Is smacking a child always morally wrong?

[catharina]

Please show where in the Bible or the Catechism where it says corporal punishment is morally wrong.

Your statements and conclusions are not of logic but emotion. Being a parent isn’t easy, we need to pray for the grace to make the right choices for our children. It isn’t about always about warm and fuzzy feelings but making hard choices in the best interest of our child. Spanking my child was not an easy choice, especially with my husband’s back ground as an abused child. I don’t parent based on emotions, and I wasn’t spanking her out of anger or frustration. I was trying to break the spiral of out of control emotions that she couldn’t get under control.

Since you are the one holding a view that is not based on the Bible or on the teaching of the Church, there is no reason why I should have to defend my parenting. God Bless.

The CCC says this:

2223 Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children. They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the “material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones.” [CA 36 § 2] Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them: [1804]

He who loves his son will not spare the rod… He who disciplines his son will profit by him. [Sir 30:1-2] Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. [Eph 6:4]

One quote is from the OT. The next is from the NT. It takes no great leap of the imagination or will to know that we are called to emulate the teachings of the NT. The very word “discipline” when taken from the Latin gives the meanings of learning and teaching. It gives no sense of “punishment” attached to either task.

My bias (and I have one) was reinfoced quite well in the 30+ years I spent raising hundreds of other people’s children in residential settings. Almost without exception, these children were taken from homes where physical punishment was a part of their daily lives. Also I spent a number of years carrying for infants, toddlers and preschoolers who were in confinement in a pediatric skilled nursing unit. All the parents who told the media “I never meant to hurt 'em so bad” probably meant what they said. When someone gives in to physical force as a learning tool aimed at a very SMALL human being, one has not found the best way to teach God’s love. In the context of the skilled-nursing unit, I’ve bathed a dead baby. Have you? Think hard before you strike anyone; as for striking a child, “smack” yourself instead.

 

[catharina]

As for Our Blessed Mother, I can’t begin to imagine that she would ever strike a child - including any little nieces, nephews, neighbors left in her care for a time. The very thought is untenable.

 

[teachccd]

Please show where in the Bible or the Catechism where it says corporal punishment is morally wrong.

Your statements and conclusions are not of logic but emotion. Being a parent isn’t easy, we need to pray for the grace to make the right choices for our children. It isn’t about always about warm and fuzzy feelings but making hard choices in the best interest of our child. Spanking my child was not an easy choice, especially with my husband’s back ground as an abused child. I don’t parent based on emotions, and I wasn’t spanking her out of anger or frustration. I was trying to break the spiral of out of control emotions that she couldn’t get under control.

Since you are the one holding a view that is not based on the Bible or on the teaching of the Church, there is no reason why I should have to defend my parenting. God Bless.

The Bible says to hit our kids and the Church teaches that?? O.K. my mistake… And you’re defensive on your own not by my prompting…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

The CCC says this:

2223 Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children. They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the “material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones.” [CA 36 § 2] Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them: [1804]

He who loves his son will not spare the rod… He who disciplines his son will profit by him. [Sir 30:1-2] Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. [Eph 6:4]

One quote is from the OT. The next is from the NT. It takes no great leap of the imagination or will to know that we are called to emulate the teachings of the NT. The very word “discipline” when taken from the Latin gives the meanings of learning and teaching. It gives no sense of “punishment” attached to either task.

My bias (and I have one) was reinfoced quite well in the 30+ years I spent raising hundreds of other people’s children in residential settings. Almost without exception, these children were taken from homes where physical punishment was a part of their daily lives. Also I spent a number of years carrying for infants, toddlers and preschoolers who were in confinement in a pediatric skilled nursing unit. All the parents who told the media “I never meant to hurt 'em so bad” probably meant what they said. When someone gives in to physical force as a learning tool aimed at a very SMALL human being, one has not found the best way to teach God’s love. In the context of the skilled-nursing unit, I’ve bathed a dead baby. Have you? Think hard before you strike anyone; as for striking a child, “smack” yourself instead.

I could not agree with you more…

 

[teachccd]

As for Our Blessed Mother, I can’t begin to imagine that she would ever strike a child - including any little nieces, nephews, neighbors left in her care for a time. The very thought is untenable.

