Is Pope Francis reaching out to the prodigals and are some of us feeling like the older brother?

[Sirach2]

Whoa. Another very false dichotomy. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. That implies universality. “The others” are not “more important” than ourselves because we are also those others. His communication with members of the Church is at least as important as it is with “others.” As every Pope has always known, his job first and foremost is to lead the Church Militant (us) in the battle for souls.

I believe Brendan was speaking more about the Shepherd who leaves the 99 in the desert and goes after the one that is lost. We heard this gospel September 15th. On the surface, it seems rather novel that anyone would light a lamp and search for a lost coin at night, rather than begin the search during the day when light is bright. Also seemingly foolish to call her friends to rejoice that a thing of little value (a coin) was found. Similarly, a good shepherd will not leave the flock unattended so that others may attack them during the shepherd’s absence. It demonstrates the extremity of God’s care for those who are lost.

 

[simple_soul]

The pope certainly isn’t changing any doctrines.

Just yesterday with a secular Jewish client, she read an editorial how the pope has it right about sex and Syria, Putin has it right about Syria, but not our American Congress.

I explained a little as I could to her reaction to the New York Times article within my professional boundaries, but could see, as well as the rest of the world, that irregardless, they likewise have misread the pope’s comments, and read what they want to believe.

The Church is still very successful in drawing people to its membership. But the problem is that in some ways it has become too big. The Church is constantly drawing in new peopls and cultures to impart the fullness of life and teaching in Christ…but there is a church culture people fall into, that is a manner of relating.

Many think the Western Church, primarily that of the first world countries, is quite bureaucratic in its behavior and way of relating. Francis is simply calling us to renew our faith in Christ, and to live more in His grace, power, and witness to those we encounter in daily life.

I also note that you seldom hear Church professionals in all ranks, speak personably of Our Lord when communicating among the faithful truths of our faith that go beyond intellect and reflection, into a type of communication that witnesses a living, personable and dynamic faith just within the world of Catholics.

I think Pope Francis is not aware of how much sacrifice people of faith go through in promoting the sanctity of human life here in America, the mother lode, the Evil Empire so to speak of the free sex culture – free and casual sex, shameless reference to contraception, the absence of recognizing the family as the foundation of society, the promotion of these beliefs and practices into the world, including abortion and pornography.

There are now to this date many abortion centers closing, the lives of infants being saved, by the heroic devotion of people for life. I don’t think the pope is that aware of this, the suffering many women and children go through because of the great sex obsessed culture we live in, where one hardly ever hears from the pulpit talks opposing contraception, abortion, or sexual orientation. ** Instead we hear to uphold all life and serve one another.**

So I think that he may not be aware much of the pro life movement in America and the great sacrifice those who are most active in it have gone through, but addressing more our need to get out of this bureaucratic way of relating to one another, and seek a new life and way for these times in the Lord.

The world is in such need of Christian witness and Christ tells us not to be afraid.

Hi KathleenGee…

I so hope and pray you do not mind me chiming in here…

In the part that I have emphasized, why is it that people seem to not be able to see that it is our very actions of holding up all life and serving one another that speaks loudest against sin? It is how people through God’s Grace, come to see and accept that all life is sacred and that we are all temples of the Trinity and that we should all treasure and respect and have dignity for ourselves and each other. I beleive it is the very action of showing a sinner they are loved and respected and this gives them dignity and that makes them start to respond in like manner. When we give a person love, respect and dignity they start having love, respect and dignity for themselves and then others. I have seen this happen. I am a work in progress from this kind of treatment…it is because I have found people who respect me and give me dignity that I have felt for years that I did not have for myself let alone deserve from anyone else! It is because of them that I have been able to start carring for myself and working toward having some dignity and self respect again. It has helped me to start healing from so much…I am a living testsament to the fact this what we are hearing works!

