Is the Mass Biblical?

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mlchance:

How convenient, if not quite self-serving, that you have such eyes, whereas the rest of us much content ourselves by trusting in the authority of the Church that Christ Jesus established.

– Mark L. Chance.

This and many similar comments remind me of what happened in 1 Kings 22…

“Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, “How did the Spirit of the LORD pass from me to speak to you?”” ( 1 Kings 22:24 )

True Christians are always being struck like this by those who want to believe whatever they want…

But in the end, it is what Micaiah said that happened, and all those prophets were wrong although they SINCERELY believed that what they were saying is God’s Word…

Read 1 Kings 22, and you will know what I mean.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Katholikos]

YAQUBOS:

Read the Scripture, and you will see how He interprets His Scripture. That’s why God gave you His Word. His Word is INFALLIBLE.

The Scripture (the Bible) is a collection of writings – written by different people at different times and locations, for different audiences and purposes. Who wrote them, and why? Who collected them, and when? Who formed these writings into one ‘book’ and named them “the Bible”? (“The Bible” means “the books.”)

What is the Bible? (Hint: it’s not an instruction book in Christianity.)

The Bible doesn’t claim – neither in its individual ‘books’ nor collectively – to be “the Word of God.” Nor does it claim to be “infallible.” Therefore, how do you know this?

The Bible, being an inanimate object, cannot vouch for itself. Who vouches for it? Who says it is “the Word of God”? Who says that it is “infallible”? Who told you that a letter from the Presbyter John to his friend Gaius is the inspired Word of God, but that the letter of Barnabas, companion of Paul, isn’t? Or that a letter to a slave owner is the inspired Word of God, but that Clement’s letter to the Corinthians isn’t? Who is your authority?

There is more than one collection of writings. Different Christian groups have different Bibles. Which one – if any – is the ‘Word of God’? How do you know?

gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/canon.stm

What good is an “infallible” book without an “infallible interpreter”?
We know from the thousands of Protestant denominations – all based on the same incomplete, 66-book version of the Bible that was cut by Martin Luther – that it can be, and is!, interpreted thousands of different ways.

Protestants believe that the Holy Spirit guides each individual to “all truth” in interpreting the Bible. Has the Holy Spirit guided thousands of different people to thousands of different answers to the same questions? Or, if the Holy Spirit isn’t guiding everyone, how do you know He’s guiding you?

Peace be with you.

JMJ Jay
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

God. Read the Scripture, and you will see how He interprets His Scripture.

That’s why God gave you His Word. His Word is INFALLIBLE.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

1. We Catholics read the Scripture. The Church prays the Scripture EVERY SINGLE DAY. The usual arrogant fundie mindset is that “oh Catholocs are soooo ignorant of the Scriptures, they don’t read the Scriptures at all.” HAH! The usual load of ignorant claptrap.
2. The Word of God is not INFALLIBLE. The Word of God is INERRANT. What’s the difference? Figure that out first before you resume your preaching.
3. The fine folks here have provided good BIBLICAL answers to your original post. You never address them, and instead change to a seemingly related but different subject.

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

How convenient to SUPPOSE that I have such eyes, while I just believe what God says:

“But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.” ( 1 John 2:20 )

“We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ This is the true God and eternal life.” ( 1 John 5:19-20 )

You don’t have to continue in your uncertain thoughts. You can KNOW Him TODAY. He is the Truth.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Believe me. Faithful Catholics are NOT THE LEAST BIT UNCERTAIN of their knowledge of Christ. Drop your notions that we are ignorant of the Bible, stop patronizing, and for heaven’s sakes, give us some credit. You sound from your posts like you think you’re talking to a bunch of idiots.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

2. The Word of God is not INFALLIBLE. The Word of God is INERRANT. What’s the difference? Figure that out first before you resume your preaching.

As we are not here to discuss about the Scripture, so I will not stay long on this subject. It is clear that everytime unbelievers cannot prove something from the Bible, they turn to attack the Word of God…

Whatever… Let’s just say that the Word of God is infallible AND inerrant…

[quote="porthos11]3. The fine folks here have provided good BIBLICAL answers to your original post. You never address them, and instead change to a seemingly related but different subject.
[/quote]

Is the Eucharist the SAME Sacrifice as that of the Cross?

