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BobCatholic
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And how to attain that?
Precisely. Not everyone gets that kind of grace which overcomes imperfections. God holds back for the rest of us. Imperfections are proof of grace withheld.
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Bradski
Guest
There are others, unfortunately, who think exactly that.
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fbl9
Guest
Killing one’s self a martyr does not make
Getting killed because of one’s violent actions a martyr does not make.
A martyr is an innocent person getting killed for what they believe in.
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Vico
Guest
Final repentance is having the state of sanctifying grace at the moment of death. One that has received sanctifying grace through the worthy reception of the sacraments has sufficient grace to maintain the state of grace so can attain final repentance, but it would require special graces to avoid all venial sins. It is not necessary to be free from venial sin to have final repentance. Both mortal and venial sin are imperfect acts, therefore one does not have to be perfect attain the Beatific Vision.
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Vico
Guest
Beliefs vary in the Orthodox Churches (for example Toll Houses). The Byzantine Catholic accepts the Catholic dogmas of faith on the issue, and the Byzantine liturgical prayers for the deceased have no mention of purgatory. Consider the Holy See statement on infants that die without baptism: there is hope for them, yet nothing definitive is known. We do have the Catholic dogma that we cannot know the final state of someone without divine revelation. So we may pray for all, not knowing their final disposition.
Some (or many) Orthodox would not accept the Catholic teaching of merit required for the Beatific Vision, nor on indulgences, nevertheless we pray in common for the deceased.
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WingsOfEagles
Guest
We have free will, but only a certain path leads towards Salvation. You can totally choose between apple and pumpkin pie though and it won’t affect your salvation (just avoid devil’s food cake). 
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BobCatholic
Guest
Since I don’t know when my moment of death is, it is impossible for me to get at final penitence, until I am close to death.
The Catholic faith disagrees with you on this point. One must be perfect to enter heaven and to attain the Beatific Vision. Otherwise, we go to purgatory, if we are in a state of grace with imperfections.
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Vico
Guest
You mean at the moment that it is experienced we must be perfect, not when attained. Attain is" succeed in achieving" which we do with death in sanctifying grace, when we are actually assured of heaven, even if purgatorial state occurs.
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BobCatholic
Guest
And suppose one is not perfect at the time of death because God has denied them the ability to be perfect? Purgatory is their lot, no choice, no way to avoid it.
Tell me, what’s wrong with the picture of demanding people be perfect then denying them the grace to do so?
Yes, I know heaven is assured after purgatory, but I don’t want to go to purgatory!!! It is a horrible place!
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Vico
Guest
There is no demand that a person must be perfect to be eternally in heaven. A person can be free from attachment to all sin, even venial sin, if the effort is made, and this is always through the grace of God. That does not imply that venial sins will not occur throughout the lifetime.
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BobCatholic
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That’s false and goes against Catholic teaching.
Christ says “Be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect.”
Revelation says “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven.”
The Church teaches that if we die with venial sins or attachment to even the slightest sin, we go to purgatory. We must be perfect to enter heaven. Otherwise, purgatory is our lot.
And if God doesn’t help, game over. Purgatory here I come (and that’s the best I can hope for!)
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Vico
Guest
God always helps, but it is not always taken.
Purgatory is not the best you can hope for. To say that is to predict the future without the ability to do so. Yes, to enter heaven requires purification, but not to attain heaven, which the just then attain.
The Catholic dogmas of faith show that the just will be in heaven and that this is determined immediately at death:
- Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the state of grace. (De fide.)
- The souls of the just which in the moment of death are free from all guilt of sin and punishment for sin, enter into Heaven. (De fide.) * The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. (De fide.)
- The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell. (De fide.)
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BobCatholic
Guest
I’m not stupid. I ask for the help. I want the help. I don’t get the help.
Unless a miracle from God happens, I’m doomed to just be the same imperfect me I am now, unable to grow in holiness because I am too weak to do anything on my own. Since I have a self, that means I can’t even know if I’m in a state of grace.
This is perfection.
Unless God gives me a miracle, these two are my only choices. Since I have a self, the second one is more likely.
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Vico
Guest
The help given is from grace, and if one says no grace is received but yet has worthily received a sacrament, then that directly contradicts a dogma of Catholic faith.
I see you agree with the Church that one cannot do anything to merit on their own, as the gift of grace is necessary for a person to remain free from sin.
