Is poor Catechetics the problem?

[Hesychios]

I was just wondering. For the ex-catholicss here, I mean, not people that were never catholic in the first place.
In one way, it seems like too simple an answer, and in another way, it seems to me to make a lot of sense.

Ive read tons of stories here from ex catholics who now believe they are home. Their criticisms of the Catholic Church vary yet they seem to also echo each other.

Everything from not feeling a ‘‘vibe’’ in the community, to priestly abuse, to too many rules and regulations, to heavens knows what else, and everything in between.

But I can’t help wondering, if these people had been properly, and I mean properly catechised in the beginning, would they have left the church.

Is poor Catechetics the problem?

Poor catechetics is not “the” problem.

I may be “a” problem, probably one of several, and not exclusive to the church under the Pope.

For many, the more they know about what the church teaches the more they want to get out. That’s why priests leave. For people like that better catechesis drives them out.

I think that more than anything else, the credibility of the church is not what it should be. When a person, or an organization loses it’s credibility nothing it proclaims will be taken seriously.

 

[seekdatruth]

poor catechesis is not just a problem for the former catholics, it is a problem for many who are sitting in the pews every sunday. and it will remain a problem until a vibrant, on-fire priest (or even a lay person) breaks up the apathy. but even then the fire is just localized to the area around that person.

catholic radio helps (it was my trigger ). the new evangelization is the modern media tools. but you still have to get people’s attention first. and sadly many casual catholics look at fired up catholics like they are crazy. so pray…

OH MAN, DO I AGREE WITH YOU!!!
It burns me up to see someone sitting next to me in the pew who is just there, doesn’t seem to care, dressed in literally PAJAMAS AND SLIPPERS, TEXTING DURING THE HOMILY, then doesn’t want to shake my hand during the SOP because I’m a stranger, looks at me weird because I still get all teary-eyed during the liturgy thinking about how much God loves me, etc., then because I am not disposed at the moment due to annulment and marriage issues, to receive, I have to watch him/her push past me to go up and receive. I try so hard not to worry about what others are doing, because I need that kind of leeway myself, since i can’t receive and I’d rather others not speculate about what it is I’ve done that’s so bad to be in a mortal state of sin, but man-o-man, it’s just rubbing it in my face! Such is my “cross” or maybe just penance for being bad all the years I was away, but yeah, I agree that Catechism class can be severely lacking, and mine was no exception way back when. That’s another thing: It was 20 years ago, too long IMO. I’m going to RCIA as a refresher, and I was thinking it was going to be just awful and degrading, (another example of bad upbringing, all the kids used to sit and snicker and make fun of the RCIA people, or talk about them like they weren’t as good as us “cradle Catholics” ) and even though I was sympathetic for Catechumen before I went to RCIA the first time, I figured I would be treated like a child. THAT’S SO NOT TRUE! I love it, and wish there wasn’t a Christmas break! In fact, I wish ALL of us adults would go to a class every Sunday, like they do in a lot of Protestant churches. There would simply be no excuse for any of us to be “casual” or ignorant of the *beauty *of the sacraments. That’s right: It’s not just about rules and laws, it’s about APPRECIATION for God’s gift. It’s so beautiful, I’m getting all misty-eyed right now thinking about it.

 

[seekdatruth]

Poor catechetics is not “the” problem.

For many, the more they know about what the church teaches the more they want to get out. That’s why priests leave. For people like that better catechesis drives them out.

That’s not always the case, although from outside, or from a poorly catechized individual, the rules of the CC can be daunting and at times, restrictive, however, the more some of us learn about the catechism and Scripture, the more we come to love and respect the Church.

 

[John7]

Poor catechetics is not “the” problem.

In my case I would agree. Most of the other catechumens in my large parish’s RCIA class don’t seem to be ‘into it’ (my opinion) even though the presentation by our catechist is excellent. I can’t complain though, there are three or four in class besides me who seem to enjoy what they’re learning. IMO its an individual ‘thing’ different people are in different places in their spiritual journeys. I feel like if you really have the motivation, you will learn the catechism well (a grace from the Spirit IMO) no matter how poorly or not it is presented.

 

[Chancellare]

In my case I would agree. Most of the other catechumens in my large parish’s RCIA class don’t seem to be ‘into it’ (my opinion) even though the presentation by our catechist is excellent. I can’t complain though, there are three or four in class besides me who seem to enjoy what they’re learning. IMO its an individual ‘thing’ different people are in different places in their spiritual journeys. I feel like if you really have the motivation, you will learn the catechism well (a grace from the Spirit IMO) no matter how poorly or not it is presented.

I still agree that lack of good Catechesis is the problem. However, there is still a large % that will later abandon the Catechesis because we live in a society that teaches instant gratitification as a preference and abhors sacrifice as an unnecessary evil.

 

[Hesychios]

That’s not always the case, although from outside, or from a poorly catechized individual, the rules of the CC can be daunting and at times, restrictive, however, the more some of us learn about the catechism and Scripture, the more we come to love and respect the Church.