This is in fact the topic of this thread.

If it is not the same as that of the Cross, so you are believing in many Sacrifices. And this contradicts Hebrews.

Now if I want to see according to what the Eucharist is the SAME Sacrifice as that of the Cross, you will accuse me of changing the topic?

You think that I am not addressing them. But in fact what I asked here about the ONE Sacrifice made them think well about what wrong teachings they are following…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

porthos11:

Believe me. Faithful Catholics are NOT THE LEAST BIT UNCERTAIN of their knowledge of Christ. Drop your notions that we are ignorant of the Bible, stop patronizing, and for heaven’s sakes, give us some credit. You sound from your posts like you think you’re talking to a bunch of idiots.

Who said that I am talking here to Catholics?

I am talking here to everyone who wants to hear the Word of God.

When you put some people in a category called “Catholics”, you show by that your ignorance about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Katholikos]

Here’s a link to Scott Hahn’s website, St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology.

salvationhistory.com/

Most of us know that Dr. Scott Hahn is
a former Presbyterian pastor, scripture scholar, and convert to Catholicism. He teaches biblical theology and related coursework now at Franciscan University in Ohio, and is the author of many Catholic books, audio tapes, and videos. He is one of the most persuasive Catholic voices in America. Hundreds of Protestant ministers have entered the Catholic Church because of his influence.

Here’s a direct link to his online course on The Bible and The Mass, and a paragraph from the introduction:

QUOTE
The Bible was made for the Liturgy and the Liturgy is where the Bible was meant to be proclaimed, expounded, interpreted and “heard.” That’s why, from the Sign of the Cross and the priest’s greeting: “The Lord be with you,” the Mass is one long biblical prayer - a tapestry woven from a fabric of biblical passages, phrases and allusions. This is no accident. In the Mass, the story of salvation told in the Bible continues - is made real and present - in our lives.

salvationhistory.com/online/beginner/begcourse2_home.cfm
JMJ Jay

 

[porthos11]

So, I’m an unbeliever now huh? Do you apply that tag to all those who believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass?

YAQUBOS:

Is the Eucharist the SAME Sacrifice as that of the Cross?

This is in fact the topic of this thread.

If it is not the same as that of the Cross, so you are believing in many Sacrifices. And this contradicts Hebrews.

No, No, No. This has been said MANY times.

Now if I want to see according to what the Eucharist is the SAME Sacrifice as that of the Cross, you will accuse me of changing the topic?

You think that I am not addressing them. But in fact what I asked here about the ONE Sacrifice made them think well about what wrong teachings they are following…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

You aren’t addressing them. Didn’t you even see the explanations earlier on anamnesis? John 6 is the reason we believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and Jesus’ command to “do this in memory [anamnesis] of me” is where it says it is the same Sacrifice of the Cross, because anamnesis makes the event present, as the ancient Jews understood. The Passover was always understood as anamnesis. Is this something you can understand? Think like an ancient Jew. Anamnesis transcends space and time, but your thinking doesn.t

See the previous posts. Because of those posts you cannot say we haven’t responded to your challenge.

 

[RBushlow]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

In each doctrine, you accept the interpretation of SOME fathers, because they didn’t always agree in everything.

As for me, I prefer to see the interpretation of God in His Word.

The Word is clear for those who have eyes to see.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Peace be with you also!

And we all pray for you that the Holy Spirit will give you eyes to see and ears to hear.

God Bless and lead you into the Church that Jesus founded.

 

[Luke1_48]

Yo! Maybe this is just me, but this thread is off topic. If everyone’s going to talk about the Eucharist, then it needs to be a new thread.

 

[Adam_S]

True Christians are always being struck like this by those who want to believe whatever they want…

When you put some people in a category called “Catholics”, you show by that your ignorance about the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

As we are not here to discuss about the Scripture, so I will not stay long on this subject. It is clear that everytime unbelievers cannot prove something from the Bible, they turn to attack the Word of God…

I havent contributed to this thread before, but i have read it with great interest. Yaquba, you seem to be a very rude person from what you have posted in this thread. First of all, despite all your 'Peace be with you’s and 'in love’s, it is quite clear you are here to start a fight, not to learn anything.