As is concluded by some posters here, would we say that Jesus was brought up wrong? For heaven’s sake. I raised three children who are upstanding citizens and adhere to our faith as well. I never spanked them and nor did my wife. My second son threw tantrums and drove us to the limits. He is now the best humanity has to offer. He is loving, kind, respects us and authority and loves God with all his heart.

You do not need to spank children. How that worked its way into acceptable behavior is beyond me. And to say that the Bible and Church teach that is rediculous. Quote me Scripture and CCC. And don’t give me the “spare the rod” quote. If you do then pluck out your eye that caused you to sin…teachccd

 

[rayne89]

The CCC says this:

2223 Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children. They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the “material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones.” [CA 36 § 2] Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them: [1804]

He who loves his son will not spare the rod… He who disciplines his son will profit by him. [Sir 30:1-2] Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. [Eph 6:4]

One quote is from the OT. The next is from the NT. It takes no great leap of the imagination or will to know that we are called to emulate the teachings of the NT. The very word “discipline” when taken from the Latin gives the meanings of learning and teaching. It gives no sense of “punishment” attached to either task.

Ok. Neither say corporal punishment is immoral.

I am not talking about beating a child, I am talking about appropriate discipline.You can provoke a child to anger in many ways. Provoking a child to anger is unreasonable punishment whether physical or otherwiser.

 

[catharina]

Ok. Neither say corporal punishment is immoral.

I am not talking about beating a child, I am talking about appropriate discipline.You can provoke a child to anger in many ways. Provoking a child to anger is unreasonable punishment whether physical or otherwiser.

The teaching-learning end of “discipline” does not include “punishment” and that’s my point.

I do agree that a quick swat, smack, hit, slap takes far less time and patience on the part of parents - in the short run anyway. Plus parents who support the “hitting method” of teaching seem to pull back when children become large enough to defend themselves.

It’s almost routine for parents and caregivers who kill a child to protest “I never meant to kill him. I was just teaching him a lesson.” Better to hit never than to risk going too far - or giving apparent approval for hitting to those who WILL go too far.

 

[rayne89]

The teaching-learning end of “discipline” does not include “punishment” and that’s my point.

I do agree that a quick swat, smack, hit, slap takes far less time and patience on the part of parents - in the short run anyway. Plus parents who support the “hitting method” of teaching seem to pull back when children become large enough to defend themselves.

It’s almost routine for parents and caregivers who kill a child to protest “I never meant to kill him. I was just teaching him a lesson.” Better to hit never than to risk going too far - or giving apparent approval for hitting to those who WILL go too far.

This conversation isn’t even rational. You go from a swat on the butt to killing children. I did not stop swatting my child because she got big enough to fight back, I stopped because she stopped the behavior. She was now mature enough to have better self control. I honestly think it got so out of control because I waiting so long to swat. Parenting books had me thinking she’d grow into a monster if I swatted her behind.

This is like saying no one should drink because they might end up an alcoholic. There is such a thing as a moderation and self-control and most parents are perfectly capable of exercising both.

My husband was physically abused by his father. The things he did makes me sick. My husband did have to knock his father flat as a teen to make him stop.

My childhood was polar opposite, my parents didn’t need to spank me because I burst into tears at the first sign of disapproval. My older sister got a few swats as a young child because she was a strong willed child. There were no belts, no beatings, not even a wooden spoon. A production was not made out of it, no over the knee type things. A quick swat to the behind for serious offenses after being told to stop and not listening.

I absolutely do not condone abuse anymore than I condone alcoholism by having an occasional glass of wine.

 

[catharina]

This conversation isn’t even rational. You go from a swat on the butt to killing children. I did not stop swatting my child because she got big enough to fight back, I stopped because she stopped the behavior. She was now mature enough to have better self control. I honestly think it got so out of control because I waiting so long to swat. Parenting books had me thinking she’d grow into a monster if I swatted her behind.

This is like saying no one should drink because they might end up an alcoholic. There is such a thing as a moderation and self-control and most parents are perfectly capable of exercising both.

My husband was physically abused by his father. The things he did makes me sick. My husband did have to knock his father flat as a teen to make him stop.

My childhood was polar opposite, my parents didn’t need to spank me because I burst into tears at the first sign of disapproval. My older sister got a few swats as a young child because she was a strong willed child. There were no belts, no beatings, not even a wooden spoon. A production was not made out of it, no over the knee type things. A quick swat to the behind for serious offenses after being told to stop and not listening.