I think may need purification in purgatory state, however one has until death to work on detachment from all sin. Short of divine revelation we simply do not know if a miracle will occur or not before death.
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BobCatholic
Guest
But what kind of grace is received from the sacraments? Is it the grace for me to overcome imperfections? I question that.
I know that the grace to have one’s venial sins forgiven by Eucharist, mortal by confession - yes, grace is received for that.
Without God’s help, I can’t do that. I’m stuck. That’s why I need the grace to overcome my imperfections.
Correct. That uncertainty is horrible for me. A part of me wants to go to Saudi Arabia to preach the Gospel so I can die a bloody martyr’s death and finally make God happy. I don’t entertain this thought often because I have a wife and kid to take care of.
I’m worried I’ll never be able to make God happy.
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Vico
Guest
Sacramental grace is what is needed to remain free from mortal sin and to overcome venial sin and to become free from attachments from sin. Catechism
1863 … However venial sin does not set us in direct opposition to the will and friendship of God; it does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable.
1472 … every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. …
1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God’s grace is not alone. “The life of each of God’s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.”
Why do you concentrate on one verse of scripture ignoring another?
John 16:33
DRC:
These things I have spoken to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you shall have distress: but have confidence, I have overcome the world.
NABRE:
I have told you this so that you might have peace in me. In the world you will have trouble, but take courage, I have conquered the world.
RSVCE:
I have said this to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
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BobCatholic
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And the red is what I concentrate on. The red part is guaranteed in life. I don’t get peace from the red. Yes, Christ overcame the world. He still hasn’t opened up the Garden of Eden yet. Nor has he redeemed our bodies yet (Romans 8:23) - he’s holding back.
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Vico
Guest
The Garden of Eden is past. The New Jerusalem is the end for for the faithfully departed (Rev. 21:1-2).
Everything the God does is out of love. Saints receive greater reward in heaven based upon their merit, per the scripture. It is intended to be this way, in this way we “partake of the sufferings of Christ”.
Luke 6:22-23
"Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. "Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.
1 Peter 4
12 Dearly beloved, think not strange the burning heat which is to try you, as if some new thing happened to you; 13 But if you partake of the sufferings of Christ, rejoice that when his glory shall be revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you be reproached for the name of Christ, you shall be blessed: for that which is of the honour, glory, and power of God, and that which is his Spirit, resteth upon you. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or a railer, or a coveter of other men’s things. 16 But if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name. 17 For the time is, that judgment should begin at the house of God. And if first at us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the gospel of God? 18 And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them also that suffer according to the will of God, commend their souls in good deeds to the faithful Creator.
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BobCatholic
Guest
The Garden of Eden was paradise, a symbol of having a personal relationship with God, being his friend, while being on earth. If that is past, then there’s no way for me to ever have a personal relationship with God.
I have no choice but to only have a corporate relationship with God.
And until then, it is suffering time, with zero guarantee that I’ll be able to make it to that New Jerusalem.
Correct. The problem is that there is no guarantee that one will be rewarded for their sufferings partook with the sufferings of Christ.
One could spend a lifetime serving God, then fall down at the last minute prior to death and then spend all eternity in hell.
Or like me, be prevented from having a personal relationship with God, then when I die, I’ll hear those dreaded words “Go away you evildoer, I do not know you.”
Doesn’t matter if I do unite my sufferings with those of Christ. Doesn’t matter if I partake of the sacraments. Nothing I do does matter until I get that personal relationship with God, which is unobtainable for me. He doesn’t want me.
I think God looks at my sufferings and laughs and rejects the offering.
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Vico
Guest
No, the Catechism teaches otherwise. The personal relationship is prayer. You can do that right now and work to obtain as many partial indulgences as possible.
2558 “Great is the mystery of the faith!” The Church professes this mystery in the Apostles’ Creed (Part One) and celebrates it in the sacramental liturgy (Part Two), so that the life of the faithful may be conformed to Christ in the Holy Spirit to the glory of God the Father (Part Three). This mystery, then, requires that the faithful believe in it, that they celebrate it, and that they live from it in a vital and personal relationship with the living and true God. This relationship is prayer.
If you have been baptized and received sanctifying grace, then the only way you can possibly go to hell is by your own free will choice. Yes, that can happen in the last breath.
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