This board if for discussion and to learn, not to have a fight, which is what you are clearly doing calling people ‘unbelievers’ ‘ignorant’ and all sorts of other offensive things, best of all was calling Catholics arrogant earlier in the board - this coming from the person that believes their interpretation of the bible over 2000 years of study, enlightenment and prayer from the church - you couldnt make it up!

You are also rude because so many kind people on this board have gone into great detail to inform you what Catholics believe, and various resources on the Mass and sacrifice - all to help you. In fact this massive thread was to help you understand, and yet ive watched you slowly turn this into an anti-Catholic inquisition, which was quite clear to most that you would, but i think people credited you with more courtesy than that. It was a shame to see you fall off into this, starting with your post that started off with “The Roman Church” -always a starter for an anti-Catholic rant.

There are ways to have inter-faith dialogue, in fact if you look at this part of the board you will see many people of other denominations flying round, asking questions and generally getting along quite nicely. I have a few protestant friends myself, and dialogue never turns aggressive, mainly as well all listen to each other. You dont listen, massive posts in response to a question have been completely disregarded by yourself, and then a few posts later youll ask the question again, when trying to get off from another question you didnt like the answer to.

It is quite clear you arent here to learn, or even to contrast beliefs, you are here to have a fight. I dont agree with Protestantism - so unless i want to know something specifically (as you started out with your thread) i would go on a Prot. board and ask, but i wouldnt go on and start a fight.

Of course im sure in your head, you arent starting a fight, you think you are spreading the truth, and that truth is the interpretation according to Yaquba…and you call us arrogant!

I know youll never pay attention to anything that disagrees with your interpretation of things, but please ask yourself one question, “If i disagree with Catholicism so much, and im not prepared to accept or learn anything, why am i spending so much time here?” Before i became a Catholic, i used to try and get into fights with Christians, later i wondered why it all got me so angry - i later realised it was because they had a point, and i couldnt argue with it without getting childish and ignoring what they had to say. Im not assuming that applies to you, but maybe its something for you to thing about??

Good luck, i know you really mean well

Adam S

 

[porthos11]

Adam S:

Good luck, i know you really mean well

Adam S

Hi Adam,

Your charity is admirable, bit I wouldn’t give him that much credit. I think you’re right; he’s just here to start a fight, but unlike some of the more genuine fundamentalists on the board, he sweetcoats it with his “in loves” and “peace be with you” before slapping you with labels. I don’t believe he means well at all.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

porthos11:

You aren’t addressing them. Didn’t you even see the explanations earlier on anamnesis? John 6 is the reason we believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and Jesus’ command to “do this in memory [anamnesis] of me” is where it says it is the same Sacrifice of the Cross, because anamnesis makes the event present, as the ancient Jews understood. The Passover was always understood as anamnesis. Is this something you can understand? Think like an ancient Jew. Anamnesis transcends space and time, but your thinking doesn.t

See the previous posts. Because of those posts you cannot say we haven’t responded to your challenge.

Is John 6:53 a part of John 6?

Well, my question is: how can you be worthy BEFORE eating the bread and drinking the cup?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Luke1:48:

Yo! Maybe this is just me, but this thread is off topic. If everyone’s going to talk about the Eucharist, then it needs to be a new thread.

This topic is: Is the Mass Biblical?

Tell me if I am wrong: the Mass is the name you give to the Eucharist, no?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Adam S:

I havent contributed to this thread before, but i have read it with great interest. Yaquba, you seem to be a very rude person from what you have posted in this thread. First of all, despite all your 'Peace be with you’s and 'in love’s, it is quite clear you are here to start a fight, not to learn anything.

This board if for discussion and to learn, not to have a fight, which is what you are clearly doing calling people ‘unbelievers’ ‘ignorant’ and all sorts of other offensive things, best of all was calling Catholics arrogant earlier in the board - this coming from the person that believes their interpretation of the bible over 2000 years of study, enlightenment and prayer from the church - you couldnt make it up!

You are also rude because so many kind people on this board have gone into great detail to inform you what Catholics believe, and various resources on the Mass and sacrifice - all to help you. In fact this massive thread was to help you understand, and yet ive watched you slowly turn this into an anti-Catholic inquisition, which was quite clear to most that you would, but i think people credited you with more courtesy than that. It was a shame to see you fall off into this, starting with your post that started off with “The Roman Church” -always a starter for an anti-Catholic rant.