I absolutely do not condone abuse anymore than I condone alcoholism by having an occasional glass of wine.

Maybe it’s not rational but it’s definitely reasonable. Why do I believe and feel so strongly that physical punishment teaches the wrong kinds of lessons? In part, some of my reasoning is based in what I’ve witnessed on a personal level. Many parents who’ve “accidentally” killed their children (child darted away into traffic to avoid a smack, child ducked to avoid a smack and his head got knocked into a concrete pole). Because you feel justified in hitting a child, that’s between you and God. However, even if you feel justified, please don’t go around recommending it. It’s clear that you haven’t seen what I’ve seen; nonetheless I’ve seen it.

 

[catharina]

What gives me the right? God. He entrusted my husband and I with our daughter, she is our responsibilty.

Why do I not want others physically disciplining my child? Because I love her with every inch of my soul and I (along with my husband) know her better than anyone.

If we decide a physical discipline is in her best interest it is base on our love and our understanding of our child. A stranger or even a relative can not know or feel such things, and God gave her to us to raise -not you or my parents/husband’s parents or anyone else. So it is our right and not yours. I’ve actually only spanked my child less than a dozen times and she is 12 (and I haven’t done it all since she was about 6 or 7), so I do not go around whacking her for every transgression.

I really felt the way you did when I first had my daughter. I read all the parenting books that said spanking a child was hypocritical, teaches violence etc. As a preschooler she grew into an extremely strong willed child and would go into fits like something you’ve never seen. Time outs, reasoning, redirection were impossible. She turned over chairs, threw things and would bite if we tried to physically put her in time out. A firm wack on the butt literally snapped her out of it. Then I would be able to hug her and comfort her. Using corporal punishment at any other time actually only made things worse. That is what I mean by knowing her better than anyone.

Our daughter is growing into a beautiful young lady and we are very proud of her. She doesn’t go around hitting people. She is a sweet, sensitive, respectiveful child. And yes she is a precious gift, which is exactly why we want what’s best for her.

By the way Jesus was God and Mary knew that. He was alsio incapable of sinning and Mary knew that. So what cause would she have to smack him? Out of frustration? That is not a reason to discipline. Our children are not God and very capable of making bad choices. Jesus being in the temple was not a bad choice. It was a choice his parents did not fully understand because he is God and they were not. The bible does not say corporal punishment is morally wrong, quite the opposite.

This is so saddening, as if to imply that Our Blessed Mother would have been hitting children (other than Jesus) to stop them from sinning? Sad, outrageous, disgusting … because one thing leads to another. If you hit your daughter to stop her from sinning, I say “what sin?” You hit your daughter until she was six years old.

Children don’t/can’t sin until they’ve reached the age of reason. That’s seven years old - and that’s one of the few instances where Theology and science shake hands.

Age of reason (beginning of formation of conscience) = 7 yrs old.

 

[snowfly]

There is a line, the way some children carry on with their parents in public is a disgrace, and worse when an adult (18) ETC; and even younger can’t be controlled by a lone woman, let alone both parents.

There is a saying “if you don’t bend the branch when it’s young, you won’t bend it when it’s fully grown” although punishing a child when you’ve lost it may not be a good idea.

But they do need some form of correction as long as it’s not over the top, suffice to say I could take my children anywhere and they were well mannered, they knew better, it didn’t mean I didn’t love them.

So I’ll go with Proverbs…so… NO!

 

[Newbie2]

Yes, I just don’t see what gives the right for any human being to smack another.
I firmly believe this and have three excellent kids who were never spanked, ages 23, 19 and 13. So I guess why mess with success…teachccd

…and my 13 and 16 year olds are doing fine having gotten spanked when they were younger (spanked, not slapped).
And many other families raise great kids while using spanking as discipline. So your point is…???

Again, I agree.

Would you smack your boss for being irritating?
(Etc, etc.)
Children are helpless, vulnerable, without power and at our mercy.
We are gifted with their presence. Who would hit them?

Are we talking about spanking our kids, or slapping other adults who are not within our responsibility to discipline?

Is smacking a child always morally wrong?? In my opinion, YES. And unless all of you who disagree with me would find it o.k. for me to smack your kid then what gives you the right? In fact, I would think that a parent would be the last one to want to physically hit their own child if even a slap on the hand.