I know I could be wrong but I beleive that what Jesus Christ is telling us to not be afraid of is the fear of giving love, respect, and dignity to someone whom we do not believe has the right to because of thier sinfulness…I beleive that this is emphasized in the parable of the Good Samaratine and the admonision to love our neighbors as ourselves…

I do not believe it is that Pope Francise does not see how much sacrifice we here in America are sacrificing. I beleive he has a better understanding of it and better insight into it than we here in America do. I beleive he is teaching us a deeper understanding of what the sacrificing should entail and that message is causing us to have a problem with our conscience because we thought we were doing it so right…and so we challenge it because our pride is wounded and we come up with all kinds of reasons as to why it hurts and never stop to think maybe he’s right…maybe we could be doing things in a more Christ-like manner…

Anyway sorry to address your post in particular. It really is just some thoughts that this thread and a few others have raised and I thought I would throw them out there to help anyone who may be struggling with these issues right now…I wi just end with saying I so agree with you that the world is in so much need of Christian whiteness but to me it is the kind of Christian whiteness that Pope Francis is calling us to have…and I beleive he is inviting us to walk this whiteness more deeply wih him…

As always I hope and pray they helped and made sense…

 

[Starrsmother]

The pope certainly isn’t changing any doctrines.

Just yesterday with a secular Jewish client, she read an editorial how the pope has it right about sex and Syria, Putin has it right about Syria, but not our American Congress.

I explained a little as I could to her reaction to the New York Times article within my professional boundaries, but could see, as well as the rest of the world, that irregardless, they likewise have misread the pope’s comments, and read what they want to believe.

The Church is still very successful in drawing people to its membership. But the problem is that in some ways it has become too big. The Church is constantly drawing in new peopls and cultures to impart the fullness of life and teaching in Christ…but there is a church culture people fall into, that is a manner of relating.

Many think the Western Church, primarily that of the first world countries, is quite bureaucratic in its behavior and way of relating. Francis is simply calling us to renew our faith in Christ, and to live more in His grace, power, and witness to those we encounter in daily life.

I also note that you seldom hear Church professionals in all ranks, speak personably of Our Lord when communicating among the faithful truths of our faith that go beyond intellect and reflection, into a type of communication that witnesses a living, personable and dynamic faith just within the world of Catholics.

I think Pope Francis is not aware of how much sacrifice people of faith go through in promoting the sanctity of human life here in America, the mother lode, the Evil Empire so to speak of the free sex culture – free and casual sex, shameless reference to contraception, the absence of recognizing the family as the foundation of society, the promotion of these beliefs and practices into the world, including abortion and pornography.

There are now to this date many abortion centers closing, the lives of infants being saved, by the heroic devotion of people for life. I don’t think the pope is that aware of this, the suffering many women and children go through because of the great sex obsessed culture we live in, where one hardly ever hears from the pulpit talks opposing contraception, abortion, or sexual orientation. Instead we hear to uphold all life and serve one another.

So I think that he may not be aware much of the pro life movement in America and the great sacrifice those who are most active in it have gone through, but addressing more our need to get out of this bureaucratic way of relating to one another, and seek a new life and way for these times in the Lord.

The world is in such need of Christian witness and Christ tells us not to be afraid.

Great thoughts Kathleen–and I’ll only humbly add a couple of my own for whatever they are worth. I’m in my 60’s which if you do the math will tell you that I’m a child of the late 1960’s, the big cultural, musical, sexual, racial and women’s rights generation here in the USA–and I was proudly, happily and quite vested at the time in what I believed to be a great social revolution! This “revolution” encompassed the world of youth at the time–but as with everything american, we took what may have started somewhere else and made it our very own–bigger, wilder, freer, more colorful than anywhere else.

I now look at that time, and see that while much good did happen–in the case of integration for instance–that over all it was a grand experiment gone totally and terribly awry. And now, our kids and grandkids are left with a pendulum that swung far too far in one direction. For the Pope to truly grasp the issues we face in America, he would have to understand our culture and where it came from as well as where it is now. This is not easy for a Jesuit priest from a Latin american country so very different from the USA. He has a rough road to walk in my opinion–not that he can’t walk it and walk it well–but he is going to need some BIG help to be effective in the issues that the american church faces today in my opinion. I hope he will realize this and ask for that help!