There are ways to have inter-faith dialogue, in fact if you look at this part of the board you will see many people of other denominations flying round, asking questions and generally getting along quite nicely. I have a few protestant friends myself, and dialogue never turns aggressive, mainly as well all listen to each other. You dont listen, massive posts in response to a question have been completely disregarded by yourself, and then a few posts later youll ask the question again, when trying to get off from another question you didnt like the answer to.

It is quite clear you arent here to learn, or even to contrast beliefs, you are here to have a fight. I dont agree with Protestantism - so unless i want to know something specifically (as you started out with your thread) i would go on a Prot. board and ask, but i wouldnt go on and start a fight.

Of course im sure in your head, you arent starting a fight, you think you are spreading the truth, and that truth is the interpretation according to Yaquba…and you call us arrogant!

I know youll never pay attention to anything that disagrees with your interpretation of things, but please ask yourself one question, “If i disagree with Catholicism so much, and im not prepared to accept or learn anything, why am i spending so much time here?” Before i became a Catholic, i used to try and get into fights with Christians, later i wondered why it all got me so angry - i later realised it was because they had a point, and i couldnt argue with it without getting childish and ignoring what they had to say. Im not assuming that applies to you, but maybe its something for you to thing about??

Good luck, i know you really mean well

Adam S

Did you need to write all this to say that there is no answer to the question: how can we be worthy before eating the bread and drinking the cup?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Who thinks I am calling him/her ignorant or unbeliever?

Whoever he/she is, he/she is not getting anything from all this.

I am saying all that to those who don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God. Is there anyone here who doesn’t believe the Bible is the Word of God?

If there is anyone like that, then let him/her try to understand what I am doing here, in the light of what Jesus did with the Pharisees…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[mercygate]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Is John 6:53 a part of John 6?

Well, my question is: how can you be worthy BEFORE eating the bread and drinking the cup?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

We are made worthy through Baptism.

Earlier you posit:

YAQUBOS:

When we talk about the Eucharist, we are still talking about the passages of Hebrews, because, according to human philosophies, the Eucharist is the SAME Sacrifice as that of the Cross. Don’t we have to understand according to which biblical clear principle the Eucharist is the SAME Sacrifice??? Can’t we mention the fact that this philosophy is contradicting the clear message of our Lord in John 6:53?

Two questions here, YAQUBOS:

1. I do not understand either the grammar or the intent of your sentence, which I have put in bold type; can you clarify it please?
2. Somehow, I don’t understand why the idea that the Eucharist mystically participates in the once-for-all Sacrifice of Christ in any contradicts John 6:53 – or for that matter, relates to John 6:53 in any way. Maybe you can connect the dots for me?

 

[Luke1_48]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

This topic is: Is the Mass Biblical?

Tell me if I am wrong: the Mass is the name you give to the Eucharist, no?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

YAQUBOS, my bro, the mass is the western name for the divine liturgy. The liturgy is two parts, the first part is the liturgy of the word, the second is the liturgy of the Eucharist. The Eucharist itself is not the mass.

 

[Luke1_48]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Is John 6:53 a part of John 6?

Well, my question is: how can you be worthy BEFORE eating the bread and drinking the cup?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

My bro, you don’t understand our teachings. The Eucharist is not necessary to be saved, it helps us though. A baptized person could never recieve the Eucharist once and still be saved, but it is not recommended. Each time a person recieves the Eucharist they get stronger and stronger at fighting sin. The Eucharist does bring us to life because it aids us, but it is not necessary, baptism is though. When someone sins, they lose life, but when they go to confession and then recieve the Eucharist, they regain it. A baptized child who never recieved their first communion can still enter Heaven, as long as they are not guilty of mortal sin.

 

[porthos11]

We are never worthy by ourselves. If you know anything abou the Mass you’ll see that we make the words of the Centurion our own: “Lord I am not worthy to receive you.”

But we go on to say…

“but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.”

So how do we receive Jesus worthily in the Eucharist? By remaining in his grace (that is, his healing of our souls through justification) and not falling into grave sin, otherwise we fall into the trap St. Paul warned us about: we eat and drink our own condemnation.