It’s not about rules.

It is about credibility.

When we were all in school, did we dare argue with the chemistry teacher about chemistry? I know I didn’t. I took it at face value because the professor was an authority on the subject, and I was just nothing by comparison. I also did not suspect that the prof was manipulating the facts, or spinning, because of some hidden agenda.

I never challenged the Math teachers either. I believed that they knew what they were talking about and giving it to us straight. I trusted them.

Somehow religion is different. Many people seem to want to pick and choose what to believe about religion, and if the priest is teaching something the “student” is ready to embrace, there is a convert in the making. If not, well it will be forgotten as soon as they walk out the door.

I won’t try to quote the percentages, but large numbers of Catholics in North America do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Huge numbers barely ever make a confession but still queue up for communion. And most of these people are cradle Catholics. To attribute this to poor catechesis is a cop out. If it were that easy to explain we would all have to admit to a colossal failure on the part of the church as an institution.

But we know that (to some extent) the situation in third world countries is reversed: very low percentages of priests, brothers and nuns; lack of funding and very poor facilities lacking heat, light and even doors. Shortages of printed materials and/or low literacy rates. Yet these people can easily be the most devout and sincerely believing. Why?

 

[Chancellare]

It’s not about rules.

I won’t try to quote the percentages, but large numbers of Catholics in North America do not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Huge numbers barely ever make a confession but still queue up for communion. And most of these people are cradle Catholics. To attribute this to poor catechesis is a cop out. If it were that easy to explain we would all have to admit to a colossal failure on the part of the church as an institution.

But we know that (to some extent) the situation in third world countries is reversed: very low percentages of priests, brothers and nuns; lack of funding and very poor facilities lacking heat, light and even doors. Shortages of printed materials and/or low literacy rates. Yet these people can easily be the most devout and sincerely believing. Why?

Consumerism?

 

[HappyRevert]

Absolutely poor catechesis is a big problem. I didn’t realized we believed that the Eucharist was the literal body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus until I was about 30. I did go to CCD and thought I paid attention (although apparently not as well as I thought) because I am curious by nature.

I basically was re-catechized as an adult via Bible study and church programs, and what a blessing it has been! I would say that we were a lost generation (in our 40’s - right after Vatican 2), so great patience is needed.

I worry about many judgmental comments either on this board or in person because people do need to be met where they are. If they are given the chance to explore their faith, and understand why we do the things we do, they would probably (not all of course) comply. As a general observation, sometimes I think we Catholics are a bit rule obsessed and should focus on presenting the why’s and not so much the what’s (e.g. attendance at mass on Sunday is mandatory is the “what”, but the “why” is our love and respect for our Lord as well as the hundreds of other whys).

I always believe (because it has been true for me) that the why’s of our faith naturally lead into the what’s without any effort - because understanding causes natural devotion (yes I guess I’m an optimist but that’s my 2 cents).

 

[RubyT]

I would have to say yes. I am a cradle Catholic but when I was in catechism class all they did was review the bible stories, Noah, Joshua, etc etc. They did not teach us the Church doctrine whatsoever. And the nuns were mean, really mean. The Hell fire and brimstone was all they taught, your soul will be black if you sin. Your a sinner, blah, blah, blah. They never told of the Love of Christ or the message of Jesus. They never explained much at all, just kept telling me if I sinned I was going to burn in hell.

To this day I am not well catechized, but through my own efforts I am learning. Buying from the bookstore, clicking on links at the forum. Growing in spirit everyday. I am learning, there is so much to know, it seems like a lifetime of knowledge to gain. I can never know it all but it sure is fun doing my homework.

Also I think many leave the faith for convenience, its easier to confess directly to God instead of a priest. It is easier to not feel guilt for not attending Mass etc. etc. Many who leave go to other denominations that do not require these things.

I never left the church in my heart, I was absent for many years but I am back now. Trying to catch up and so happy (ecstatic) to be forgiven by Christ for my absence. My first confession after 25 years was glorious.

 

[seekdatruth]

AMEN, Happy and Ruby!!
We should be CCD teachers! lol!!

 

[ralphinal]

My brother was talking to my cousin last week. My cousin commented on how much the Catholic faith had changed in the last 20 years of his life (he is 26). He felt that he was no longer welcome in it.

My brother, in his own way, pointed out that he had never learned the faith in the first place, as his parents were not really Catholic and that he had not been taught the correct faith. What he thought was the Catholic Church was the version that he learned, not the one that had been around since day one. My brother, again in his way, told him that if he was not welcome, it wasn’t because the Church did not want him, but because he did not want the Church.

So you will know, my brother is one who typically uses a four letter word where one is not needed. He is charitable when he calls someone a dumb***, but he calls them one none the less.

It doesn’t make him less wrong…

 

[mfbukowski]

My brother was talking to my cousin last week. My cousin commented on how much the Catholic faith had changed in the last 20 years of his life (he is 26). He felt that he was no longer welcome in it.