 

[Aunt_Raven]

Nowhere in the larger Church in the UK and (to a lesser extent) the USA do I see the self-righteousness of the faithful elder brother :dts: more manifest than in attitudes to the liturgy and spirituality of the Anglican Ordinariate insituted by by Pope Benedict XVI, which is the successor to a quarter-century of the (successful) experiment of the Anglican Use / Pastoral Provision in the USA.

The Ordinariate can be judged by its early fruits; Conversion, “reversion” ( !) and a dynamic example of the New Evangelization and authentic ecumenism. As such it is demonstrably a “new song” of the (unstoppable ) Holy Spirit, and arguably the vehicle for the re-conversion of England and eventually all English-speaking peoples.

 

[Brendan_64]

Whoa. Another very false dichotomy. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth. That implies universality. “The others” are not “more important” than ourselves because we are also those others. His communication with members of the Church is at least as important as it is with “others.” As every Pope has always known, his job first and foremost is to lead the Church Militant (us) in the battle for souls.

We are already within the fold of the Church, we at least have a chance. The souls outside of the Church are those in greatest danger. The role of the Apostles was not simply to tend to the needs of those already within the fold, it was to spread the Word and reach out to all mankind.

I believe that Pope Francis is going after those souls that seem lost, and that his message is aimed, not just at Catholics, but more importantly at the wider, secular world. From the reaction of the world to him, he is certainly making himself heard.

He could spend his time aiming his message primarily at those of us who are already within the Church, but surely he is better trying to cast his net wide to gather more fish, rather than devote his time to looking after the fish that have already been caught?

In his message, and how he is delivering it, there is also an important message for us. Do we sit in an inward-looking circle talking about how bad things are outside the circle, or do we each turn towards the outside world and walk bravely outwards, hoping to increase the size of the circle by inviting and encouraging others to join us?

 

[Brendan_64]

I believe Brendan was speaking more about the Shepherd who leaves the 99 in the desert and goes after the one that is lost.

And, if you have ever been that one lost sheep who has been found, you will know personally how important that parable is.

 

[rfournier103]

While we are ALL sinners, some of us are worse than others. The “others” really ARE the prodigals who have completely turned their backs on God (the Father) and left His house (the Church). It fits very nicely with Luke 15.

As one of these “older brothers” doing my best to live accorning to my Father’s rules in His house, I have no issue with His Holiness appealing to the “prodigals” out there. In fact, THAT’S HIS JOB! Why would I begrudge ANYONE comming back to God and His Church?

Pope Francis is trying desperately to appeal to these stray sheep and get their attention, and succeeding. He’s got people talking and despite what people like Stefani Germanotta (better known as Lady Gaga) think, the Pope IS relevant. Of course, doctrine and teaching can never change, but Francis is sending the message that all are welcome.

I can’t think of any better way to phrase this, but once these prodigals take the bait, perhaps they will take a hard look at their lives and change their ways for the better. How many of us have ever heard that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar? All Francis is doing is putting a big bowl of honey out there. Some prodigals will come back, and some won’t. Some will visit God’s House for the first time, and others will stay away. If Francis’s gentler approach saves one single soul that otherwise wouldn’t have been, his entire pontificate will have been a success!

As always, some will question his methods; but the “theological tough-guy” approach doesn’t work on everyone. We as Christians MUST use any and all ways, tones, and approaches to deliver Christ’s message. That’s the most important thing.

God bless us all.

 

[rfournier103]

We are already within the fold of the Church, we at least have a chance. The souls outside of the Church are those in greatest danger. The role of the Apostles was not simply to tend to the needs of those already within the fold, it was to spread the Word and reach out to all mankind.

I believe that Pope Francis is going after those souls that seem lost, and that his message is aimed, not just at Catholics, but more importantly at the wider, secular world. From the reaction of the world to him, he is certainly making himself heard.

He could spend his time aiming his message primarily at those of us who are already within the Church, but surely he is better trying to cast his net wide to gather more fish, rather than devote his time to looking after the fish that have already been caught?