Did Mary smack Jesus??

I dunno, maybe she did. Just 'cuz you can’t imagine it happening, doesn’t mean she didn’t find it necessary to give him a whack on the bottom every now and then.

What gives me the right??? My role as my kids dad. My responsibility to discipline my kids as I see fit. My responsibility to see that they don’t put their hand on a hot stove, etc. when they’re being obstinate.

I see parents all the time trying to “reason” with obstinate three year olds. And I wonder who’s the parent.

You should let your kids know this before you babysit. I am not against corporal punishment but I am against anyone besides me or my husband physically disciplining my child.

When my kids are old enough to marry and make babies, they’ll know what the rules are in my house and when I watch them. Since they were brought up that way, I doubt they’ll have any problems with it, and I’ll be sure to rat on them when they misbehave.

As for Our Blessed Mother, I can’t begin to imagine that she would ever strike a child - including any little nieces, nephews, neighbors left in her care for a time. The very thought is untenable.

And how about Joseph?

I raised three children who are upstanding citizens and adhere to our faith as well. I never spanked them and nor did my wife. My second son threw tantrums and drove us to the limits. He is now the best humanity has to offer. He is loving, kind, respects us and authority and loves God with all his heart.

You do not need to spank children. How that worked its way into acceptable behavior is beyond me. And to say that the Bible and Church teach that is rediculous. Quote me Scripture and CCC. And don’t give me the “spare the rod” quote. If you do then pluck out your eye that caused you to sin…teachccd

Good for you. You are a model parent and a saint. The rest of us are hopeless sinners.

The teaching-learning end of “discipline” does not include “punishment” and that’s my point.

Say what?

Plus parents who support the “hitting method” of teaching seem to pull back when children become large enough to defend themselves.

Um, have you considered that as they get older, they’ve learned to listen and don’t need to have their bum swatted?

It’s almost routine for parents and caregivers who kill a child to protest “I never meant to kill him. I was just teaching him a lesson.” Better to hit never than to risk going too far - or giving apparent approval for hitting to those who WILL go too far.

Let’s be realistic, or have we gone from spanking a child’s bum on occasion to commiting genocide?

Pulleeze.

Spanking works for many, not spanking works for many too, if we’re talking about a swat on the bum. It would seem that we’re all in agreement that beating your child to death is probably not a good thing .

Slapping a child across the face, I’d never do. As posted early in this thread, God designed the bum as the place to swat, if you’re going to do so.

 

[dessert]

i think smacking is too wrong and I did do it and that is why I was doing the wrong thing , I didn’t know how to discipline.

Hitting is hitting and that is how the child sees it, and sending them to a corner is rejection that is all the child sees is the rejection. Some children don’t like being hit and some don’t like being rejected and my kids have big problems because of the way I treated them.
LOL take it or leave it, I agree with the OP and others that are against hitting.
D.

 

[Newbie2]

That’s a good point, in that not all kids handle physical discipline the same.

 

[catharina]

Quote:
Originally Posted by catharina
As for Our Blessed Mother, I can’t begin to imagine that she would ever strike a child - including any little nieces, nephews, neighbors left in her care for a time. The very thought is untenable.

Qoute:
from Newbie2
And how about Joseph?

Too sad for words, Newbie2. If you want to justify hitting children, PLEASE do not claim Mary and Joseph as role models for that behavior - unless of course you’re establishing a new religion.

 

[catharina]

Spanking works for many, not spanking works for many too, if we’re talking about a swat on the bum. It would seem that we’re all in agreement that beating your child to death is probably not a good thing .

Sarcasm? Really big yuck.

Slapping a child across the face, I’d never do. As posted early in this thread, God designed the bum as the place to swat, if you’re going to do so. :thumbsup:

Funny thing - I’d always imagined that God cushioned our posteriors so we’d be capable of sitting without our bones poking through our skin. Seems that those who hit children are comfortable knowing a lot about many things? Not.

 

[catharina]

i think smacking is too wrong and I did do it and that is why I was doing the wrong thing , I didn’t know how to discipline.

Hitting is hitting and that is how the child sees it, and sending them to a corner is rejection that is all the child sees is the rejection. Some children don’t like being hit and some don’t like being rejected and my kids have big problems because of the way I treated them.
LOL take it or leave it, I agree with the OP and others that are against hitting.
D.