My brother, in his own way, pointed out that he had never learned the faith in the first place, as his parents were not really Catholic and that he had not been taught the correct faith. What he thought was the Catholic Church was the version that he learned, not the one that had been around since day one. My brother, again in his way, told him that if he was not welcome, it wasn’t because the Church did not want him, but because he did not want the Church.

So you will know, my brother is one who typically uses a four letter word where one is not needed. He is charitable when he calls someone a dumb***, but he calls them one none the less.

It doesn’t make him less wrong…

This is the typical position of those who seek to establish that the church has not changed. “It was always the same, you just weren’t taught properly”. Those of us who were taught 50 years ago or more know differently. But it is a convenient strategy for those who seek to revise history. Eventually, there is no one left to complain about it.

 

[po18guy]

This is the typical position of those who seek to establish that the church has not changed. “It was always the same, you just weren’t taught properly”. Those of us who were taught 50 years ago or more know differently. But it is a convenient strategy for those who seek to revise history. Eventually, there is no one left to complain about it.

Oh, please! This coming from the LDS which is almost unrecognizable from its early days! Talk about change. Lotta street cred there…

 

[ralphinal]

This is the typical position of those who seek to establish that the church has not changed. “It was always the same, you just weren’t taught properly”. Those of us who were taught 50 years ago or more know differently. But it is a convenient strategy for those who seek to revise history. Eventually, there is no one left to complain about it.

Then please show something that has been changed in the last 50 years. Not nuanced, not expounded upon, but outright changed. Oh, and please make sure it is a matter of faith and morals, not discipline.

 

[Chancellare]

This is the typical position of those who seek to establish that the church has not changed. “It was always the same, you just weren’t taught properly”. Those of us who were taught 50 years ago or more know differently. But it is a convenient strategy for those who seek to revise history. Eventually, there is no one left to complain about it.

No.
People change. Not Mother Church.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Poor instruction is often a problem, even for those currently active in the faith. One recent example I personally witnessed was at the celebration of the Immaculate Conception when our Pastor felt obligated to advise those who were not aware of it, that the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary and not Jesus. If the Pastor needs to explain that to those that are coming to Mass on Holy Days of Obligation, there’s a problem.

Other examples crop up right here in CAF. For example, there was an ex-Catholic Mormon who claimed in another thread that Catholicism was like “high school” while being a Mormon was like “university” ~ this was an attempt to draw some sort of analogy of the differences in seriousness and commitment to the faith. The very example shows that the person’s previous Catholicism was obviously very shallow and weak and that the person who made the claim was not even aware of the active and serious practice of the Catholic faith.

 

[emarc]

If this is true, it is either because the church has not structured itself properly, or the members are not interested in learning.

One hour at mass a week is not enough to learn doctrine and attend mass.

So you either have to have “required” (highly recommended, interesting sunday school) or get members motivated to do it themselves.

As a Mormon, rank and file members attend 3 hours per week and all three hours are pretty much doctrinal instruction. Compared to virtually NO doctrinal instruction for catholics except the few minutes they may get in mass – well you can see the difference

it’s incorrect to say one hour a week since CC holds mass/readings everyday. CC has the fullness of truth, inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit since Pentecost. btw, have you heard of thomas smith, a former mormon missionary? no offense but pls get his c.d., very powerful testimony.
God bless.

 

[mfbukowski]

… very powerful testimony.
God bless.

You haven’t heard mine!

 

[mfbukowski]

No.
People change. Not Mother Church.

More precisely, the church changes to agree with its people.

But the document goes beyond strictly theological opinions. It repeatedly refers to the “sensus fidelium” – the sense of the faithful – to illustrate how Christians increasingly reject the idea that the vision of God would be denied to innocent babies.

One reason the Second Vatican Council rejected attempts to strengthen teaching against the salvation of unbaptized infants was that bishops felt it was “not the faith of their people,” the document said.

It referred to an important teaching of Vatican II, which said that the whole body of the faithful shares in Christ’s prophetic office and “cannot err in matters of belief.”

To support its conclusions on limbo, the theological commission’s document also cited the need for the church to read the “signs of the times” in order to better understand the Gospel.

I have to repeat that one quote:

"One reason the Second Vatican Council rejected attempts to strengthen teaching against the salvation of unbaptized infants was that bishops felt it was “not the faith of their people,” the document said."

In other words, they changed the doctrine of limbo because the people didn’t believe in it.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702310.htm

 

[mfbukowski]

Then please show something that has been changed in the last 50 years. Not nuanced, not expounded upon, but outright changed. Oh, and please make sure it is a matter of faith and morals, not discipline.

religioustolerance.org/limbo2.htm

And if you want to see how this doctrine “evolved” over the centuries, go here:

newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm

So the church never changes? I’m sure you will come up with some excuse about how these are not “changes” Good luck.