In his message, and how he is delivering it, there is also an important message for us. Do we sit in an inward-looking circle talking about how bad things are outside the circle, or do we each turn towards the outside world and walk bravely outwards, hoping to increase the size of the circle by inviting and encouraging others to join us?

Agreed!!! The Church isn’t a “members only country club” that meets every Sunday, but rather an ever-growing family whose mission is to EVANGELIZE.

You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Sirach2]

And, if you have ever been that one lost sheep who has been found, you will know personally how important that parable is.

:yyeess: Yes, I am, and yes I know. I hope to spend, not only my earthly life, but also eternity, in thanking and praising Him for calling me home!

 

[felsguy]

While we are ALL sinners, some of us are worse than others. The “others” really ARE the prodigals who have completely turned their backs on God (the Father) and left His house (the Church). It fits very nicely with Luke 15.

As one of these “older brothers” doing my best to live accorning to my Father’s rules in His house, I have no issue with His Holiness appealing to the “prodigals” out there. In fact, THAT’S HIS JOB! Why would I begrudge ANYONE comming back to God and His Church?

Pope Francis is trying desperately to appeal to these stray sheep and get their attention, and succeeding. He’s got people talking and despite what people like Stefani Germanotta (better known as Lady Gaga) think, the Pope IS relevant. Of course, doctrine and teaching can never change, but Francis is sending the message that all are welcome.

I can’t think of any better way to phrase this, but once these prodigals take the bait, perhaps they will take a hard look at their lives and change their ways for the better. How many of us have ever heard that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar? All Francis is doing is putting a big bowl of honey out there. Some prodigals will come back, and some won’t. Some will visit God’s House for the first time, and others will stay away. If Francis’s gentler approach saves one single soul that otherwise wouldn’t have been, his entire pontificate will have been a success!

As always, some will question his methods; but the “theological tough-guy” approach doesn’t work on everyone. We as Christians MUST use any and all ways, tones, and approaches to deliver Christ’s message. That’s the most important thing.

God bless us all.

Well said

.

 

[bcuster]

Before I begin this little piece for reflection, I just want to say that our Moderators have already made it clear that we shouldn’t presume to judge the Pope:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=764882

I wouldn’t be surprised if some recent threads got shut down . . . but that’s not for me to decide, 'nuff said. Now for my “pearls of wisdom,” for whatever they’re worth. :twocents:

I’m a morally “conservative” cradle Catholic. I have the reaction too sometimes - "The Pope said what?!" Although I’m learning to 1) fall back on the good catechesis I received as a child and continued from that time to the present, and 2) go to sources that are Catholic, not secular, for any further clarification I desire.

But here’s the thing - sometimes I have this fear. And if I look at it closely, I see myself, being a very good imitation of the older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. Sometimes I fear the rules won’t be enforced enough, won’t be enforced for someone else, etc. - when I have followed them all my life (mostly) and fought for them and helped explain them to people and all these efforts I’ve made.

And it is my realization, perhaps our Holy Father is like that father in the story Jesus told. He’s out there on the road, looking for ways to reach those prodigal sons and daughters. Am I going to feel all put out and envious and afraid? Or am I going to join in the celebration?

It’s a spiritual test for me. Maybe it is for a lot of us. In my heart of hearts, I don’t think we need to be so fearful. Easier said than done, maybe, but doable. :curtsey:

I usually avoid posting when the numbers get high. I figure that someone has already said enough. However, I must go on record saying the this post gave me pause to think: Am I the older brother?

 

[Corki]

That is a fair point. Different approaches do resonate with different people. But to berate (and in some cases even attack) an approach because it doesn’t particularly resonate with oneself would appear to be a quite self-focussed and selfish thing to do.

I only wanted to point out that it’s equally self-focused to berate or attack someone who has the “nerve” to admit they just don’t understand why people are going nuts over Pope Francis saying the same thing his predecessors said. Or those who fail to get on the “Francis, good, Benedict, bad” bandwagon. And it’s really sad that it happens so often on these forums.

