him to pray the following?
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
(Luke 22:42)
Yes, I agree. But God said that Solomon was the wisest man. Jesus, perhaps, is the exception to this, for He was the God-Man. Don’t you think?You made the comment a few posts to this that King Solomon was the wisest man ever…I beg to differ…
I say it was and IS Christ…
Yes, can someone please God if she is unwise in the way she loves?The emphasis of His ministry was to love and to serve our fellow human beings as He did…
The emphasis was not so much about wisdom. He certainly didnt chose wise men to be His apostles.
Look to the Gospels, not to Proverbs.
Just a thought.
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, I believe it was wise for Christ to obey the Father, Marie. So that tells me it is wise to love, not that the virtue of Wisdom is the same as the virtue of Love.Was it wise of Christ to sacrifice Himself for us because of His great love?
Isn’t it true that to ask, “Isn’t God’s Love wise?” is like asking, “What does the color blue sound like?” Isn’t such a question is a confusion of categories–like comparing apples to carrots? Love is not Wisdom, I think; neither is Wisdom the same as Love. But please don’t take my word for it–the Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates that the virtue of Love is a theological virtue, and the virtue of wisdom is an intellectual virtue, and a theological virtue is not the same as an intellectual one.
Wisdom is the virtue that we exercise to think, speak and act wisely. Love is the virtue that we exercise to think, speak and act lovingly. Although they work together, they should not be confused with one another. Wisdom is not the very same virtue as Love, don’t you think?
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Cristian_B
Guest
I believe that someone answered the original poster’s question but I’ll answer it as well.
Love is the greatest because without love, we wouldn’t have hope and neither faith. God’s Son came and died for us because of love, and with His death hope appeared. Our faith in Him would be useless if He wouldn’t have died, and He died because of love. So faith and hope would be useless without His love. Besides, God is love. Because He loved us we have faith and hope.
Love is the greatest because without love, we wouldn’t have hope and neither faith. God’s Son came and died for us because of love, and with His death hope appeared. Our faith in Him would be useless if He wouldn’t have died, and He died because of love. So faith and hope would be useless without His love. Besides, God is love. Because He loved us we have faith and hope.
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spockrates
Guest
Agreed, CB!
But would we receive God’s love were He to never reveal the truth to us about His love? Before one can have faith, one must know what the truth is in which one should put one’s faith, don’t you think? Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims have faith, yet one might argue that they do not yet have God’s love and eternal life. Isn’t this because they are ignorant of the truth? And what makes one knowledgeable of the truth, if not Wisdom?
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Cristian_B
Guest
I was talking about the greatest of those three. The Truth teaches us to love, so the Truth is above everything else. But you can’t have the Truth and not love, neither have faith in Jesus Christ and neither have hope. It is true that without wisdom we wouldn’t have neither of these.
But may I say something? It doesn’t matter which is greater because you must have all of those in order to have eternal life. You can’t be wise and ignore the Truth. You can’t know the Truth and not love. You cannot love Christ and not have hope and faith in Him. If you fail to have one of these… the “pyramid” collapses. Am I wrong?
But may I say something? It doesn’t matter which is greater because you must have all of those in order to have eternal life. You can’t be wise and ignore the Truth. You can’t know the Truth and not love. You cannot love Christ and not have hope and faith in Him. If you fail to have one of these… the “pyramid” collapses. Am I wrong?
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spockrates
Guest
Sounds right to me! Love is greater than Faith and Hope. Now we’re trying to discover if it is greater than Wisdom and Justice.
I suppose, though, that even if we don’t determine what virtue is the greatest, God will still work it all for our good–for we will certainly be wiser about Love, as well as about Wisdom and the other virtues. At least, that is my Hope, and my purpose.
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spockrates
Guest
That I do, Ignatius! I submit to the authority of Sacred Scripture and believe that Love is greater than Faith and Hope. I also submit to Holy Writ and believe that nothing–not even Love–compares to Wisdom.
For wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
(Proverbs 8:11)
Do submit you, too? If not, why not?
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spockrates
Guest
OK, I think I’m beginning to see what you mean: Love is a kind (or type) of Wisdom. That is, not all Wisdom is Love, but all Love is Wisdom. Is this what you are saying?