Good for you for admitting that you’ve been able to learn new things as time passes. Lots of parents get stuck in defensiveness.

 

[Newbie2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by catharina
As for Our Blessed Mother, I can’t begin to imagine that she would ever strike a child - including any little nieces, nephews, neighbors left in her care for a time. The very thought is untenable.

Qoute:
from Newbie2
And how about Joseph?

Too sad for words, Newbie2. If you want to justify hitting children, PLEASE do not claim Mary and Joseph as role models for that behavior - unless of course you’re establishing a new religion.

OK, but PLEASE don’t ascribe words or ideas to me that I didn’t write. Deal? OK? :hug3: Don’t put words in my mouth and I’ll afford you the same courtesy.

I was posing the question. In my experience, dads are the ones who more frequently than moms spank. Perhaps your experience is different. I didn’t bring up the question of Mary’s child rearing techniques. You have absolutely no evidence, church teaching, or tradition to say whether or not Mary or Joseph spanked Jesus; it’s all purely speculation.

I’m not certain whether or not at that time, in that culture, whether moms were the disciplinarian or the dads. I don’t know if they spanked or not. You don’t either. Neither of us know whether or not Jesus needed a swat on the behind to teach him not to touch a hot fire. He was human as well as divine, right?

I guess some day we can ask him in person. If I’m wrong, I’ll buy you a beer. Don’t believe for a minute that in heaven there is no beer.

 

[catharina]

OK, but PLEASE don’t ascribe words or ideas to me that I didn’t write. Deal? OK? :hug3: Don’t put words in my mouth and I’ll afford you the same courtesy.

I was posing the question. In my experience, dads are the ones who more frequently than moms spank. Perhaps your experience is different. I didn’t bring up the question of Mary’s child rearing techniques. You have absolutely no evidence, church teaching, or tradition to say whether or not Mary or Joseph spanked Jesus; it’s all purely speculation.

I’m not certain whether or not at that time, in that culture, whether moms were the disciplinarian or the dads. I don’t know if they spanked or not. You don’t either. Neither of us know whether or not Jesus needed a swat on the behind to teach him not to touch a hot fire. He was human as well as divine, right?

I guess some day we can ask him in person. If I’m wrong, I’ll buy you a beer. Don’t believe for a minute that in heaven there is no beer.

Posing irreverent questions about Mary or Joseph is not my idea of a meaningful exchange. It seems clear that we have different ideas of heaven too: 1) you believe things will be for sale and 2) you believe that I’d accept a bought beer from you. Don’t you think that a sense of reverence counts for an awful lot? I do.

 

[teachccd]

…and my 13 and 16 year olds are doing fine having gotten spanked when they were younger (spanked, not slapped).
And many other families raise great kids while using spanking as discipline. So your point is…???

Good for you. You are a model parent and a saint. The rest of us are hopeless sinners.

.

First off, my point is that I never spanked my kids and they turned out great.

Secondly, your little comment about me being a saint and you a hopeless sinner can be construed as a feeling of self defense. If your parenting skills are up to par then perhaps you are the saint and my “not following the Bible” makes me the sinner.

There is nothing that you can say that will convince me that hitting kids is acceptable behavior. I’m sorry that we don’t see eye to eye on this one but then I’m sure that we may not se eye to eye on other topics as well. That’s what makes the world go round. Unforunately there are those kids whose parents spank them in moments of anger and your point of view is the shadow where they hide. It’s just discipline.

No human being has the right to hit another human being period. Give me all of your fancy rhetoric and justifications but we just don’t hit people. That’s the bottom line. Take away their favorite games or shows but don’t hit them. No little person needs some big person smacking or slapping them. If I cannot hit anyone else in this world without suffering consequences, what gives me the right to hit my children?? And don’t answer God. Jesus never hit anyone. He said,“Let the little children come to me”. And even when they slapped Him, spit on Him, scouraged Him and nailed Him to a Cross, Jesus never hit anyone. Now, why should we??

May God bless all the little children of the world and allow us to continue seeing them as our most precious gifts. If this computer acts up, I don’t smack it. I find the source of the problem and work on it. How much more precious are our children??

God Bless…teachccd