 

[Elizabeth502]

it’s equally self-focused to berate or attack someone who has the “nerve” to admit they just don’t understand why people are going nuts over Pope Francis saying the same thing his predecessors said. Or those who fail to get on the “Francis, good, Benedict, bad” bandwagon. And it’s really sad that it happens so often on these forums.

 

[Brendan_64]

Or those who fail to get on the “Francis, good, Benedict, bad” bandwagon. And it’s really sad that it happens so often on these forums.

Where has anyone said anything like, “Francis, good, Benedict, bad”. I have seen a lot of Catholics praising and getting enthusiastic over Pope Francis (and rightly so) but I where exactly on these forums are these same people claiming that Benedict was bad?

That is simply not the case. Perhaps it is a case that some Catholics who seem to be quite upset that our new Pope is taking a different direction from his predecessor may be placing the reverse of their own feelings upon those who are enthusiastic about Pope Francis?

There are indeed many Catholics who prefer the approach taken by Pope Francis to the approach taken by Pope Benedict, but I have yet to see anyone on this forum, let alone see it often, claiming that Pope Francis is good and Pope Benedict was bad. That simply is not the case at all.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Where has anyone said anything like, “Francis, good, Benedict, bad”.

It’s all over this forum, but especially in Catholic News. I’m not going to link or point out the posts, because I have no intention of giving them any more credence than how they already misrepresent former Popes and their messages.

 

[Brendan_64]

It’s all over this forum, but especially in Catholic News. I’m not going to link or point out the posts, because I have no intention of giving them any more credence than how they already misrepresent former Popes and their messages.

It is not all over this forum!

People are **not **saying “Pope Francis good, Pope Benedict bad”.

Some may be saying, “We love Pope Francis, we love how he does things, we prefer his approach to the approach of Pope Benedict”, but in this they are not deriding Pope Benedict.

If you are going to claim that an attitude of “Pope Francis good, Pope Benedict bad” is as you say “all over this forum” then there should be lots of examples of this that you could quote. Don’t hide behind “I’m not going to link or point out the posts, because I have no intention of giving them any more credence”. If an accusation is made then at least it ought to be backed up with something.

 

[Sirach2]

It’s all over this forum, but especially in Catholic News. I’m not going to link or point out the posts, because I have no intention of giving them any more credence than how they already misrepresent former Popes and their messages.

Oh, I see. You would prefer the FishEaters’ version: bad Francis, wonderful Benedict, and it’s just not happening here. Should I repeat your posts from FE?

 

[severus68]

Oh, I see. You would prefer the FishEaters’ version: bad Francis, wonderful Benedict, and it’s just not happening here. Should I repeat your posts from FE?

 

[severus68]

Where has anyone said anything like, “Francis, good, Benedict, bad”. I have seen a lot of Catholics praising and getting enthusiastic over Pope Francis (and rightly so) but I where exactly on these forums are these same people claiming that Benedict was bad?

That is simply not the case. Perhaps it is a case that some Catholics who seem to be quite upset that our new Pope is taking a different direction from his predecessor may be placing the reverse of their own feelings upon those who are enthusiastic about Pope Francis?

There are indeed many Catholics who prefer the approach taken by Pope Francis to the approach taken by Pope Benedict, but I have yet to see anyone on this forum, let alone see it often, claiming that Pope Francis is good and Pope Benedict was bad. That simply is not the case at all.

I agree.

 

[severus68]

It is not all over this forum!

People are **not **saying “Pope Francis good, Pope Benedict bad”.

Some may be saying, “We love Pope Francis, we love how he does things, we prefer his approach to the approach of Pope Benedict”, but in this they are not deriding Pope Benedict.

If you are going to claim that an attitude of “Pope Francis good, Pope Benedict bad” is as you say “all over this forum” then there should be lots of examples of this that you could quote. Don’t hide behind “I’m not going to link or point out the posts, because I have no intention of giving them any more credence”. If an accusation is made then at least it ought to be backed up with something.

Yes.