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Marie5890
Guest
No I dont think it was unwise, but I dont think wisdom was they primary reason for sending Him. I think Love was the reason He came for us, not Wisdom. Like you and other have suggested they are different. But can co-exist.Agreed, it WAS for Love!
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
(1 John 4:10)
But was it not according to Wisdom that God the Father carried out this plan? Or do you think sending His one and only Son to die for you and me was unwise, Marie?
No, why would it be unwise. Wisdom and Love can co-exist with Love being the greater of the two.
God is pleased when we love, even if it is unwise. God can be displeased with the wise of there is no love.
Was it Wise of the widow to give up her the “widow’s mite”? Did she do it in wisdom or did she do it in love. I say for love of God, not for wisdom of God.
He did say that there was none greater born of woman than John the Baptist. Sooo does that make John greater than Solomon? Can Solomon be the wisest of men and still be less than John the Baptist?Yes, I agree. But God said that Solomon was the wisest man. Jesus, perhaps, is the exception to this, for He was the God-Man. Don’t you think?
Interesting thoughts to ponder?
Yep. Most certainly. God is pleased by the faith we exercise in Him.Yes, can someone please God if she is unwise in the way she loves?
Can we exercise faith in Him w/o wisdom?
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Marie5890
Guest
Actually I disagree. One does not need to know truth (and thus need wisdom) before they can exercise faith in Christ.Agreed, CB!
Before one can have faith, one must know what the truth is in which one should put one’s faith, don’t you think? Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims have faith, yet one might argue that they do not yet have God’s love and eternal life. Isn’t this because they are ignorant of the truth? And what makes one knowledgeable of the truth, if not Wisdom?
And I think that is the difference. As Christians we are not told to just “have faith” but to “have faith in Christ”
Hindus and Muslims have faith, but not faith in Christ.
Its possible to have faith in all kinds of things.
But that is not the same as having faith in Christ.
Without faith in Christ there is no pleasing God, right?
M
Marie5890
Guest
I have another thought to add to the mix.
Christ chose 12 men to be His apostles. Were these men wise? Was Christ wise in whom He chose?
Things that make you go “hhhmmmmm”
Christ chose 12 men to be His apostles. Were these men wise? Was Christ wise in whom He chose?
Things that make you go “hhhmmmmm”
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spockrates
Guest
Yes, I agree, Marie! Love was God’s motivation to act. But I’m thinking Wisdom was God’s method of action–for He acted according to a perfectly wise plan.
Yes, I agree.
Jesus also said that the Father was greater than He, yet they are both God. The Father, I suppose, is greater than the Son in authority, but not essence. John the Baptist, perhaps, was greater than Solomon in purpose, but not in Wisdom.He did say that there was none greater born of woman than John the Baptist. Sooo does that make John greater than Solomon? Can Solomon be the wisest of men and still be less than John the Baptist?
Interesting thoughts to ponder?
The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. So God said to him, "Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be.
(1 Kings 3:10-12)
I’d say that we can try to exercise faith without Wisdom, but are likely to fail–for Wisdom is the virtue by which we obtain the truth, including the truth about what God desires. Don’t you think?Yep. Most certainly. God is pleased by the faith we exercise in Him.
Can we exercise faith in Him w/o wisdom?
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Marie5890
Guest
Actually I disgree. I think the virture is Faith by which we obtain Truth. Not Wisdom.
I think the Apostles obtained Truth because of their Faith, not because of their Wisdom.
In His ministry Christ emphasized faith, not wisdom.
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spockrates
Guest
Potentially wise, if not practically so!
At any rate, they became wise, didn’t they? Otherwise, why believe anything they wrote if it is all unwise and untrue? Isn’t that what the Wisdom of God is, Mary? The ability to discern, with God’s help, the truth? Aren’t we supposed to worship God in both Love and truth (or Wisdom)?
Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
(John 4:21-24)
My thought, Mary, is that Love is important, but so is Wisdom. For Love empowers us to worship God in Spirit, but Wisdom enables us worship to God in truth. Both are necessary; don’t you agree?
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